homeGeek CultureWebstoreeCards!Forums!Joy of Tech!AY2K!webcam

The Geek Culture Forums


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Geek Culture Forums   » News, Reviews, Views!   » Rants, Raves, Rumors!   » Wondering how other GC'ers feel about this (Page 2)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!  
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Author Topic: Wondering how other GC'ers feel about this
GameMaster
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 1173

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted May 30, 2006 00:41      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Alright, I posted earlier to the thread, ignoring the troll. But now I feel the need to answer the Troll (which seems unfair, because the troll won't have anyway of answering the post... at least not without going through Lord Snagster).

Do it with the Muslims (Burn them all!!!) in Europe.
Aside from enviromentalist concerns, moral objections to killing and such blantant ignorance.... Sure, why not. Then how about the awful Christians, then those people who dare to be born with blue eyes, followed by anyone over 40 for being "uncool", not to forget anyone Is a 13 year old girl in Germany...

As idotic as your idea is, and as much as I disagree with the opinions you suggest... I do not like the fact that you're being censored. I always thought that it was for the good of the boards that Snaggy didn't use heavy-handed moderation.

I dislike -- nay hate (and I try to use the words "hate" and "love" very sparingly -- but I really do mean hate here) -- racism, intolerence and the small-mindedness that surounds it. But what I hate even more is that it has become a thought crime. There shouldn't be hate crimes, what matters is the act and the intentions behind the act, not the motivation. If someone kills someone to gain the insurance or if someone kills because of race or religon, as long as the intent was to kill it's the same damn crime... Socitey has put this stigma on racisim (and I'm all for stigmas, shaming and shunning), and it should have; but to make policies that go about placing limits on the expression of any opinion (barring no other law or policy being broken) no matter how unpopular isn't in the spirit of free societies. In that regard, unless the troll starts flooding and costing bandwidth, I would hope that Snaggy reconsider his moderation of the troll.

I would also point out that this board has/had members in good standing who made off color jokes about sex with dead farm animals on a regular basis. (By the way, I miss the Spung where has he been?)

Why can't we transfer them back to THEIR countries?!
Yes, let's send all people with different desent back to their country... That means America will have a human population of 0. Native Americans immigrated across the land bridge during the ice age, after all. I'd have to be chopped into quite a number of peices being a "mutt" and portions of me sent to all different parts of the world. What countries should be sending you to?

1-way-ticket for each one is all what we need!
Except, the pilots couldn't take the planes back, either.

--------------------
My Site

Posts: 3038 | From: State of insanity | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
drunkennewfiemidget
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 2814

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted May 30, 2006 04:13      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
In that regard, unless the troll starts flooding and costing bandwidth, I would hope that Snaggy reconsider his moderation of the troll.

Sorry GM, I think you may be alone in that one.
Posts: 4897 | From: Cambridge, ON, Canada | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Zwilnik

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
Member # 615

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted May 30, 2006 04:46      Profile for Zwilnik   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Another indicator of how important the 'illegal' immigrants from Mexico are to American culture is the American language (please, take a bit of pride in the one bit of your culture that's actually evolved and start calling it American so we can have English back!).

While many flame wars have been fought over "what's wrong with American English", in reality it's just a normal localised evolution of the language that's picked up influences from population mixing and conquered lands (i.e. California, New Mexico) and grown up to be its own 'proper' language.

A lot of the differences in American from English stem from the Latino input, such as using Z instead of S. This is a pretty big indicator of how much a part of the big American culture thing that the Mexican immigrants (and those that suddenly became American after borders got adjusted) are.

--------------------
The Universe is entirely made up of elements.
The most important of which is the element of surprise.

Posts: 1040 | From: West Sussex, UK | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged
Doco

SuperFan!
Member # 371

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted May 30, 2006 07:54      Profile for Doco   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I am in the same boat as YaYa - torn between multiple feelings on this issue.

