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Author Topic: Wondering how other GC'ers feel about this
YaYawoman

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Icon 1 posted May 27, 2006 23:15      Profile for YaYawoman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I saw this article on the immigration bill in the Washington Post today.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/27/AR2006052700802.html

I was just wondering how others on here feel about this topic.

I personally feel the flow of illegal immigrants should be stopped as best as possible. I realize there really is no way to totally seal our borders however I also feel that is no excuse not to at least attempt to try to get a grip on this problem.

Once the influx is as limited as possible then start debating and deciding:Amnesty?

Before anyone gets all wired I will explain how i feel a tad bit more.

I am kinda schizophrenic when it comes to politics. Some things I am very liberal, others very conservative.

Part of me feels that if someone wants to work and earn money so desperately they break laws and walk thousands of miles, hey have at it. Good luck and a great big golf clap.

On the other hand.....

Illegal means illegal. I cannot but feel horrible at the thought that those around the world who want to become citizens and do so legally wait and wait and jump through hoop after hoop while those born across a porous border walk right on in.

Anyways like i said up above I am feeling a bit nosy.

Thanks and have a great day.

EDIT: Reading further along was this article with a different take on the subject. Again being the political schizoid that I am found myself nodding sometimes and frowning at others. Oh, yah, I read that book, the Nine Nations of North America when it first came out. Very very interesting. The text is available on-line if you google the author, Joel Garreau. Sorry for the digression. Here is the link to the other article.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/26/AR2006052601613.html

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted May 28, 2006 05:23      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Interesting - I must say that I side with the second article far more than the first. From a very practical point of view, we are _FSCKED_ if we make illegal immigrants actually illegal, and kick them out. Presently, they are a vital segment of our economy, both as a work force, and as part of the consumer base. I'm not saying it's right, but this is just the way it is. The funny bit is, many Americans complain about being unemployed, but at the same time refuse to do jobs that the illegals are doing - washing dishes, cleaning buildings, mowing lawns, being day laborers in construction. This is 'undesirable' work, but for people who are trying to earn an 'honest' living, it's just what they do. At the moment, if you were to kick every illegal immigrant out, large bits of the service economy would suffer greatly -- and many Americans would continue to remain unemployed. (The funny thing is that working for a highway department cleanup crew [and I'm largely talking about brush, not greatly unpleasant things] can earn a person greater wages than many entry level office jobs.)

I recognize your argument that it is unfair to legal immigrants...but it is also quite a bit unfair that the immigration process is seriously messed up, and people who have worked hard to become citizens sit for years now, waiting for security clearance, and for their final interview. Becoming a legal immigrant takes far too much time and money for someone who's just looking for a better opportunity -- and let's not forget that is why many people came to America in the first place, and that this is largely the foundation of 'the American work ethic.'

I think there has to be a real balance between criminalizing illegal immigrants, and granting full amnesty. I do agree with the idea of a 'guest worker' program, as it's currently quite vital to keep the people who are here, and not deport the lot of them. At the same time, people really do need proper paperwork, and a means to perhaps get fast-tracked into becoming legal citizens...or maybe some kind of middle-ground status (i.e. something like the Green Card, but more readily available).

This whole situation is really representative of the rest of the problems facing the world and it's economy, as people are coming to the States to do hard work, and sending that money back home to family to support them. In an ideal world, their own country and its economy could support them well, but it isn't -- this makes the point presented by the second article quite interesting...the idea of an American Mexico. After all, Mexico is sometimes called the '51st state' -- when that title isn't given a tad more rightfully (and just as unofficially) to Puerto Rico. The way things are going with immigration and the job market, you kind of wonder if it wouldn't be a bad idea for the two countries to partner up somehow...without us fully supporting them, of course (but we're doing it rather unofficially now, by sending illegals' paychecks back across the border...and by building American cars down south). I mean, if you were to form such a merger, large groups of 'guest workers' might enjoy a much more legal status, and maybe factories might actually exist somewhere on the continent, rather than in China.

