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Author Topic: Are you being wire tapped?
TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted May 12, 2006 05:11      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi All__________________This may have flown under your radar, but were you aware that the NSA is collecting your phone billing records. This is not wire tapping or phone tapping but data mining. AT&T, Verison and some other company freely give the NSA this data, only Quest would not, with out a court order. Not to fear you say, what if your favorite restaurant had a person of interest with the NSA working there, you call every week at the same time with a take out order, does that make you a person of interest? They are not tapping the call just noting that it was made. How many of us could be made to look suspicious just from the phone calls we make. Please call or write your congress person and let them know your feelings on this attempt to get around the Fourth and Fifth amendments.

Of course this only applies to our American posters or does it?

Good judgemant comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgement.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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GMx

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Icon 11 posted May 12, 2006 05:57      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That's why I never answer the phone. (Actually, I never answer the phone because I'm avoiding bill collectors)

This is just the first step that Bush, "Big Time" Dick Chaney and all the rest of their cronies are using to erode our freedoms under the guise of "protecting" us. Are they monitoring all the military industrial complex companies that are probably making under the table deals with arms dealers that aren't neccessarily all that picky about who they sell their wares to? I doubt it.

This whole business flew over the head of the Congress. I saw on the news yesterday, Patrick Leahy was holding a copy of USA Today and saying that Congress had to do a better job of keeping tabs on what the Bush administration is doing. The President and the NSA had done this without even informing the Congressional Intelligence Commitee. They learned about through the press.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted May 12, 2006 06:27      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
GMx________________________Don't get me wrong, I love my contry and fought for it, during the Vietnam era, but lately it is scaring the fsck out of me. Now how do I go about joining one of those (freedom fighters)

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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GMx

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Icon 1 posted May 12, 2006 06:29      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
Now how do I go about joining one of those (freedom fighters)

Be careful! The NSA may be monitoring this!
[Eek!]

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted May 12, 2006 06:50      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
GMx____________________Speaking of hiding things have you tryed any of the self contained Linux Distro's Damn Small linux, Slax, Knoppic and my favorite Anonym.OS it will even change the serial number of your processer and machine number while online. However if you still use the same ISP I guess that you could still be tracked, I am not sure how it would work for war driving.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted May 12, 2006 06:56      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
MoMan: I think you need a fair and balanced point of view: [Wink]
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005180.htm

Sorry...I couldn't help it - 'twas linked to it by a page that said: "It's Official: Michelle Malkin is an Idiot" [Big Grin]

Oh, and some of what's been said above is avoidable by using Tor. (tor.eff.org)

The best suggestion I can give you is to Support EFF Today!

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted May 12, 2006 07:51      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
dragonman97________________________Back during that little police action that we had in Franch IndoChina. I was attached to a ECM (Electric Counter Measures) Squadron we could routinly connect into the then countless Microwave towers that dotted the American landscape and make free phone calls, and eves drop on others. Data Mining is just that, Data Mining. Trying to find out calling patterns, how hard is it then to find out who called who?

by the way that tor site is kind of neat, not sure if it could really provide cover.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted May 12, 2006 08:21      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I never thought I'd say this, but I'm glad my services (all of them, landline, DSL connection, and ISP) are provided by Qwest.

I don't pick up my phone much either anymore. The political groups are in full fundraising mode and somehow they got my number. If my caller ID is blocked, I don't pick up. Simple as that.

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GMx

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Icon 1 posted May 12, 2006 08:38      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
GMx____________________Speaking of hiding things have you tryed any of the self contained Linux Distro's Damn Small linux, Slax, Knoppic and my favorite Anonym.OS it will even change the serial number of your processer and machine number while online. However if you still use the same ISP I guess that you could still be tracked, I am not sure how it would work for war driving.

I use OS X's "Stealth Mode" in the firewall.

quote:
"Ensures any uninvited traffic recieves no response-not even an acknowledgement that your computer exists."
Edit: An example of someone trying to find out just what AT&T gave the government.

Were records of my calls included in the data dumps to the NSA?

"We don't give any information about matters of national security," was his response. Asking again with different wording, the representative replied similarly, saying "any information that we give to the federal government would be related to national security," and therefore he would not say anything more.

Are you saying my customer records are a matter of national security, I asked.

"I couldn't tell you if it was," he said.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 12, 2006 13:18      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
Hi All__________________This may have flown under your radar, but were you aware that the NSA is collecting your phone billing records. This is not wire tapping or phone tapping but data mining. AT&T, Verison and some other company freely give the NSA this data, only Quest would not, with out a court order. Not to fear you say, what if your favorite restaurant had a person of interest with the NSA working there, you call every week at the same time with a take out order, does that make you a person of interest?

A technique pioneered in the 1970s by that well-known defender of liberty, Augusto Pinochet. A great many Chileans 'disappeared' after showing up on the kind of charts this data mining produces.