Many of great-grandparents didn't speak English and some of them were second-generation Americans. My dad can understand plaut-dietsch because he was the oldest and his siblings expected him to deciper the "secret" language that his parents and grand-parents used to talk when the kids weren't supposed to hear. The schools for the most part taught in English, but many other community things (church services, etc) were done in german because that served the people in the area at the time. So - I can see where having other languages than English is necessary. However, I also don't see that government functions (including our public schools) should be spending a lot of extra money to provide services in languages other than English. I believe in the idea that if you came here you need to adapt to the new land, language, and customs.

As for guest workers, etc - we have such a bizarre setup right now. Where I used to live in Tx there was a fenced area with bleachers set up by the city for day laborers to gather and be picked up by the various construction and landscaping contractors. "Day laborers" was really a euphanism for illegal immigrant. On the other hand the cube next to me is now empty because an excellent engineer left after getting jerked around repeatedly by our immigration officials. He finally gave up fighting the system and paying lawyers and moved to Canada. We allow (almost encourage) low-wage people in droves but drive away the people that contribute a lot more to our GDP (and those are even the ones that are trying to follow the "rules")

We can't just kick out millions of people - that would be imposible from just a logistics point of view. Those millions also do contribute to our economy and government tax revenue in the tune of billions so you don't want to have a drastic change there.

It is interesting that most of the politicians and people you see on TV seem to want one extreme or the other. The truth is that there isn't any one good answer to the mess we are in now.

I think that enforcing some of the current laws on employers would help a lot. If you reduce the number of jobs that illegals can get then news of not being able to get a job will travel back home and the inflow will slow.

Posts: 419 | From: Minneapolis, MN | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
garlicguy

Member # 3166

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted May 30, 2006 08:12      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I just received the following (forwarded email) and thought it might be fun to add to the mix:

-----------------------------------------

The following has been attributed to State Representative Mitchell Aye
from GA. This guy should run for President one day...


NEW PREAMBLE TO THE CONSTITUTION

"We the sensible people of the United States, in an attempt to help
everyone get along, restore some semblance of justice, avoid more
riots,
keep our nation safe, promote positive behavior, and secure the
blessings of debt-free liberty to ourselves and our
great-great-great-grandchildren, hereby try one more time to ordain and
establish some common sense guidelines for the terminally whiny, guilt
ridden, delusional, and other Liberal bed-wetters.

We hold these truths to be self evident: that a whole lot of people are
confused by the Bill of Rights and are so dim they require a Bill of
NON-Rights."

ARTICLE I:
You do not have the right to a new car, big screen TV, or any other
form
of wealth. More power to you if you can legally acquire them, but No
one
is guaranteeing anything.

ARTICLE II:
You do not have the right to never be offended. This country is Based
on
freedom, and that means freedom for everyone -- not just you! You may
leave the room, turn the channel, express a different opinion, etc.;
But
the world is full of idiots, and probably always will be.

ARTICLE III:
You do not have the right to be free from harm. If you stick a
screwdriver in your eye, learn to be more careful, do not expect the
tool Manufacturer to make you and all your relatives independently
wealthy.

ARTICLE IV:
You do not have the right to free food and housing. Americans are the
most charitable people to be found, and will gladly help anyone in
need,
but we are quickly growing weary of subsidizing generation after
generation of professional couch potatoes who achieve nothing more than
the Creation of another generation of professional couch potatoes.
(This
one is my pet peeve...get an education and go to work .. don't expect
everyone else to take care of you!)

ARTICLE V:
You do not have the right to free health care. That would be nice, but
from the looks of public housing, we're just not interested in public
health care.

ARTICLE VI:
You do not have the right to physically harm other people. If you
kidnap, rape, intentionally maim, or kill someone, don't be surprised
if
the rest of us want to see you fry in the electric chair.

ARTICLE VII:
You do not have the right to the possessions of others. If you rob,
cheat, or coerce away the goods or services of other citizens, don't be
surprised if the rest of us get together and lock you away in a place
where you still won't have the right to a big screen color TV or a life
of leisure.

ARTICLE VIII:
You do not have the right to a job. All of us sure want you to have a
job, and will gladly help you along in hard times, but we expect you to
take advantage of the opportunities of education and vocational
training
laid before you to make yourself useful. (AMEN!)