I don't know - there are very big issues here, and I'm no political scientist - just a rather caffeinated geek typing aloud while being distracted by a cat in his lap. I reckon that my post actually comes across as a bit right wing, but while I don't agree with my country's politician's takes on many matters (such as that little piece of desert called Iraq), I do believe in my country and what it's supposed to stand for. Kicking people out because of paper and process does not fit in with the ideals of The American Dream. Doing so both goes against the history of the immigrants who made this country what it is today, and is also just a revisiting of the bigotry shown to many groups of people who tried to come here for a new start years ago (read: Italians, Irish, Chinese, et. al).

/me gets off his soap box...

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CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted May 28, 2006 07:20      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It is a very interesting dillema. Illegal immigrants come to the country and work cheaply. Sometimes far below our lowest wages. And drive down wages for the regular and natural citizens.

I won't say that they are working jobs that nobody wants. But closer to the truth is that they are working jobs for wages that nobody wants. I grew up in tobacco country. And during harvest it was quite lucrative. Of course the new legal issues surrounding tobacco have cut production. But also, the wages for the harvest have not climbed in 20 years. As more migrant workers come to these states, they keep the wages down and the people that used to be out there cutting and stripping tobacco cannot work for those prices. But as I was told by my own father when he quit doing the yearly harvest. "They don't have to care about how much the pay is. They don't have to live here." That is the real issue. Is many of the illegal immigrants come to the States, work the season sending money home to their families. And when the season is over, go home using the money they have earned to live through the winter months.

I get to see illegal immigration on a daily basis. Neighbors move in all the time and you can see friends coming on a regular basis with the Front. B.C. plates on their cars. They work jobs under the table to send it to their families. Depriving a citizen of work at a fair wage. How can we compete with a person willing to work for 2 dollars less than minimum wage? And unless we work like they work, live like they live, there is no way a person can survive on those wages either.

But then again. Those are my neighbors, friends of my sons. Years after that point, many of them do move over and become legal citizens. And they climb up the ladder, work hard and try to give their children the opportunities to live an American dream.

Yes we had immigrant waves. But in those times it was to the tune of hundreds of thousands, not to the tune of tens of millions. It is a drain to our system. Medical coverage that many can get for their children. ESL classes to accomodate the non-english speakers. These things take away from us and ours. Our own government unwittingly, and sometimes fully knowing, are sending millions to Mexico also.

I am the son of a Korean immigrant and an American. So I have heard the allure of the US from someone that longed to be here. I don't blame them for it. I do blame ourselves for some of it though. And I wholeheartedly blame the Latin America governments for it. Their chaos is why many are here. And I am tired of hearing Vincente Fox talking about how terrible we are for wanting to kick the immigrants out, while his own police and military forces have shoot to kill orders if they see immigrants from Honduras or Panama, etc. Shoot to kill and we are the monsters?!

I don't believe in a fast track. I do believe that we should make it more difficult to let illegal immigrants work in the US. And make it more difficult for companies to move their factories outside of our borders. The laws are still good that are already on the books. No, I don't want that guy down the way turned into a felon for wanting what we all want. But I don't want an all access pass handed out to him (or her) either. My mother worked at it for nearly a decade to become a citizen. Why should anyone else get better treatment than her? Because she was Korean and not Mexican? She was married to an American GI and they still made her jump through hoops.

What I do believe is that we should fine the companies for hiring illegal imigrants. Large fines, to the extent that it will make anyone think twice about hiring someone without papers. And I also believe that tarrifs should come into effect over goods and services that are outside of our borders. Let them boycott us. So what. The US has traditionally had the means to be fully self supporting. What happened? We wanted it cheap too.

Now I am fine with a guest worker program. One that has papered immigrants and migrants here. One that allows us to tax their wages. One that levels the playing field.

