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Author Topic: Wondering how other GC'ers feel about this
davor
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Icon 1 posted May 31, 2006 10:08      Profile for davor   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I am not a racist! However, if someone is going to immigrate in a foreign country does not matter what religion is in question, I think that someone has to assimilate in the new country, the society by learning the langyage properly, excepting the values of the country where the person has immigrated etc. Of course, they should not forget about their culture and stuff but there are so many people who live in the foreign countries and saying they are let's say not Americans, Australians etc. then they are saying: " I am Chinese", I am Mexican, Lebanese and so forth. I think that is not how it supposed to be. Everyone who wants to go and live outside their countries of origin, should accept their new country as truly their own.

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TMBWITW,PB

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Icon 1 posted May 31, 2006 13:04      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by garlicguy:
ARTICLE V:
You do not have the right to free health care. That would be nice, but
from the looks of public housing, we're just not interested in public
health care.

You americans are a bunch of sickos !

/me is a big fan of the aussie public health care system (with all its faults)

Personally, I find it interesting that the people who are so against socialized healthcare have no problem whatsoever with, and even want more funding for, socialized education.

As an American living without health insurance (because my husband's job doesn't offer it and we certainly can't afford the $300-$500/month for a family policy) I would love to have a public health program and know that if one of us got into an accident we wouldn't be paying for it until we're 90.

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"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it may be necessary from time to time to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye."
ŚMiss Piggy

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 31, 2006 14:56      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by the Woofy the Wonder-troll:
States willingly joined "the Union."
...followed by...
I guess the other possibility is that he believes: "Nothing should change as a result of war."

Conclusion: In ASSMs mind (to use the term loosely) a military invasion of your country counts as "willingly" joining the United States.


By His "Logic" (... should be exclusively Spanish speaking...)
No, by docos, I was pointing out his logical error.

I did say he was deliberately misinterpreting someone when he said this.
... pot ... kettle ...

I apologise to the GC community for breaking my "Ignore the trolling fsckwit" rule, thus giving Woofy the Wonder-troll an excuse to have another rant, I was tired and grumpy from a headache, it won't happen again.

A55H0LE: please go stick a wombat up your arse.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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ASM65816
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Icon 2 posted May 31, 2006 18:08      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TFD, you must be truly clueless. There are over 150 wars listed for 1800 to 1899 (Wikipedia), but you're able to reach the conclusion that is United States was different from all the other wars (because the US is evil). One item listed is "French Invasion of Mexico" (1862-1867), but I know you would never condemn that war with the same anger.

TFD, you're a hypocrite for condemning the US "capture" of territory, but ignoring the other countries in a century where there were over 150 wars, and every war could be viewed as "capturing" territory.

Second, you're still a hypocrite, because you condemn the idea that the US would make English the official language, but you find it perfectly acceptable that Spanish became the regional language after "Spain colonized the territory during the late 1700s." You have to be insane if you believe that people switched from their native languages to Spanish as a result of conquistador peace and love.

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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ARJ
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Icon 1 posted May 31, 2006 19:07      Profile for ARJ   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by davor:
I am not a racist! However, if someone is going to immigrate in a foreign country does not matter what religion is in question, I think that someone has to assimilate in the new country, the society by learning the langyage properly, excepting the values of the country where the person has immigrated etc. Of course, they should not forget about their culture and stuff but there are so many people who live in the foreign countries and saying they are let's say not Americans, Australians etc. then they are saying: " I am Chinese", I am Mexican, Lebanese and so forth. I think that is not how it supposed to be. Everyone who wants to go and live outside their countries of origin, should accept their new country as truly their own.

I am an American. I have American citizenship. I live in Australia as a permanent resident. I am not an Australian citizen and don't consider myself exclusively Australian. I am in the process of applying for Australian citizenship. Once that process is complete, I will be both an American and an Australian. Personally I see no problem with that-- neither do I see a problem with a Chinese person moving to America and still considering themselves Chinese. Where we live does not define who we are. We define that for ourselves. I will still be indelibly American and I will still have an American accent in my voice and carry the American values that I believe in with me no matter where I go, because that was a part of my life growing up. I will also adopt Australianisms (I say tomahto now instead of tomayto and spell it "colour" etc) along the way because that is part of my life now as I continue to grow.

Granted, I do not believe that a foreigner should have a sense of entitlement that their language and culture will be especially upheld or recognised or available outside their home countries, but I think you have to be careful when you talk about identity and how people identify themselves. It's all well and good to say people shouldn't "forget their culture and stuff" but we're speaking of deeply personal issues here. I hesitate to support "assimilation" because, at its extreme end, it suggests a homogenisation that I'm not ultimately comfortable with.