ARTICLE IX:
You do not have the right to happiness. Being an American means that
you
have the right to PURSUE happiness, which by the way, is a lot easier
if
you are unencumbered by an over abundance of idiotic laws created by
those of you who were confused by the Bill of Rights.

ARTICLE X:
This is an English speaking country. We don't care where you are from,
English is our language. Learn it or go back to wherever you came from!
(lastly....)

ARTICLE XI:
You do not have the right to change our country's history or heritage.
This country was founded on the belief in God. And yet, you are given
the freedom to believe in any religion, any faith, or no faith at all;
with no fear of persecution. The phrase IN GOD WE TRUST is part of our
heritage and history, and if you are uncomfortable with it, TOUGH!!!!


If you agree, share this with a friend. No, you don't have to, and
nothing tragic will befall you if you don't. I just think it's about
time common sense is allowed to flourish. Sensible people of the United
States speak out because if you do not, who will?

--------------------------------------

--------------------
I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Posts: 3752 | From: Pluto, no matter what you call it, is still my home. | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
drunkennewfiemidget
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 2814

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted May 30, 2006 08:47      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm not sure those should be attributed to republicans, or liberals. They need not be attributed to anything other than common sense that everyone should follow.

Perhaps my fiscal conservatism is showing, I don't know..

Posts: 4897 | From: Cambridge, ON, Canada | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
ASM65816
SuperBlabberMouth!
Member # 712

Member Rated:
2
Icon 4 posted May 30, 2006 10:21      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Isn't the Mexican government one of the biggest reasons people leave Mexico?

Corruption is pervasive, and almost nothing can be done without some form of bribery.

Since drug traffickers and gangs can bribe Mexican police the most, they receive better protection from the police than anyone else. Having the common citizens pay taxes to support police stations adds insult to injury because they're having to pay people that are protecting the criminals who victimize them.

If the Mexican government took care of the Mexican people, maybe there wouldn't be a problem with illegal immigration to the US.   [ohwell]

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

Posts: 1035 | From: Third rock from sun. | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sxeptomaniac

Member # 3698

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted May 30, 2006 11:02      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
There has always been interesting tension between the "nativist" and pro-immigrant groups in the U.S.

On one hand, immigration is vital to our nation, and the bureaucracy involved does need to be reformed and updated. A guest worker program that leads towards citizenship makes a lot of sense to me. On the other hand, it would be a good idea to have a little more control over our Southern border. The people coming here looking for work don't bother me as much as the smugglers.

--------------------
Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

Posts: 1590 | From: Fresno, CA | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ashitaka

SuperFan!
Member # 4924

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted May 30, 2006 13:00      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by garlicguy:
I just received the following (forwarded email) and thought it might be fun to add to the mix:

-----------------------------------------

The following has been attributed to State Representative Mitchell Aye
from GA. This guy should run for President one day...


NEW PREAMBLE TO THE CONSTITUTION

"We the sensible people of the United States, in an attempt to help
everyone get along, restore some semblance of justice, avoid more
riots,
keep our nation safe, promote positive behavior, and secure the
blessings of debt-free liberty to ourselves and our
great-great-great-grandchildren, hereby try one more time to ordain and
establish some common sense guidelines for the terminally whiny, guilt
ridden, delusional, and other Liberal bed-wetters.

We hold these truths to be self evident: that a whole lot of people are
confused by the Bill of Rights and are so dim they require a Bill of
NON-Rights."

ARTICLE I:
You do not have the right to a new car, big screen TV, or any other
form
of wealth. More power to you if you can legally acquire them, but No
one
is guaranteeing anything.

ARTICLE II:
You do not have the right to never be offended. This country is Based
on
freedom, and that means freedom for everyone -- not just you! You may
leave the room, turn the channel, express a different opinion, etc.;
But
the world is full of idiots, and probably always will be.

ARTICLE III:
You do not have the right to be free from harm. If you stick a
screwdriver in your eye, learn to be more careful, do not expect the
tool Manufacturer to make you and all your relatives independently
wealthy.

ARTICLE IV:
You do not have the right to free food and housing. Americans are the
most charitable people to be found, and will gladly help anyone in
need,
but we are quickly growing weary of subsidizing generation after
generation of professional couch potatoes who achieve nothing more than
the Creation of another generation of professional couch potatoes.
(This
one is my pet peeve...get an education and go to work .. don't expect
everyone else to take care of you!)