It will never stop illegal immigrants, but it will slow things down to a manageable level.

--------------------
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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted May 28, 2006 09:47      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm in favor of a guest worker program for reasons stated by the two gentlemen ahead of me.

There're many lovely ironies in our current immigration situation. One of the first things Bush did when he came to office was greatly reduce the number of H1-B visas (these last three years and are for skilled workers) available to protect American jobs. At the same time, it became easy and chep to start out-sourcing. So now the hjob that would have been down by an Indian on a H1-B is now being done for less by an Indian in India. And, contrary to popular myth, a worker on a H1-B IS NOT paid less than an American. A worker on a H1-B is paid, by law, at the going market rate. It's a huge hassle to bring an employee in on a H1-B. Companies were doing it because they couldn't find Americans qualified for the jobs (this board is enriched with geeks, but time was there were more tech jobs than there were people trained to fill them).

A further irony is we have a mechanism sorta in place already. There's the H2-B, which is good for a set number of months and is for seasonal, unskilled labor. My bf has a friend who basically lives off of H2-B visas. Seriously. He'll come over here and nwork long hours at some shitty job for anywhere from 3 to 8 months, save his money, and then go back to Serbia and fool around until he needs to come back to the US and work again. Apparently he can make more money this way than he can as an engineer in Serbia (which is what he got his degree in, BTW). Thing is, there aren't enough H2-Bs to go around either. Maybe they just need to raise the quota?

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- The Decemberists

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted May 28, 2006 11:05      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Let's start with a bit of background before I say the really offensive thing that I want to say...

The apartment building I live in has six apartments. Of those, two are inhabited by US citizens and the other four are, I'm fairly certain, illegal immigrants from Mexico who stay a few months, then leave and the next family moves in.

The previous place I lived had no illegal immigrants and was all white rednecks.

In the nine or so years that I've lived among the illegal immigrants, there has been exactly one crime. Someone stole a bicycle a few years back.

In the previous place I lived, over the course of a couple years, there were dozens of visits by police to investigate vandalism, break ins, domestic violence and one guy wigged out on drugs firing a handgun randomly at car windows in the parking lot.

Now for what I really want to say

I vote we kick the more worthless members of our society right the hell out and give their citizenship to the illegal immigrants who come here, work hard and behave like human beings. Get rid of the worthless fscktards who sell their food stamps for 40% cash which is then spent on alcohol and drugs and keep people who will be productive members of society and the problem is solved overnight.

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Plcaga
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Icon 1 posted May 28, 2006 12:54      Profile for Plcaga   Author's Homepage         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:

I vote we kick the more worthless members of our society right the hell out and give their citizenship to the illegal immigrants who come here, work hard and behave like human beings. Get rid of the worthless fscktards who sell their food stamps for 40% cash which is then spent on alcohol and drugs and keep people who will be productive members of society and the problem is solved overnight.

Do it with the Muslims (Burn them all!!! [devil wand] [devil wand] ) in Europe.
[Edit] - Why can't we transfer them back to THEIR countries?! [devil wand] 1-way-ticket for each one is all what we need! Come on, what will Ahmedinjad do to US (2 meanings [Razz] )?
Help the world to get rid of the cads!

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted May 28, 2006 13:02      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:

I vote we kick the more worthless members of our society right the hell out and give their citizenship to the illegal immigrants who come here, work hard and behave like human beings. Get rid of the worthless fscktards who sell their food stamps for 40% cash which is then spent on alcohol and drugs and keep people who will be productive members of society and the problem is solved overnight.

Same thing here. I agree wholeheartedly. Take the fuckers we have in our countries who, regardless of status or creed or colour or country of origin or anything, and deport the ones who sell their food stamps for money, and have many illegitimate children who should be taken away from them, and deport them somewhere like the middle of the atlantic ocean.