Having grown up in conservative Southern California, I have seen very arrogant attitudes toward immigrants from other countries (including Latino and Asian). Most of those attitudes include the opinion that everyone should speak English when they come to the US and act like Americans and fit in. They seem like attitudes spawned out of fear and misunderstanding to me, from people who wanted others to conform but weren't willing to go out of their own way to aid them in doing so.

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Katie West: Well done steak? Really?

Warren Ellis: Yes. Because MAN COOK MEAT WITH FIRE UNTIL IT NO CRY ANY MORE THEN EAT IT DEAD

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted May 31, 2006 20:17      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My, this is a fun topic, is it not?

That "Preamble" bit that I copied and put up here is so shot full of holes as to be laughable. First off, it is a parody of the Bill of Rights and has nothing to do with the Preamble.

Then there's the obligatory name-calling. Bedwetters? Go ahead, call your opponent a Liberal or a Democrat or whatever they would gladly label themselves - no problem. But then we add bedwetters? What the hell is that?

The public health issue would make sense if the author had merely said something to the effect that we don't have it presently for the existing citizenry thus it is unreasonable to demand it for newcomers.

The language issue is hackneyed. As one of the Brits pointed out, what we refer to as 'English' here in the USA would be better named something else. Personally, I like the term "Yank-speak" and hereby enter my motion for making it the official name of the predominant language of the land. Our language is such a conglomeration and bastardization of so many others that I fail to see how mixing in a little more Spanish will make much difference. But I cannot recommend a switch to the Spanish language (or whatever version of that original that is actually in use around these parts). That's just ridiculous.

Finally, in case some didn't read what was earlier written, that parody was posted in the interest of the discussion. I do not necessarily agree with its content nor its author.

gg

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I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted May 31, 2006 21:25      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
I apologise to the GC community for breaking my "Ignore the trolling fsckwit" rule, thus giving Woofy the Wonder-troll an excuse to have another rant, I was tired and grumpy from a headache, it won't happen again.

It's alright, TFD, we actually like you. [Wink]

The troll, however, you'd think would get a clue and leave already.

I just stopped reading his posts entirely.

I long for a public ignore user script.

If I had time, I'd write a greasemonkey script to specifically ignore that idiot, and release it here. Then he could talk at himself all he liked. Unfortunately, I don't.

Does anyone else have the time? I'd be eternally grateful.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted May 31, 2006 21:30      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
There's been some rather off-topic discussion with regards to how states get/got added to the US. This should help with some of the confusion. And add some more - it looks like a really arbitrary sort of process. The Constitution basically left it all up to Congress and Congress seems to take it on a case by case basis.

As far as I can tell, it works like this. We start with a territory we acquired by some means. Maybe we conquered it, maybe we bought it, maybe it was just sorta there and we claimed it. Or maybe they wanted to be taken in (Texas after it won independence from Mexico and Hawaii after the sugar-growers staged a coup). This territory is more or less a colony of the US. The citizens do not share the same status as people born in real states, they don't have full representation in Congress, etc. When there's enough people living in this territory, the territorial government can apporach Congress about becoming a state. COngress then lays out what it wants to see form the territory, such as a State Constitution and a desire from the peopel to join the Union. When this has been accomplished, COngress acts again and we've got a new state.

The last states added were Hawaii and Alaska in 1950. Every now and then Puerto Rico gets a a chance to put statehood to a vote and they always vote it down. I'm not so sure about our other territories out in the Pacific and in the Carribean.

In a nutshell: US territories become states because they want to. However, whether said territory wanted to become part of the US in the first place is debatable.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
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YaYawoman

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Icon 1 posted June 01, 2006 04:51      Profile for YaYawoman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi everyone. Well I apologize in advance for this post. It will ramble on a bit and I am also feeling a bit rancid this morning. I am going to vent just a tiny bit. Feel free to flay me in response. It will probably make me feel better.(is there such a thing as a reverse-troll? [Wink] )
Oh yeah, one more thing I would like to say before I really get into the nitty gritty. Thank you all for your input. Lots of different things to consider and think about and balance and we did it with a minimum of crap. yay!!

This morning I woke up very early. CNN was on in the background as I puttered around. They had a news blurb about Delphi, the parts supplier that GM spun off. They have announced 33,000 jobs will be sent overseas. China, indonesia and India will be the main recipients. Only 6,000 jobs are projected to remain stateside. Those will be management jobs.(And to really rub seasalt into that gaping wound they will give out 100 million dollars worth of retention bonuses to top management over this downsizing period grrrrr) This will have an impact on me within the next 1 to 3 years. I work in a factory whose main chunk of change comes from supplying the suppliers. Top management has recently bought the company with an outside capital group and especially at this time the company I work for will be very vulnerable. Which means I will be vulnerable too.(in my amateur business opinion)

Before anyone gets wired,tweaked or twisted, I understand that globalization is a force that is here to stay and that we all better getused to it and adapt as best we can and position ourselves as much as possible to survive.