ARTICLE V:
You do not have the right to free health care. That would be nice, but
from the looks of public housing, we're just not interested in public
health care.

ARTICLE VI:
You do not have the right to physically harm other people. If you
kidnap, rape, intentionally maim, or kill someone, don't be surprised
if
the rest of us want to see you fry in the electric chair.

ARTICLE VII:
You do not have the right to the possessions of others. If you rob,
cheat, or coerce away the goods or services of other citizens, don't be
surprised if the rest of us get together and lock you away in a place
where you still won't have the right to a big screen color TV or a life
of leisure.

ARTICLE VIII:
You do not have the right to a job. All of us sure want you to have a
job, and will gladly help you along in hard times, but we expect you to
take advantage of the opportunities of education and vocational
training
laid before you to make yourself useful. (AMEN!)

ARTICLE IX:
You do not have the right to happiness. Being an American means that
you
have the right to PURSUE happiness, which by the way, is a lot easier
if
you are unencumbered by an over abundance of idiotic laws created by
those of you who were confused by the Bill of Rights.

ARTICLE X:
This is an English speaking country. We don't care where you are from,
English is our language. Learn it or go back to wherever you came from!
(lastly....)

ARTICLE XI:
You do not have the right to change our country's history or heritage.
This country was founded on the belief in God. And yet, you are given
the freedom to believe in any religion, any faith, or no faith at all;
with no fear of persecution. The phrase IN GOD WE TRUST is part of our
heritage and history, and if you are uncomfortable with it, TOUGH!!!!


If you agree, share this with a friend. No, you don't have to, and
nothing tragic will befall you if you don't. I just think it's about
time common sense is allowed to flourish. Sensible people of the United
States speak out because if you do not, who will?

--------------------------------------

Where to start, where to start. I liked it, though I don't agree with a few points.

quote:
and other Liberal bed-wetters.
I think that the republics are in more need of reading these rules. But thats the thing of politics, The oppositionis always worse than you.


quote:
You do not have the right to free health care. That would be nice, but
from the looks of public housing, we're just not interested in public
health care.

This is the one article I disagree with. Everyone should have basic free health care. I'm not talking about lipo here, justbasic human rights.

quote:
This is an English speaking country. We don't care where you are from,
English is our language. Learn it or go back to wherever you came from!

This is not an english speaking country. We have no national language. We almost made it german but didn't.

quote:
The phrase IN GOD WE TRUST is part of our
heritage and history, and if you are uncomfortable with it, TOUGH!!!!

Our history is not the shiney apple people make it out to be. Slavery and witch buring and only white male suffferage are also part of our history but we have seen past these things and changed.

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

Posts: 3089 | From: Switzerland | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 1769

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted May 30, 2006 14:34      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doco:
However, I also don't see that government functions (including our public schools) should be spending a lot of extra money to provide services in languages other than English. I believe in the idea that if you came here you need to adapt to the new land, language, and customs.

By that logic, places like Los Angeles, Boca Raton, and Las Vegas should be exclusively Spanish speaking, while New Orleans would be French speaking, and you'd need to learn Dutch to buy a bagel in New York.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Grummash

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 4289

Icon 1 posted May 30, 2006 14:46      Profile for Grummash     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
garlicguy:

The "preamble to the constitution" which you posted appeals to me in certain parts. I very much agree with the idea of 'no free ride for spongers' - however, some of it is too harsh for my taste.

I am sure that the common-sense people of the world could thrash out a workable version if they wanted too....

--------------------
...and yet, across the gulf of space, minds immeasurably superior to ours regarded this earth with envious eyes...

Posts: 2335 | From: Lancashire,UK | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
CommanderShroom
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 2097

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted May 30, 2006 15:01      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
By that logic, places like Los Angeles, Boca Raton, and Las Vegas should be exclusively Spanish speaking, while New Orleans would be French speaking, and you'd need to learn Dutch to buy a bagel in New York.

How many languages are used in Aussie schools?