People here are bitching and complaining about illegal immigrants from all over the world (there was a small rally here in Toronto yesterday, even), and what angers me the most about all of this is that the day of the month that the liquor and beer stores stock up on beer and have the largest sales is the day welfare cheques are deposited into accounts!

Most of the people I know on welfare that are abusing it were born and raised here.

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YaYawoman

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Icon 1 posted May 28, 2006 17:27      Profile for YaYawoman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi. Thanks everyone who answered. Most of the replies were thoughtful and raised very good points. Sigh. Such a complicated topic. At least here we have (ahem, mostly) managed to avoid inflammatory rhetoric and talked about a multi-faceted topic.Good job ignoring the trollish.

I do have one question for DNM though. Not trying to pick but when you were talking about illegitmate children, is it the illegitimate itself that irks you? Or is it someone having children they cant take care of? Gotta go for full disclosure here [Wink] my son is illegitimate but very well cared for and loved. (insert best new mommy cooing voice)"Mommy's little bastard, yeah" heehee sorry couldnt resist.

Anyways I'm pretty sure what you meant but it is written in such a way that I could be wrong.

Thanks again everyone.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted May 28, 2006 18:03      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The really weird thing about all this business about illegal immigrants sucking up welfare money is it isn't happening. Why? Because, in the US, you can't get welfare unless you are a citizen or green card holder.

I'm also wondering what the rest of the industrial world does with its illegal immigrant problems. I know the US is not the only place people are trying and dying to get into (my bf's first choice was Canada, but the oppurtunity never arose, so he ended up in the US instead). How are they handling it?

BTW, as an aside, I've read that compared to many other developed countrie the US is actually easy to legally immigrate too. Considering how messy our immigration bureaucracy is, I find that a bit scary.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 28, 2006 18:28      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My attitude to The Law is simple, if it's a good law, enforce it, if it's a bad law, change it.

At the moment the US has a "look the other way" approach to illegal immigration, as many industries rely on illegal immigrants to do the jobs americans won't do (or at wages americans won't accept). This is sheer hypocrisy, and leaves a substantial fraction of the US population vulnerable to all kinds of exploitation and abuse.

So the question you need to ask yourselves is "do we really want all those farm labourers, constrction workers, retail workers, etc to just go away"? If the answer is no, then the law needs to be changed to allow them to stay on legally. If the answer is yes, then get serious about enforcing the existing laws before you start on the silly draconian bu11shyt some conservatives in the US have been thumping their chests about, and get used to the idea that you'll have to clean your own toilets and pick your own crops from now on.

btw - last I heard, around 1/3 of aussie children are being born out of wedlock, we really are a pack of [email protected]@rds ! [Wink]

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted May 28, 2006 21:09      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
End illegal imigration... Either:
1.) Open the borders... How did the founders of the US gov. get here?
2.) Anex Mexico... The only people who would suffer are the Mexican gov. officials and American copanies that moved there.

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted May 29, 2006 00:02      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
The really weird thing about all this business about illegal immigrants sucking up welfare money is it isn't happening. Why? Because, in the US, you can't get welfare unless you are a citizen or green card holder.

I'm also wondering what the rest of the industrial world does with its illegal immigrant problems. I know the US is not the only place people are trying and dying to get into (my bf's first choice was Canada, but the oppurtunity never arose, so he ended up in the US instead). How are they handling it?

BTW, as an aside, I've read that compared to many other developed countrie the US is actually easy to legally immigrate too. Considering how messy our immigration bureaucracy is, I find that a bit scary.

Switzerland’s High wages and standard of living tends to attract many out of eastern Europe. There is not that much of a problem though because if you want to live somewhere (anywhere) in Switzerland, you must register with the government. This means an illegal immigrant has to either live on the street, with relatives that have a pass, or in an apartment building with a corrupt landlord. This means that even if an illegal immigrant can find a corrupt employer that wants to save money by hiring them, they will have a harder time to find a place to live.

