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Author Topic: Are you being wire tapped?
Stereo

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Icon 1 posted May 15, 2006 09:22      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
(Sorry TFD and al.!)

ASM: but when your country won't be free anymore, what will be left to defend - or attack, for that matter?

(There are actually concerns in Canada that some Federal agencies had US firms take care of confidential personnal data, making Canadian privacy at risk from FBI+ probes without anyone's knowlege.)

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Eppur, si muove!

Galileo Galilei

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted May 15, 2006 12:49      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi All Again_____________________Back in 1966 I swore an oath of allegiance before a Chief Petty Officer of the the USN that I would defend the Constitution of the United States against all foes foreign and domestic, I would like that you read a few words by

Thomas Jefferson "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.

That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves.

Every generation needs a new revolution.

Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

History, in general, only informs us of what bad government is.

I am mortified to be told that, in the United States of America, the sale of a book can become a subject of inquiry, and of criminal inquiry too.

I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.

I sincerely believe that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale.

In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.


It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.


Liberty is to the collective body, what health is to every individual body. Without health no pleasure can be tasted by man; without liberty, no happiness can be enjoyed by society.

No man will ever carry out of the Presidency the reputation which carried him into it.

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

When you reach the end of your rope, tie a knot in it and hang on.


It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself."

Benjamin Franklin "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

Have fun with this.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted May 15, 2006 14:02      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
May 15, 2006, 12:49
Benjamin Franklin "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

By the Second Amendment (US), the right to keep and bear arms will not be infringed.

Yet, you can't board a commercial aircraft with a shotgun and 130 rounds of ammunition as carry-on luggage. To make it worse, they infringe on your privacy by demanding "proper" identification for boarding.

Obviously, the government "infringed" on your rights many years ago. Of course, a lot of people have accepted that shotguns, rifles, pistols, and hand grenades aren't allowed on flights.

If you don't want any of your rights "infringed," live alone in a cave.

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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Erbo
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Icon 1 posted May 15, 2006 15:23      Profile for Erbo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I had a longer, angrier comment to this thread, but I decided to dump it; it's not as if somebody like Colonel Panic is really listening to me anyway.

Instead, I'll quote commenter "Factfind" to the discussion thread on Kim's post I linked earlier:
quote:
In this war between terrorists and the forces of civilization, the forces of civilization are always playing defense, meaning “catch-up.” Every time journalists and their CIA leak sources give away details of the defense strategy, the terrorists change tactics and make the forces of civilization start over again. Guess which is harder?

There are those who believe that President Bush is waging a war that impinges on the civil liberties of Americans. They need to remember that it is the terrorists who are waging war—not against the President or against Republicans – but against America, our friends and our civilization.

I haven't forgotten that. Not for a minute.

Have you?

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See more From The Erbo Files: www.erbosoft.com/blog/

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 15, 2006 16:14      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
And the data that the NSA is collecting is absolutely legal for them to collect in this manner, both under multiple Federal laws (dating back to 1936) and under a Supreme Court case (Smith v. Maryland, 442 U.S. 735 (1979); go read it if you don't believe me).

Have you read it?

The 1979 decision was based on the belief that people had no "reasonable expectation of privacy" in their telephone records, so no warrant was required.
Since then, the Communication Privacy Act has been introduced, which made it illegal for telephone companies to hand over such records without a warrant, thus creating a "reasonable expectation of privacy". The 1979 decision no longer applies.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted May 15, 2006 17:00      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Actually, I was just skimming the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, and couldn't find where it refers to anything other than the content of communications. I didn't have time to do more than skim it, though, so maybe I missed something, or misread it.

I take it as part of the general insanity that followed 9/11. Some of the same people now upset about this were slinging accusations that the government didn't do enough to stop it. We got what they asked for. [ohwell]

I'm actually hoping that things like this coming to light, along with being able to actually take nail clippers on a plane, are a sign that we're awakening from our temporary insanity and trying to find a middle ground.

I'm watching to see what happens, particularly once we change administrations in 2008, but I'm not particularly worried yet.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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GMx

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Icon 1 posted May 15, 2006 17:12      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sort of related:

"Bush Speak" a Sophisticated "Deception"

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 15, 2006 17:53      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
Actually, I was just skimming the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, and couldn't find where it refers to anything other than the content of communications. I didn't have time to do more than skim it, though, so maybe I missed something, or misread it.