While it is true the U.S. has no defined "official" language. English is the predominant one. And considering the multitude of non-English speaking waves of immigrants the U.S. has had over the years, we would have pockets of every language known to modern man spoken exclusively somewhere.

I do agree with doco on the English language issue. Only because I see it first hand. To not speak English is to purposefully put yourself into second-class society.

And anyway TFD. L.A. would not only speak Spanish. It would speak Spanish, Swahili, Arabic, Hindi, Japanese, Vietnamese, Chinese, Polish, etc. So to have a single language that everyone agrees upon is needed. Especially somewhere as multicultural as the U.S.

And since this issue has been raised, why shouldn't Spanish speaking immigrants not speak English? Is it because they unfortunately not as intelligent as the Hindi speakers? Or the Arabic speakers. They seem to learn the language. How about the Armenians or the Asians. All of them keep their cultures and speak their native tongues along with English. So to cater to a particular group is, IMNSHO, holding that race back. Keeping them in a position that they cannot rise to a higher station in life.

--------------------
Does he know our big secret?
Has one of us confessed?
'Bout the wires circuits and motors
Buried in our chest

Posts: 2465 | From: Utarrrrggggghhh!!!!!!!! | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 1769

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted May 30, 2006 16:21      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CommanderShroom:
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
By that logic, places like Los Angeles, Boca Raton, and Las Vegas should be exclusively Spanish speaking, while New Orleans would be French speaking, and you'd need to learn Dutch to buy a bagel in New York.

...
I do agree with doco on the English language issue. Only because I see it first hand. To not speak English is to purposefully put yourself into second-class society.

And anyway TFD. L.A. would not only speak Spanish. It would speak Spanish, Swahili, Arabic, Hindi, Japanese, Vietnamese, Chinese, Polish, etc. So to have a single language that everyone agrees upon is needed. Especially somewhere as multicultural as the U.S.

I wasn't denying the value of a single common language (although the Swiss and Canadians seem to manage quite well) but simply pointing out the logical flaw in docos statement. Much of the southern and western USA was Spanish speaking before the anglos arrived and took over, so the arguement that people should "adapt to the new land, language, and customs" when they move is actually an argument against the use of English in those places.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
CommanderShroom
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 2097

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted May 30, 2006 16:35      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
...simply pointing out the logical flaw in docos statement. Much of the southern and western USA was Spanish speaking before the anglos arrived and took over, so the arguement that people should "adapt to the new land, language, and customs" when they move is actually an argument against the use of English in those places.

It reminds me of a quote. To the victors go the spoils.

Very good point, and even though I see the logic there, it is also a fact that those areas were also taken over, and in no uncertain terms conquered, by predominantly anglo-saxon groups.

Which is why I do still (mostly) agree with the idea of the 'one language and English is the language' arguement.

--------------------
Does he know our big secret?
Has one of us confessed?
'Bout the wires circuits and motors
Buried in our chest

Posts: 2465 | From: Utarrrrggggghhh!!!!!!!! | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ruhrpottbabe
Mini Geek
Member # 5113

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted May 30, 2006 18:55      Profile for Ruhrpottbabe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
hello everyone, I've been reading this thread with very mixed emotions. as you can imagine it is not easy for a German to get involved in any matters dealing with foreigners, immigration and the like - considering our history and the atrocities committed by a regime that considered anyone an alien who did not have blond hair and blue eyes.
my generation was raised to be liberal, open and tolerant, we were taught to accept other people's origins, cultures and religions. after WW 2 we had to call in a lot of so-called "guest-workers", the first wave was Italians and people from Portugal and Greece - no prob there. they worked, paid their taxes, learnt our language and tried their best to get integrated.
then came the second wave, people from Turkey, mostly from the rural and underdeveloped areas. a lot of them did not mix with the Germans, formed their exclusively Turkish neighbourhoods, refused to learn the language or even tolerate our culture and values. and now the whole thing is blowing up ... there's a big debate going on, suddenly you hear sentences like "if they don't want to be integrated, they have to be sent home". to me that sounds a bit like 1939 again and it really makes me afraid. on the other hand it also scares me to walk through certain parts of our city after dark as it is definitely not safe there for a blond-haired woman.
seems as if the laissez-faire attitude of the past decades didn't work but what are the alternatives?