Many people in America would claim that having to register with the government every time you move is an invasion of privacy, but other than the fee you have to pay I see that it has mainly good repercussions. It's really easy to find people who break the law.

And one more thing. My wife is Swiss and we looked into what it would take for her to live in the US. IT is insane what is required for legal citizenship. Plus the workers in the immigration department are more incompatent that in other government workers. REALLY. YOu will ask them a question and they will tell you wrong forms to fill out and wrong amounts to pay, and whenever you frillout the wrong form or pay too much , it delays your application by about six months. (I am specifically talking about the workers int he chicago area offices.) They should all be burned at the stake using the wrong forms they make people fill out as fuel.

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littlefish
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Icon 1 posted May 29, 2006 02:53      Profile for littlefish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yee-haw! The view of the florida cracker!
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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 29, 2006 03:21      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It might be wise to wait until the end of summer before deporting all those lazy good-for-nothin' welfare scroungin' illegals.

quote:
The debate over immigration, which has filtered into almost every corner of American life in recent months, is now sweeping through the woods, and the implications could be immense for the coming fire season in the West.

As many as half of the roughly 5,000 private firefighters based in the Pacific Northwest and contracted by state and federal governments to fight forest fires are immigrants, mostly from Mexico. And an untold number of them are working here illegally.



--------------------
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Icon 1 posted May 29, 2006 07:04      Profile for Danapoppa     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
I'm also wondering what the rest of the industrial world does with its illegal immigrant problems. I know the US is not the only place people are trying and dying to get into (my bf's first choice was Canada, but the oppurtunity never arose, so he ended up in the US instead). How are they handling it?

I just happened to see something on the news about African refugees flooding into Spain via the Canary Islands. It seems they're having trouble handling the problem; but then, refugees are not quite the same as illegal immigrants.

On another subject: Am I the only person who's really bothered by the following?

quote:
Originally posted by Plcaga:
Do it with the Muslims (Burn them all!!! [devil wand] [devil wand] ) in Europe.
[Edit] - Why can't we transfer them back to THEIR countries?! [devil wand] 1-way-ticket for each one is all what we need! Come on, what will Ahmedinjad do to US (2 meanings [Razz] )?
Help the world to get rid of the cads!
--------------------
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Because no one likes them, we'll skip to the milk production...."

I've always approved of GC's laissez-faire approach to forum moderation, but there is such a thing as too much of a good thing. [Roll Eyes]
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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted May 29, 2006 07:29      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Danapoppa:

quote:
Originally posted by Plcaga:
Do it with the Muslims (Burn them all!!! [devil wand] [devil wand] ) in Europe.
[Edit] - Why can't we transfer them back to THEIR countries?! [devil wand] 1-way-ticket for each one is all what we need! Come on, what will Ahmedinjad do to US (2 meanings [Razz] )?
Help the world to get rid of the cads!
-------------------

I've always approved of GC's laissez-faire approach to forum moderation, but there is such a thing as too much of a good thing. [Roll Eyes]
I'd just (perhaps foolishly) gave him the benefit of the doubt and concluded it was tongue-in-(albeit, poorly)-cheek.

quote:
Originally posted by YaYawoman:
I do have one question for DNM though. Not trying to pick but when you were talking about illegitmate children, is it the illegitimate itself that irks you? Or is it someone having children they cant take care of? Gotta go for full disclosure here [Wink] my son is illegitimate but very well cared for and loved. (insert best new mommy cooing voice)"Mommy's little bastard, yeah" heehee sorry couldnt resist.

No, you're absolutely right -- I'm not sure the word 'illegitimate' had any place in my argument. Whether or not their parents were married or not aren't really relevant as to whether they are raised in a proper environment or not.
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Grummash

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Icon 1 posted May 29, 2006 07:32      Profile for Grummash     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Danapoppa:
On another subject: Am I the only person who's really bothered by the following?

No, you're not the only one.