How does this post link into the immigration debate of this thread? Because immigration will squeeze the people at my end of the pay scale. Yes, I am one of the bottomfeeders. (warning here comes the rancid part)

As an adult I have held these jobs that immigrants are entering and doing for far less money than native born citizens. I have been a dishwasher in a diner,I have worked many retail jobs, I have worked as an aide in nursinghomes and I have worked in daycare, roofer's helper,waitress, bartender. The current job I have now has been traditionaly the sort of job that someone with only a high school diploma could support themselves and their family on. It is only in the last 3 years that I have reached the bottom rung of the blue collar ladder and soon this job will blow away due to forces outside my personal control.

I am one of the lucky ones though. I am smart enough to see the writing on the wall and smart enough to realize the need to go back to shcool, and I have the ability to learn. This end of the population there are many many people who will never be able to make that adjustment. Not everyone is college material(I imagine there are plenty of people in college right now that are not college material) Not everyone has the intelligence or ability to get a college degree. In previous generations that was acknowledged and was not as much of a problem as it is now. There were plenty of ways to support yourself and a family with a living wage without a degree and/or a "careeer". Now that world is dying, if not already dead.

I am saving money like mad to go back to school (student loans are not an option for me due to issues that are a bit too embarrassing to get into here) School will be coming out of my pocket. I have decided on a para-legal certification I will be able to receive within two years and I will also take spanish classes. The way I figure it, blue collar manufacturing jobs are blowing away. Might as well go for a growth industry. There will be a projected 40 million increase in immigrants if the Senate bill is made law(and that is a government number, so I figure they probably screwed it up and underestimated hahaha)and if that 40 million people go for the citizenship I will be able to make a living for at least the next 20 years. Also under the bill the immigrants will be required to take english classes to attain citizenship so you know darn well there will be lots of storefront "english" schools popping up. If you cant beat 'em, make money off of em.

I realize that sounds so cold and bottom line. But then I remind myself when I washed your dishes they were damn well clean and you never ever had to send a fork back(ewwww), when I wiped your parents and granparents asses for 4.25 an hour they never felt awkward or ashamed cuz I made sure they understood I was just a walking extra pair of hands and when they were lonely I talked to them and when they needed me I was there when their children werent.When I helped put your roof on I made sure to the best of my abiltiy it would not leak. When I watched your children they were fed, and clean, and played with and loved. So I figure even looking at the bottom line they will have yaya trying her best to help them learn english, to improve their life, to be able to talk to their children's teachers, to become citizens instead of marginalized criminals. I guess maybe it will be a win/win.

Ok, venting done I guess. Flay me flay me flay me.

EDIT: One more thing I forgot to say. I believe that there is a housingbubble. When that pops (it has already started)it will take down large parts of the economy with it. I see a recession/depression heading our way within the next 2 t 3 years. If I am right and that happens the levels of fear and bigotry and violence are gong to escalate at this end of the job ladder. Job went overseas? Cant do anything to a chinese laborere making less than one dollar an hour but I bet they start taking it out on recent immigrants that they will be competing for jobs.

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted June 01, 2006 08:04      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by drunkennewfiemidget:
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
I apologise to the GC community for breaking my "Ignore the trolling fsckwit" rule, thus giving Woofy the Wonder-troll an excuse to have another rant, I was tired and grumpy from a headache, it won't happen again.

It's alright, TFD, we actually like you. [Wink]

The troll, however, you'd think would get a clue and leave already.

I just stopped reading his posts entirely.

I long for a public ignore user script.

If I had time, I'd write a greasemonkey script to specifically ignore that idiot, and release it here. Then he could talk at himself all he liked. Unfortunately, I don't.

Does anyone else have the time? I'd be eternally grateful.

Hey newf: You're a Superfan - check the archives...there's something you might like, though it's rough around the edges. I'd really love a hand...though I am feeling a bit more motivated of late, I just haven't found the time.

--------------------
There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted June 01, 2006 10:26      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by YaYawoman:
Hi everyone. Well I apologize in advance for this post. It will ramble on a bit and I am also feeling a bit rancid this morning. I am going to vent just a tiny bit. Feel free to flay me in response. It will probably make me feel better.(is there such a thing as a reverse-troll? [Wink] )

Hey, YaYa, why don't you emigrate up north, too? [Wink] Selling your property before the bubble blows, taking into account the difference of property price, and you'll have the money to pay for Canadian less-costly, same quality, higher-education right away. [Big Grin]

But seriously, your post shows that you are smart. In such times of incertitude, it is normal to feel scared. But that you use it as an opportunity to improve your life proves that you will end up fine. So hang in there, and we'll be here to listen whenever you feel like whinig/venting. Best of luck to you!