--------------------
In a world of excess, it's the subtle that stands out.

Posts: 69 | From: Germany | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
ASM65816
SuperBlabberMouth!
Member # 712

Member Rated:
2
Icon 1 posted May 30, 2006 21:06      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
May 30, 2006, 07:54
    I believe in the idea that if you came here you need to adapt to the new land, language, and customs.

Response, May 30, 2006 14:34:
    By that logic, places like Los Angeles, Boca Raton, and Las Vegas should be exclusively Spanish speaking, while New Orleans would be French speaking, and you'd need to learn Dutch to buy a bagel in New York.

That response looks like a deliberate misinterpretation of another GC member's statement.

When the colonies united, it's pretty clear that English became the dominant language of government (and commerce). The Constitution was not translated and rewritten in French for the citizens of New Orleans. The Constitution was not translated and rewritten in Dutch for the citizens of New York. The Constitution wasn't translated and rewritten in Spanish either. In Congress, the representatives of the colonies did not address their colleagues in French, Dutch, or Spanish while translators interpreted to individual members.

The response does not follow logic, because of refusal to acknowledge that the colonies united in terms of government and communication.

quote:

Much of the southern and western USA was Spanish speaking before the anglos arrived and took over, so the arguement that people should "adapt to the new land, language, and customs" when they move is actually an argument against the use of English in those places.

States willingly joined "the Union." Also, settlers in the "Wild West" came from eastern states, so it's certain that they spoke English.

Generally speaking, the organized government of a territory would make known the sentiment of its population in favor of statehood; Congress would then direct that government to organize a constitutional convention to write a state constitution. Upon acceptance of that Constitution, Congress would then admit that territory as a state.

Note: California was created out of unorganized territory.

quote:
May 30, 2006 16:35
It reminds me of a quote. To the victors go the spoils.

The colonies united, and territories joined. German speakers were not "defeated" and forced to fight the British, French speakers were not "defeated" and forced to fight the British, and Spanish speakers were not "defeated" and forced to fight the British. See "willingly joined" above.
[shake head]

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

Posts: 1035 | From: Third rock from sun. | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 1769

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted May 30, 2006 21:28      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The sky is green !
The sky is green !

quote:
Originally posted by the thinking impaired troll
States willingly joined "the Union." Also, settlers in the "Wild West" came from eastern states, so it's certain that they spoke English...


... Note: California was created out of unorganized territory.

ASM, you are so full of sh1t it's amazing you can operate a keyboard.

A brief quote from Wikipedia
quote:
Spain colonized the territory during the late 1700s before it became part of Mexico after the Mexican War of Independence (1810-21). During the outset of the Mexican-American War (1846-1848)... ...the state was captured by the U.S. Army and Navy
Now please fsck-off back to whatever rock you crawled out from under and leave us alone, no-one wants you here.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Colonel Panic
BlabberMouth, the Next Generation
Member # 1200

Icon 1 posted May 30, 2006 21:47      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
YaYa, I read that this is a subject that does not follow traditional political lines. So it makes for more intersting discussion.

Having lived in Iowa for a while, I had the opportunity to observe how Illegal immigration affected the hospitality industry, and in a more major area, the meat packing industry. Iowa processes more meat than any other state, and it does it cheaply with illegal labor.

Some of the plants will hire illegals knowingly, then wait until the day before payday to "cooperate" with the government, thus avoiding paying any wages!

A Latin co-worker told me of stories in the latino community of hotels and meat packing plants requesting Social Security numbers over and over, until one "worked."

I worked with a legislative committee to propose that companies that are caught hiring illegal workers, be required to compensate any legal worker who applied for a job but was turned down because the company chose to hire illegals.
The payment would be equal to the wages the worker would have made had that worker been hired instead of the illegal.

To me, these businesses who hire illegals are criminals, too. And if the wages they pay are going to Mexico, then those businesses are contributing to the siphonig of wealth out of the community.

I've also read of the horror stories of boxcars of dead, bloated, cooked bodies of illegal immigrants found rotting in the Iowa sun. The people engaging in this trafficking should be punished dearly.

