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Author Topic: Occupy Wall Street
TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted October 05, 2011 19:57      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Occupy Wall Street, does any one know their agenda?

What is their end goal?

Are they the start of an Anti-Tea Party?

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted October 05, 2011 23:18      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
http://occupywallst.org/

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted October 05, 2011 23:32      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
They want their jobs back. They want their 401Ks back. They want their college savings back. They want their cost-of-living-adjustments and raises back. They want something in return for the taxes they pay. And since they know who's in charge, they're marching on Wall St. instead of the Capitol.

I'm impressed. I thought we'd have to fall much, much lower before something like this happened.

ETA: this could all end rather abruptly if good jobs (ie, the kind that pays better than minimum wage and comes with benefits) started reappearing. There's a reason why FDR implemented the CCC during the Great Depression. Idle hands breed revolutions.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted October 06, 2011 00:21      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
They want something in return for the taxes they pay.

A very good point.

The total tax burden in Merkinistan is about the same as here in Oz, but you get so much less for it.

One aircraft carrier would pay for an awful lot of hospital beds...

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted October 06, 2011 00:42      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
They want something in return for the taxes they pay.

A very good point.

The total tax burden in Merkinistan is about the same as here in Oz, but you get so much less for it.

One aircraft carrier would pay for an awful lot of hospital beds...

...and Kristof of NYT has also written that we could get a lot more bang for our buck by educating folks in .iq instead of blowing things up. Then perhaps we could spend less blood & treasure over there, and rebuild *here.*

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted October 06, 2011 06:18      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Being a partial history buff, I have been watching the parallels to the French Revolution.

Much later than that just prior to the First world War.

The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.
Anatole France, The Red Lily, 1894, chapter 7
French novelist (1844 - 1924)

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted October 06, 2011 11:28      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Historically, societies where the wealth is too unevenly distributed do not sustain. You'd think that, over time, we'd remember that lesson...

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted October 08, 2011 22:35      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Forbes did a survey of the people who are occupying Wall Street. Here are the results. It seems as though the people there are of a surprisingly similar mindset.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted October 09, 2011 01:32      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Can't say I'm surprised.

People who are aimless don't spend >two weeks in the streets, getting arrested and beat on by cops. Don't let the propagandists convince you otherwise.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted October 09, 2011 07:36      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The "L Curve of wealth distribution."

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zesovietrussian
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Icon 1 posted October 09, 2011 18:38      Profile for zesovietrussian     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
They want their jobs back. They want their 401Ks back. They want their college savings back. They want their cost-of-living-adjustments and raises back. They want something in return for the taxes they pay. And since they know who's in charge, they're marching on Wall St. instead of the Capitol.

I'm impressed. I thought we'd have to fall much, much lower before something like this happened.

ETA: this could all end rather abruptly if good jobs (ie, the kind that pays better than minimum wage and comes with benefits) started reappearing. There's a reason why FDR implemented the CCC during the Great Depression. Idle hands breed revolutions.

Wait, where did you see those? Up here it's mostly a bunch of trustafarian hipsters with $500 freitag messenger bags and $3000 custom-made messenger bikes who do it because it's the "in" thing right now.
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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted October 10, 2011 04:32      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
They'll all go home when the snow comes.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted October 17, 2011 13:13      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Will they?

Me Thinks that true campaign reform might help. Like all Candidates must reveal all donors, so the voters will know who the candidate owes favors too.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted October 17, 2011 16:52      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
Me Thinks that true campaign reform might help. Like all Candidates must reveal all donors, so the voters will know who the candidate owes favors too.

Won't help.

Remember when Boehner handed out tobacco bribe cheques on the floor of Congress just before an important vote on Tobacco subsidies ?

Did Republican voters dump him in anger that that blatant corruption?

Tribal Loyalty counts for more than principles.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted October 17, 2011 18:58      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TheMoMan wrote:
Me Thinks that true campaign reform might help. Like all Candidates must reveal all donors, so the voters will know who the candidate owes favors too.

For the most part, that information is already available.

At the federal level, politicians are already required by law to disclose all PACs and party committees that give them contributions. The law also requires that they provide the names, occupations, employers and addresses of all individuals who give them more than $200 in an election cycle.

Here's the official site and Here's OpenSecrets.org, which has the same information with a more user friendly interface.

The loophole would be donors who give less than $200, but I don't think many politicians would give favors for donations that small.

In my honest opinion, true reform will only happen when it's the last possible thing that can be done to avert rioting and violence. The Wall Street protests are relatively peaceful for now, but that's only because we don't have enough starving people with nothing to lose.

The rich get richer every day and that money comes from somewhere. The real unemployment rate isn't budging and has actually gone up. The 99% have less and less every day.

When large numbers of well-fed people are taking to the streets to protest, something is seriously wrong. When the impoverished who have nothing to lose join the well-fed protesters, or the well-fed become become impoverished themselves, things will change or be changed. Hopefully we can find a less bloody solution than the French did.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted October 18, 2011 06:10      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
For the non Merkins sorry, Try to find out who Americans for prosperity bankrolls their ads, SIX Billion dollars was handed out to make sure that Big Medical/Pharmacological did not get hurt.