As for the subject at hand, I feel ambivalent about it. It sure feels weird when people from all around the world comes here "in hope for a better life" but still expect to keep the one they had before. But we are a free country, and we can't force them to change. There are things we don't accept, and we makes law about them, so immigrants don't have much choice: comply, or pay the price (or get out). As for the things that aren't made into law, it's up to me to show that "my way" is better than theirs (the immigrant's) by showing example. If indeed my way is better, they will want to change. If they don't change, it means my way may not be better after all. So it's really an exercice of patience and open mindedness. (In exchange, I get sushis, pareos, mangas, tacos, latin music and many other things I enjoy!)

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Eppur, si muove!

Galileo Galilei

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted June 01, 2006 10:26      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
quote:
Originally posted by drunkennewfiemidget:
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
I apologise to the GC community for breaking my "Ignore the trolling fsckwit" rule, thus giving Woofy the Wonder-troll an excuse to have another rant, I was tired and grumpy from a headache, it won't happen again.

It's alright, TFD, we actually like you. [Wink]

The troll, however, you'd think would get a clue and leave already.

I just stopped reading his posts entirely.

I long for a public ignore user script.

If I had time, I'd write a greasemonkey script to specifically ignore that idiot, and release it here. Then he could talk at himself all he liked. Unfortunately, I don't.

Does anyone else have the time? I'd be eternally grateful.

Hey newf: You're a Superfan - check the archives...there's something you might like, though it's rough around the edges. I'd really love a hand...though I am feeling a bit more motivated of late, I just haven't found the time.
I have. [Big Grin] Check the thread.
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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted June 02, 2006 02:34      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
IT WORKS ! [Applause] [Applause] [Applause] [Applause] [Applause]

/me does the happy-dance !

Thanks Dragonman and DNM !

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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ooby
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Icon 1 posted June 02, 2006 05:36      Profile for ooby     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Actually YaYa,

Statistically speaking, the ony people whose jobs are threatend by illegal workers are those who do not have a high school diploma, since the majority of illegal workers are unskilled laborers. Everyone else benefits by about 1%, economically speaking. That number doesn't give much sway to either argument, but it at least prevents people from claiming it as an important factor to consider.

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"haven't you ever wondered if there's more to life than being really, really, rediculously good looking?"

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Alan!
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Icon 1 posted June 02, 2006 06:33      Profile for Alan!     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:
...It sure feels weird when people from all around the world comes here "in hope for a better life" but still expect to keep the one they had before....

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E ora io sono solo un' estranea senza patria.

Ferra¨/Brightman

How poignantly relevant; and I know that this is a default sig, not one chosen especially for this thread. English:

"
I do not know it anymore
And I'm just a stranger without native land
"
-- Adagio (funeral march) ;-)

There's a good 3 levels in there; much too deep. Time for bed.

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Alan!

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ASM65816
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Icon 4 posted June 02, 2006 10:34      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
June 01, 2006 10:26
As for the things that aren't made into law, it's up to me to show that "my way" is better than theirs (the immigrant's) by showing example. If indeed my way is better, they will want to change. If they don't change, it means my way may not be better after all.

People frequently refuse to change when their way is not better.

Century old feuds (or conflicts) are great examples, and the result is typically "ethnic cleansing." It's going on all over the world, and people don't show much signs of changing, in spite of the existence of "a better way." (Of course, some might believe civil war actually is a better way.)

EDIT: A nonviolent example of refusal to follow a better way:
quote:
May 31, 2006, 07:11
(edited) Americans are more likely to have diabetes, high blood pressure....

Nearly every health official recommends exercise and good diet, but large numbers of people don't exercise and eat excessive amounts of "junk food."

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted June 02, 2006 11:37      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Amusing, loosely relevant link:
http://www.gapingvoid.com/Moveable_Type/archives/002905.html

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted June 04, 2006 15:05      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ashitaka:

{/QBI agree with many things you say but that last thing I have to comment on. If the supply of illegals dried up, yes, supply and demand would kick in and decent wages would be paid out in these meat packing plants. But then the prices for the meat in america would skyrocket. I don';t think american realize how inexpensive beef is in the Us compared with other countries. I would have to pay over 100 USD for a t-bone steak. In america the same steak in probably less than 30 USD. How much are you willing to pay for beef? [/QB]

In Iowa I paid areound $5 US for a good pound of rib-eye steak, Choice grade. Here in Michigan it is about double, and not as good.

Prime-grade rib could go as low as $7 US if I bought more than 10-pounds.

When I moved to Iowa, I was warned that the good beef was never allowed out of the state. I didn't know what good beef was until I moved out, now I miss it.

How much am I willing to pay? I don't really know. Frequency of consumption went up for good beef when I lived in Iowa, but beef is not that good for me, is it?

If I ate more vegetarian, then the money saved would mean I would be more willing to pay more when I ate it.

So beef prices going up might be a good thing.

CP

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Free! Free at last!

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