I have also heard the argument, that these are jobs that American workers look down at because the wages are too low. To me supply and demand should work here. If businesses were cut off from the supply of cheap, illegal labor, then wages would rise to levels Americans found acceptable.

CP

--------------------
Free! Free at last!

Posts: 1809 | From: Glacier Melt, USA | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Xanthine

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
Member # 736

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted May 30, 2006 22:04      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CommanderShroom:

While it is true the U.S. has no defined "official" language. English is the predominant one. And considering the multitude of non-English speaking waves of immigrants the U.S. has had over the years, we would have pockets of every language known to modern man spoken exclusively somewhere.

Actually, in this country, for any given language there's bound to be someone who speaks it in addition to English. And we've got the native languages as well.

The US COnstitution was written in English because the original 13 staes were all former British colonies. Over time, we bought, annexed, conquered, etc. other territories that had belonged to other nations, such as Mexico and France. English never went down in the books as the official language - in fact, the US is one of very few countries that has neither and official language nor an official religion. However, by default, English is the national language and to function outside your neighborhood you need to know it.

That said, learning a foreign language, especially if you're an adult, is hard for most people (some people soak up languages like a sponge), and the challenge increases the more divergent the languages are. Try it. You will see what I mean. For some people, it's even impossible, even if it's a relatively easy transition, such as Spanish to English. Furthermore, there are other things in the way of learning a language. If there's lots of people around who speak your native tongue you don't get much chance to practice. If you're shy, you won't be able to practice because you'll be afraid to open your mouth. If you don't have the money, you can't take classes or by books. And so on. Perhaps it's time to put our money where our mouths are when it comes to learning English.

--------------------
And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

Posts: 7670 | From: the lab | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
magefile
Highlie
Member # 2918

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted May 30, 2006 22:24      Profile for magefile     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Willingly joined" is a bit of a misleading statement. The issue was voted on, yeah, but turnout among eligible voters used to be even lower than it is now. And "eligible voters" meant white men, usually educated and wealthy - no women and no racial minorities (Native American, Mexican, black). So ... "willingly joined", for certain values of "willingly".
Posts: 743 | From: Massachusetts | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ashitaka

SuperFan!
Member # 4924

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted May 31, 2006 01:06      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Colonel Panic:
this trafficking should be punished dearly.

I have also heard the argument, that these are jobs that American workers look down at because the wages are too low. To me supply and demand should work here. If businesses were cut off from the supply of cheap, illegal labor, then wages would rise to levels Americans found acceptable.

CP

I agree with many things you say but that last thing I have to comment on. If the supply of illegals dried up, yes, supply and demand would kick in and decent wages would be paid out in these meat packing plants. But then the prices for the meat in america would skyrocket. I don';t think american realize how inexpensive beef is in the Us compared with other countries. I would have to pay over 100 USD for a t-bone steak. In america the same steak in probably less than 30 USD. How much are you willing to pay for beef?

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

Posts: 3089 | From: Switzerland | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 1769

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted May 31, 2006 01:37      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ashitaka:
I agree with many things you say but that last thing I have to comment on. If the supply of illegals dried up, yes, supply and demand would kick in and decent wages would be paid out in these meat packing plants. But then the prices for the meat in america would skyrocket. I don';t think american realize how inexpensive beef is in the Us compared with other countries. I would have to pay over 100 USD for a t-bone steak. In america the same steak in probably less than 30 USD. How much are you willing to pay for beef?

Disagree.

The price of meat in Europe has little to do with labour costs, and much to do with the European agricultural policies which artificially inflate prices.

Here in oz, I can buy a kilo of t-bone for around $A 10, that's less that $US 8, or less than 6 Euros. That's meat processed by legal (and unionised) aussie workers at substantially above the minimum wage (and our minimum wage is higher than the US)

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Geordie

Member # 996

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted May 31, 2006 06:39      Profile for Geordie     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by Ashitaka:
I agree with many things you say but that last thing I have to comment on. If the supply of illegals dried up, yes, supply and demand would kick in and decent wages would be paid out in these meat packing plants. But then the prices for the meat in america would skyrocket. I don';t think american realize how inexpensive beef is in the Us compared with other countries. I would have to pay over 100 USD for a t-bone steak. In america the same steak in probably less than 30 USD. How much are you willing to pay for beef?