Who pays for the fund raising dinners? The plate cost goes to the candidate, but who footed the bills?

We know about Soros/Koch who else is shoving money at "K Street".

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted October 19, 2011 16:57      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
 -

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted October 19, 2011 18:26      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted October 23, 2011 09:17      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 


Like we did not know this?


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Erbo
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Icon 1 posted October 23, 2011 23:31      Profile for Erbo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The "demands" raised by the "Occupy $PLACE" people vary, but they range from the ones that are not only quite reasonable, but should have happened years ago ("Stop the looting and start prosecuting!") to ones that are completely screaming over-the-top-and-down-the-other-side looney ("$20/hour minimum wage! And we want it even if we don't have a job!") Since the groups claim to be leaderless, virtually anyone can claim to speak for it, which can explain the huge disparity.

Karl Denninger, who I've mentioned a number of times here, has looked at the OWS movement and written about it a few times...and what he's found may surprise you.

Here, he noted that "this time, it's different"--people weren't just protesting and going home, they were staying...and forming impromptu congresses at which they were discussing, debating, and voting on their ideas.

He notes that the White House is getting nervous.

More than that, he actually traveled out to visit the Occupy Pensacola group and noted that he couldn't seem to find any Marxists (or not many), despite what conservative pundits have been saying. (He couldn't find them here either. But he allows there might be a few.)

What he found was this:
quote:
OWS looks like exactly what it appeared to be from 20,000 feet, despite the claims of many in the media and other so-called "punditry." It's a group of very pissed-off ordinary citizens who [...] know damn well they got serially screwed, but they're not sure exactly how.

They know who did it though, and have identified the correct targets for their wrath.
[emphasis Denninger's]

He also found the so-called "99 Percent Declaration," and commented on it. In a nutshell: Some of the proposals in that document are good, some are bad, and some are well-intentioned but not quite workable as they stand.

Now, where is it all going? In this post, Denninger offers one of two possibilities: Either somebody will get stupid and get violent, in which case the group will lose any and all support from "the people" (as well they should)...or they will hang together long enough to actually coalesce around a core set of ideas. In that case, they'll become a genuine political force...and may very well become a new political party. And, if that happens, one of the existing parties may well splinter and die. Which one? That's almost a toss-up right now.

I'm not as sanguine as Denninger that the movement won't be co-oped by Marxists and other hard-left types, much as the Tea Party has been co-opted by the Establishment GOP. Marxists have always looked for "useful idiots" to carry the ball for them, and this time may be no different. In addition, there's some indication that internal dissent may be straining what organization there is in OWS.

Nonetheless, it's too early to dismiss them out of hand. They may be onto something; if they can coalesce around a couple of things most everyone should agree on, like "upholding the rule of law" and "those who committed fraud should go to prison and give back their ill-gotten gains," while maintaining their independence from those on both sides who want to use them as convenient pawns, I'd be more inclined to get behind them. For now, I'm taking a "wait and see" approach.

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See more From The Erbo Files: www.erbosoft.com/blog/

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted October 24, 2011 07:13      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Being retired I have plenty of time to read/watch news stories, most of the talking heads do not have a clue.

Change if it comes must come from the boards of directors of public held companies, they must demand a better ROI.

Then the prosecutors must step up and do their jobs.

Then all ballots must be marked such that voters can see who is the incumbent. Most people are too lazy to research the candidates.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted October 25, 2011 19:09      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I've always liked old-style propaganda posters

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Icon 1 posted October 26, 2011 17:03      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I liked this quote I read today regarding the Occupy movement:

quote:
Don’t worry about endorsing the Occupy Wall Street movement (all the diverse elements involved wouldn’t even endorse each other!), but rather engage it.
Jim Wallis of Sojourners

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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zesovietrussian
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Icon 1 posted October 26, 2011 20:49      Profile for zesovietrussian     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That's more like it.
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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted October 26, 2011 22:42      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by zesovietrussian:
That's more like it.

quote:
From TFA:
"I am responsible for my own destiny," writes one 34-year-old father of three. "I will succeed or fail because of me and me alone."

Couldn't ask for a more eloquent illustration of the wrongness of the "53%"† position.

No-one succeeds, or fails, because of "me and me alone".

You're a success?

Great, congratulations.

Now thank the teacher who taught you to read, the parents who supported you for more than half your life, and the entire society who paid for the roads you use to get your products to market, the schools to provide an educated workforce, and the police force to stop the marauding hoards from stealing everything you have.

This "me and me alone" bizzo is bullshit.

† the "53%" is those who pay federal income taxes, which account for about 1/3 of total taxes paid in the USA, most of the other taxes (eg sales taxes) are paid by everyone, so the "47%" are NOT getting a free ride. Oh, and about half of the "47%" are retirees who probably paid income taxes their whole working life - give your granddad a break.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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