I was probably referring to the wrong law.

#include <IANAL.h>
This Wikipedia article may be a bit more accurate than my random uninformed ramblings.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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ASM65816
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Icon 4 posted May 15, 2006 18:16      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
May 15, 2006, 09:22
ASM: but when your country won't be free anymore, what will be left to defend - or attack, for that matter?

... I guess now that I think about it, the rights we've lost is scary.   [Roll Eyes]

When did we lose the right to walk into a saloon with a pistol on each hip and a rifle slung over the back just like the second amendment had guaranteed? And your 12-year-old boy could have a few shots of whiskey right beside you (after taking care of the horses).

I guess I lost sight of what freedom really meant... what with all the gasoline for half the price anyone else on earth paid, young women with cosmetically enhanced large breasts, owning computational machines capable of simulating the particle interactions necessary for designing nuclear weapons, high speed Internet connections, large high-definition flatscreen TV's, ... and booze.

Some of you that are "defending our rights" with such extreme intensity have to tell me:

    How did hundreds of millions of Americans ever accept losing the right to carry a shotgun on a plane?

Don't you think that you should be able to carry a shotgun on a plane?

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted May 15, 2006 18:38      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Last time I checked, you could bring a gun on a plane as checked luggage. You can't have the ammo though - that needs to be bought at your destination (kinda like fuel for camp stoves is also not allowed on planes and if you're packing a fuel bottle you'd better make sure it's empty and dry).

Would it fit under the seat in front of you or in the overhead bins? And since when was carrying live ammo in an aluminum car full of pressurized air flying at 30000+ feet a good idea?

Might be an interesting campaign to start.

Actually, I did see a guy swaggering around Talkeetna, AK witha couple sidearms of some kind. I don't think they were six shooters though. I also saw a few ATVs with rifles mounted on them. And in Kentucky people can have guns in the passenger compartments of their cars so long as they're in plain sight, so I'm told you'll see lots of people cruising around with handguns on their dashboards.

True story: when I went to Alaska three years ago to attempt the summit of Denali I had the bag I checked with all my sharp things in it inspected. I'm not sure what made them nervous. Maybe it was the ice axe. Or the crampons, Or the trekking poles. Or maybe all of it. I'm not even sure why it made them nervous. It was getting checked after all. But they took a look and then they sealed it all up with a piece of zippy cord. And my knife was in that bag. So I spent my first evening in Alaska running around the hotel trying to find a knife to cut open my luggage because my own knife was sealed up in a bag. This annoyed me so much that on my way home I wrapped all my sharp stuff up in all the sweaty, gross, smelly clothing that had been fermenting on my unwashed back or in a stuff stack for three weeks. To my dismay, no one opened the bag. But I kinda wish they had. I had some pretty pungent polypro in there. [evil]

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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cheryl
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Icon 1 posted May 16, 2006 01:09      Profile for cheryl   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Its at times like these that i am glad i live in England, Cause Damn you guys are getting screwed over there!
I havent heard so much paranoid rambling since the da vinci code became a documentry book and movie.

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dont bother running, you'll only die tired!

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted May 16, 2006 04:16      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
Don't you think that you should be able to carry a shotgun on a plane?

No. But then again, in Canada, carrying a gun is not a right, it's a privilege, just like driving a car.

Our constitution states how the levels governements works together, not what people can do. The rights of the people have been defined in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It encomprises things like freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom of religion, right to equality without regards for race, sex, etc. I should check it again, cause I'm don't remember if right to privacy is there too, or if it was added in another bill. (Maybe the Charter is due for a review.) Then there are other declarations we subscribe to, like Unicef's Convention on the Rights of the Child.

That "right to bear arms" was put into the US constitution for a specific purpose at a time when it made sense. (When the regular army can't protect the whole territory and ennemies can be found everywhere, yes, it makes sense to have the citizens able to protect their country.) Times have changed, and it doesn't make sense anymore, and why some people are unable to see that is beyond me. But that's just my opinion.

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Eppur, si muove!