When Plcaga first joined the forum, I suggested we allow a little slack for a poster who did not have English as a first language. Now I have a clear understanding of what this person wants to say and I, for one, won't be listening to anymore of it.

I don't think we should get into a flame-war with this individual, just ignore it until it gets bored and goes away.

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CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted May 29, 2006 07:55      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Nope dannapoppa,
You were not the only one. It does disturb me also. But then again that particular poster has not struck as being anyone I would have a beer with anyhow. And I was just hoping they would slink away into the cyber-night to ravage another village.

Pitchfork anyone?

--------------------
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Has one of us confessed?
'Bout the wires circuits and motors
Buried in our chest

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted May 29, 2006 08:43      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I noticed danapoppa. I just wasn't sure where to start, other than to say that with attitudes like that it's no wonder that racial tensions in Europe are at a breaking point.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
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Icon 1 posted May 29, 2006 08:53      Profile for Plcaga   Author's Homepage         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Grummash:
I don't think we should get into a flame-war with this individual, just ignore it until it gets bored and goes away.

I bet I'll stay here until August.
If the Americans can wait 2 years until Bush will leave US gov., you can wait until I'll leave. [Razz]

Posts: 70 | From: Lyon. France | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
drunkennewfiemidget
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 2814

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4
Icon 1 posted May 29, 2006 09:07      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Alternatively, we could stoop to his level and suggest there's a war somewhere he should be off surrendering at.
Posts: 4897 | From: Cambridge, ON, Canada | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Snaggy

Sir Snaggalot!
Member # 123

Member Rated:
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Icon 3 posted May 29, 2006 09:32      Profile for Snaggy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Attention Forum Folk:
Plcaga's latest comments and sig, and the input of the fine members of this outstanding community, have led me to put him in Moderation Mode, so he won't be able to post here again.

I now return you back to your regularily scheduled flamewars. [Big Grin]

Posts: 8100 | From: Canada | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
GrumpySteen

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan
Member # 170

Icon 1 posted May 29, 2006 10:16      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Attention Snaggy:

[Applause] [Applause] [Applause]

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Worst. Celibate. Ever.

Posts: 6364 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
YaYawoman

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
Member # 4505

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Icon 1 posted May 29, 2006 12:43      Profile for YaYawoman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I noticed too danapoppa but was trying to ignore him. I figured with no attention the troll would just fade away if I had responded I thought I would just be giving him more fuel for more horrible posts.(Way to go Snaggy!)

Thanks DNM. I was 99.99999 sure and I wasnt trying to pick but you have no idea of some of the reactions I have gotten. Oh, and congrats on your wedding.

Posts: 765 | From: virginia | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
garlicguy

Member # 3166

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Icon 1 posted May 29, 2006 12:59      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
YaYa - excellent topic to post for discussion.

It never ceases to amaze me how people can treat others with such disdain based merely upon the location at which their mother birthed them! This phenomenon is even more surprising when religious 'believers' have a great zeal for preventing those born in other countries from improving their lot in life via emmigration.

As another poster pointed out, how exactly did the USA come into being? By sudden explosion of native populations? No, but by waves and waves of UK and European immigrants over several centuries.
How quickly we forget or ignore our own beginnings and history.

Despite its many flaws, the United States is still a very good place to live. Which of us would rather have been born in say, Nigeria or Kenya or a hundred other deprived third world countries?

Like you expess about yourself, YaYa, I'm a bit schizo in the political area. I don't even understand who is who in claiming the ground of 'liberal' or 'conservative' anymore. I really liked what Steen had to say about kicking out (to where, I dare not suggest) the evil citizenry and granting citizenship to those who came here to work hard for it. It would indeed solve many problems. Of course, there is the immediate dilemma of who would administer and decide such a program - especially since neither of our major political parties here can be trusted to not politicize and agendize every issue...

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I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Posts: 3752 | From: Pluto, no matter what you call it, is still my home. | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged


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