Disagree.

The price of meat in Europe has little to do with labour costs, and much to do with the European agricultural policies which artificially inflate prices.

Here in oz, I can buy a kilo of t-bone for around $A 10, that's less that $US 8, or less than 6 Euros. That's meat processed by legal (and unionised) aussie workers at substantially above the minimum wage (and our minimum wage is higher than the US)

Indeed. A 1,000 pound steer ends up being about 400 pounds of saleable meat. Assuming you can only get 50 x 1 pound steaks out of that and spread the $70 cost per steak over just those 50 pounds, it means the total price difference is $3500. I find it difficult to believe that it takes more than 10 person hours to cut up a steer meaning that the labor cost would have to be $350 an hour. Clearly it is something else that affects those prices (probably something much further up the distribution chain).

--------------------
Geordie

Posts: 322 | From: Fairfax Station, VA, USA | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 1769

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted May 31, 2006 07:11      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by garlicguy:
ARTICLE V:
You do not have the right to free health care. That would be nice, but
from the looks of public housing, we're just not interested in public
health care.

You americans are a bunch of sickos !
quote:
From TFA
Americans are 42 percent more likely than Canadians to have diabetes, 32 percent more likely to have high blood pressure, and 12 percent more likely to have arthritis, Harvard Medical School researchers found....

...Canada's national health insurance program is at least part of the reason for the differences found in the study, Woolhandler said. Universal coverage makes it easier for more Canadians to get disease-preventing health services....

...Insured Americans and Canadians had about the same rates of disease. It was the uninsured Americans who made the overall U.S. figures worse

/me is a big fan of the aussie public health care system (with all its faults)

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
ASM65816
SuperBlabberMouth!
Member # 712

Member Rated:
2
Icon 2 posted May 31, 2006 09:37      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
May 30, 2006 14:34, he says:
    By that logic, places like Los Angeles, Boca Raton, and Las Vegas should be exclusively Spanish speaking,

May 30, 2006, 21:28, then to support his view:
    Spain colonized the territory during the late 1700s before it became part of Mexico after the Mexican War of Independence (1810-21). During the outset of the Mexican-American War (1846-1848)... ...the state was captured by the U.S. Army and Navy

This is a great example of Hypocrisy. His view:

Good: Spanish becomes the dominant language because of colonization.
Bad: English becomes the dominant language because of an influx of settlers.

#include sarcasm.h
[shake head]   Gee, I wonder if he'll say "an influx of settlers" isn't the same as "colonization."

I guess the other possibility is that he believes: "Nothing should change as a result of war." In that case he's pathetically delusional, because war has always changed things, and it's been changing things for thousands upon thousands of years. (Why do Mexicans speak Spanish?)

If he was really against the change of language, he should insist that the nation of Spain return to South America and restore their multiple tribal languages because "it's the right thing to do."

Part II: By His "Logic" (... should be exclusively Spanish speaking...)

Apparently, government and its services should be in the language of the largest population segment.

Therefore, in a city where the most people speak French, city laws and services should be in French. If the city is in a territory where the most people speak German, laws and services of the territory should be in German. If the territory is in a nation where the most people speak English, federal laws and services should be in English.

So by his "logic," having French laws, German laws, and English laws governing one place would be "the right thing to do." (Note: I did say he was deliberately misinterpreting someone when he said this.)

Back to Immigration
quote:
May 31, 2006, 01:06
If the supply of illegals dried up.....

May 30, 2006, 21:47
I've also read of the horror stories of boxcars of dead, bloated, cooked bodies of illegal immigrants found....

Why is it that the very significant risk of death in a boxcar (or desert, etc.) does not stop the supply of illegals? (To put it another way: Is Mexico that bad?)

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

Posts: 1035 | From: Third rock from sun. | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged


All times are Eastern Time
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | Geek Culture Home Page

2015 Geek Culture

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.4.0



homeGeek CultureWebstoreeCards!Forums!Joy of Tech!AY2K!webcam