Galileo Galilei

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted May 16, 2006 07:05      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:
I should check it again, cause I'm don't remember if right to privacy is there too, or if it was added in another bill.

Right #8: Everyone has the right to be secure against illegal search & seizure, which is what all that phone tapping nonsense in the States would likely fall under.

It's a slippery slope.

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted May 16, 2006 09:10      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:

That "right to bear arms" was put into the US constitution for a specific purpose at a time when it made sense. (When the regular army can't protect the whole territory and ennemies can be found everywhere, yes, it makes sense to have the citizens able to protect their country.) Times have changed, and it doesn't make sense anymore, and why some people are unable to see that is beyond me. But that's just my opinion.

Actually, the right to bear arms has a second purpose in the U.S. It was put in so that the citizens would have a means of fighting against their own government, if another rebellion were to become necessary. Check out a couple of the quotes by Thomas Jefferson that TheMoMan posted above. Distrust of our own government has never been very far below the surface here.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted May 16, 2006 10:13      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
And this is void too. Uprisings aren't won with weapons anymore, but with media. See Ukraine.

Anyway, do you seriously think the citizens would put their precious, confortable life at risk by going out to fight the army's tanks with their firearms? Very few would. And many of those enlisted in the army in the first place.

No, if you want to mistrust your governement, question it until its lies become plain for all to see. That's what Colonel Panic and the MoMan (among others) do here (and probably at other places too). And vote whenever comes an election. Don't let a corrupt governement grow into a dictatorship, have those people answer for their actions. Don't believe everything you are told by the governement's spokepersons. This way, you will never have to fight your own governement by arms nor public opinion.

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Eppur, si muove!

Galileo Galilei

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted May 16, 2006 10:48      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:
Anyway, do you seriously think the citizens would put their precious, confortable life at risk by going out to fight the army's tanks with their firearms? Very few would. And many of those enlisted in the army in the first place.

There's a very famous photograph of a lone, unarmed man standing with his shopping bags in front of a line of tanks in Tianeman (sp?) Square. When people are angry enough, desperate enough, hungry enough, pushed to the point where they feel they've nothing precious left to protect, just about anything can happen. This is something governments that wish to remain in power must always keep in mind.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted May 16, 2006 11:05      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:
And this is void too. Uprisings aren't won with weapons anymore, but with media. See Ukraine.

What makes you think that some comparatively recent successes have changed everything from now on?

quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:
Anyway, do you seriously think the citizens would put their precious, confortable life at risk by going out to fight the army's tanks with their firearms? Very few would. And many of those enlisted in the army in the first place.

That depends on a lot of things. Let's flip it around and ask if a disarmed population would put their "precious, comfortable lives at risk" to protest or question their government, if that became dangerous? You see, when there isn't much discontent, you won't get any kind of widespread uprising, armed or otherwise, so your scenario above falls a little flat.

Whether or not you believe it's necessary, allowing our population to own weapons is part of a deep-rooted tradition involving more than just a defense against invaders.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted May 16, 2006 11:05      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The question was: How did hundreds of millions of Americans ever accept losing the right to carry a shotgun on a plane?
quote:
May 15, 2006 18:38
kinda like fuel for camp stoves is also not allowed on planes ... And since when was carrying live ammo in an aluminum car full of pressurized air flying at 30000+ feet a good idea?

Basically, some things are "not good ideas" because they put many other lives at risk and can result in thousands or millions of dollars of damage.

So, in the interest of "Public Safety," or "the Welfare of Society," there are many laws that restrict, curtail, or "infringe" on rights, liberty, or whatever, and the public accepts it because it protects society in general.

Just as one example, the harm to a single city from one major terrorist attack can be well over $83 billion. This gives the government a lot of reason to try and stop all terrorist attacks, not just "most" (from the bombing of WTC in 1993 to the destruction of the WTC in 2001, stopping "the vast majority" of terrorist attacks was the policy).

In all "fairness," let's consider the other methods of "spying" to stop terrorism.

Method 1: James Bond Style -- Impersonate High Ranking Terrorist
quote:
Bond: The name's bin Laden ... Osama bin Laden. So what's the progress on all our terrorist operations. I'm going to stand over here by these plans. Pay no attention as I begin squeezing my watch over them.

Terrorist 1: Osama ... you're "white."

Terrorist 2: ... and you have a British accent.

Bond: Dirka-Dirka! Mohammed Jihad!!! (begins escape)

    [shake head]   It doesn't work.

Method 2: Team America: World Police Style -- Find Terrorism Job Fair, Join, Stop Plans for World Destruction

1. New "recruits" never get to Osama's personal secretary/intern.

2. New "recruits" can't pad resume to get position as CEO of Operations or Finance for al-Qaida.

3. New "recruits" don't get "the Big Missions."

4. New "recruits" often get suicide missions, so the effective usefulness of the "spy" is only a matter of days.

    [shake head]   Not effective either.....

About Data mining:
quote:
May 12, 2006, 05:11
How many of us could be made to look suspicious just from the phone calls we make.

Note: Not the conversation itself.

May 12, 2006, 13:18
Everyone who attended any meeting at that school, for whatever purpose, got put on the FBI 'subversive' list.... then ("everyone at another"*) meeting was also deemed to be subversive, and everyone at that meeting was added to the list.

Note: * - Edited for clarity.

#include sarcasm.h
Wow, that reminds me.... Just the other day I had on an "I luv bin Laden" T-shirt while wearing a "Nader 2008" baseball cap "gangsta' style," walked through an elementary school, a gas station, and a McDonalds, ... and within 48 hours, 9 Billion People were added to the FBI Subversive List.

Note: I had seen something about "Over 35 billion served" on McDonalds' signs, so apparently the FBI didn't put everyone from McDonalds on the list. [Roll Eyes]

quote:
May 16, 2006 07:05
Right #8: Everyone has the right to be secure against illegal search & seizure....

... It's "secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures." (Fourth Amendment. I don't want to know where "#8" came from.....)

EDIT:
quote:
Search or seizure
8. Everyone has the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure.
http://www.canlii.org/ca/const_en/const1982.html

Thanks for letting me know, Rhonwyyn. [Smile]

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted May 16, 2006 11:41      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Uhh, ASM, the "#8" came from the Canadian charter, not the US Constitution.

Other than that, I liked your James Bond scenario. It made me laugh.

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Change the way you SEE, not the way you LOOK!

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quantumfluff
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Icon 1 posted May 16, 2006 12:07      Profile for quantumfluff     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sigh.... I will never understand why people persist in believing in sliver bullets like data mining (and the whole other crop of crap foisted off on the US public in the last few years). It only catches the low hanging fruit. You can't use it against people who are intelligent enought to understand that data can be collected and are willing to take steps (although they may be inconvenient and expensive) to avoid leaving patterns.

Given that, the only thing you get is an easy way to spy on citizens, or inept terrorists. In fact, it should be easy enough to game the system to plant false trends around someone.

If my country was serious about winning "the war on terror", we would stop fighting the last battle. Right now we're locked in an escalation of what detterents we can do to prevent that last event from happening again. It's nuts. As life here gets a little less free each day, the terrorists win.

Change the rules of engagement. Stop supporting ANY governments in the Middle East and withdraw all our troops from around the world. Let Saudi Arabia use it's own money to keep the ruling family in power. Let Israel and the Palistines figure out how to live together when they realize that no one is going to prevent them from killing each other.

Oh sure, gas could shoot up to $10/gallon, but that's what it really costs. We pay a hidden tax on oil through a foreign policy that demands a huge military to protect us from the worldwide strife oil has caused.

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ASM65816
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Icon 4 posted May 16, 2006 12:45      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
May 16, 2006 12:07
Stop supporting ANY governments in the Middle East and withdraw all our troops from around the world. ... Let Israel and the Palistines figure out how to live together when they realize that no one is going to prevent them from killing each other.

Isolationism isn't the best policy.... It lends itself to "divided we fall" kind of results.
quote:
First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the labor leaders, and I did not speak out because I was not a labor leader.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak out for me.
    -- The Reverend Martin Niemöller

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
    -- Edmund Burke

The whole reason that the Mandate of Palestine (British rule) was divided into Israel and Arab territories was "to prevent them from killing each other" (by separating them).

For the outside observer, it appears the killing will never stop, and you can be killed in spite of being neither Jew nor Arab.

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted May 16, 2006 13:18      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Xanthine: Exactly. The guy didn't need a firearm. Plus, let me bet you a ten on this: had the guy been armed, the tank driver wouldn't have stopped. (And then, the governement "insisted," and forced the army to attack the unarmed demonstrators, I know. And China took an diplomatical beating for it too.)

Sxepto: need more examples? It goes from Quebec's own "Révolution tranquille" (Quiet Revolution) to the recent withrawing of France's youth employement act (or whatever it is called). I also seem to remember that the URSS's collapse had some effective civil demonstration. The US withdrew from Viet Nam from popular pressure too, IIRC. Still need more? I just need to check a few facts before giving you a dozen more examples.

Rule of thumb: A soldier won't have a second thought about killing an armed opponent (=ennemy), but likely won't attack someone who has no weapon (=civilian). (Is it still true that the soldiers are instructed not to kill someone who is praying?)

QF: I agree.

ASM: I consider a seizure done without proof, or even hint, of a criminal act unreasonnable.

Overall, I strongly believe that the greatest threat to western civilisation is the disappearance of independant press. When you accept to believe in everything that comes from one side as "truth" and dismiss everything coming from the other side as spin-doctored, you may as well surrender all your rights right away.

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Eppur, si muove!

Galileo Galilei

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Sxeptomaniac

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quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:
Sxepto: need more examples? It goes from Quebec's own "Révolution tranquille" (Quiet Revolution) to the recent withrawing of France's youth employement act (or whatever it is called).

Yeah, I remember hearing all about how non-violent those protests were.

quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:
The US withdrew from Viet Nam from popular pressure too, IIRC.

So the Vietnamese got us to leave through protesting? Wow, that's one I haven't read in any history book.

Our people were protesting, but it was their country, and they got us to leave by dragging out the war beyond our willingness to continue.

quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:
Rule of thumb: A soldier won't have a second thought about killing an armed opponent (=ennemy), but likely won't attack someone who has no weapon (=civilian). (Is it still true that the soldiers are instructed not to kill someone who is praying?)

Overall, I strongly believe that the greatest threat to western civilisation is the disappearance of independant press. When you accept to believe in everything that comes from one side as "truth" and dismiss everything coming from the other side as spin-doctored, you may as well surrender all your rights right away.

And there is exactly one of my points regarding our right to bear arms. The media is a very effective weapon these days, but there is no guarantee that will always be the case. An unarmed protestor might be less likely to be killed, but they also might be completely ignored, too, without the help of the media.

I'm not saying that armed rebellion is a necessary thing when facing a bad government, nor that peaceful protest is ineffective (I honestly think it's underused in the world today). However, I believe that our 2nd amendment right to bear arms is there for more than one reason, and that it should remain.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted May 16, 2006 16:56      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:

quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:
The US withdrew from Viet Nam from popular pressure too, IIRC.

So the Vietnamese got us to leave through protesting?
No.

quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:

Our people were protesting, (...).

Yes. We're talking about citizen overruling their own governement, remember? So the US citizens, properly informed by a free press, forced the hand of their governement out of Viet Nam.

quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
The media is a very effective weapon these days, but there is no guarantee that will always be the case.

So don't you think the rigth to a free press should be way more important, and asked for, than the right to bear arm? Yet, many citizens insist on the second, but are ready to give up the first. When US people went out to dissent about the war in Irak, they were called antipatriotic by their governement and its puppet press outlets, and many people followed blindly. THAT scares me.

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Eppur, si muove!

Galileo Galilei

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Xanthine

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I had a well-thougt out post that was lost when my computer went into an unarmed rebellion. [Razz]

There's not cookie-cutter, one-size fits all method to having a revolution. You can cite dozens of armed and unarmed uprisings that succeeded, and just as many on either side that failed. It depends on a lot of things - the personality of the group, leadership (Gandhi vs. Pol Pot), will, competence, and international support for the opposition. Best to leave your options open.

And Jefferson DID NOT write the Constitution. A whole group of men did, and one of the biggest contributors was actually James Madison, who was our 4th President and much less famous than his wife.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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