If you want an example of how easy to is to become a 'suspect' in the eyes of The Professionally Paranoid, here's a little example from yesteryear....

Back in the 1930s, a bunch of well-meaning lefties got together and opened a school in the appalachians to teach basic literacy and numeracy to the poor mining folk. It being a schoool run by lefties, it was also involved in teaching basic literacy and organising skills to union representatives from nearby mines. They even held classes for *gasp* black folk, and later became involved in the civl rights movement.

As with many other schools, the premises were rented out for meetings to various other community groups, stamp-collectors clubs and the like.

Everyone who attended any meeting at that school, for whatever purpose, got put on the FBI 'subversive' list.

The FBI also attended other meeting places in the area, and if more than a certain proportion of cars in the parking lot were on their list, then that meeting was also deemed to be subversive, and everyone at that meeting was added to the list. So if you were in the model-railway club, and too many of your fellow club members were also stamp-collectors, you went on the list, even if you'd never been to the lefty school.

Think this couldn't happen today? A year or so before the September 11 attacks, 2 (or 3?) of the hijackers attended a wedding. The spooks got hold of a guest list, and attendees got dragged in for *ahem* 'questioning'. How'd you like to be water-boarded for the the activities of your wifes friends cousins?

--------------------
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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted May 12, 2006 13:29      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
May 12, 2006 05:11
How many of us could be made to look suspicious just from the phone calls we make.

My response to another post on Jan 07, 2006, 21:32 in the topic "It just gets WORSE..." in forum Your News!
quote:
Gee, I didn't know you were making so many calls to Yemen and Syria.
There are billions of minutes of US / International calls each year. The quantity of domestic (US-to-US) calls is far greater than that. In the end, the NSA is still looking for International calls because: 1) that's what gives them authority to monitor, and 2) if it's "impossible" to monitor "all" of the International calls, then the task of monitoring "all" International and Domestic calls is absolutely futile. (I'm kind of curious what it is that you think makes your calls look "suspicious." (Ooops, actually ... don't tell me.)

quote:
May 12, 2006 07:51
Back during that little police action that we had in Franch IndoChina. I was attached to a ECM (Electric Counter Measures) Squadron we could routinly connect into the then countless Microwave towers that dotted the American landscape....

Which is it? You were in "French IndoChina"? You were in the "American landscape"? Making "free phone calls" seems like a personal activity.

Something I saw in another thread: "Is this really from the papers?"
quote:
(from news articles May 06, 2006 14:24)
Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia....
  ...
There's only one law in Australia, it's the Australian law. For those coming to Australia, I think we ought to be very clear about that. We expect them to recognize only one law and to observe it.

(GC member, May 06, 2006 15:23)
The thing you have to understand about John Howard is that he's a racist [email protected]@rd....

(GC member May 06, 2006 18:29)
Thanks for the heads up, so there isn't much difference in politics no matter where you go.

Apparently, Anarchy is best to some people.

When people don't "recognize laws" and don't "observe laws," it's Anarchy.

Any government that actually intends to serve and protect its citizens will enforce its laws. It will not let people choose to live by "the law of the Jungle," or "the law of Silence," or "the law of the Spanish Inquisition," or whatever, as alternatives.

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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Erbo
Discontinued


Icon 1 posted May 12, 2006 13:52            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
For better perspective on what the NSA is actually doing, read what Kim du Toit has to say.

Kim compares what the NSA is doing to what supermarkets do with the databases they build up from their club-card shoppers--a subject on which he speaks with some authority, because he used to run one of those customer databases.

Basically, in both databases, nobody will even look at most of the raw data that is collected...but you have to collect all of it, because you don't know in advance which of it is going to be worth collecting.

And the data that the NSA is collecting is absolutely legal for them to collect in this manner, both under multiple Federal laws (dating back to 1936) and under a Supreme Court case (Smith v. Maryland, 442 U.S. 735 (1979); go read it if you don't believe me).

What do you bet that most of the people screeching about "invasion of privacy" here are the same ones that were screeching about the government failing to "connect the dots" prior to 9/11?

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted May 12, 2006 13:56      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Erbo, there's a reason I've never actually gone through the full registration process with my Safeway and King Soopers cards (you don't HAVE to send those little forms in y'know). [Razz]

Just to throw a wrench in to the mix....

I realize that a lot of you aren't registered with the NYT and probably don't want to. I tried to find this article on a site that doesn't require registration but wasn't having much luck.

So here's the first coupla paragraphs that'll give you the gist of what the NYT article is all about:

quote:

Qwest's Refusal of N.S.A. Query Is Explained
By JOHN O'NEIL and ERIC LICHTBLAU

Published: May 12, 2006

WASHINGTON, May 12 The telecommunications company Qwest turned down requests by the National Security Agency for private telephone records because it concluded that doing so would violate federal privacy laws, a lawyer for the telephone company's former chief executive said today.

n a statement released this morning, the lawyer said that the former chief executive, Joseph N. Nacchio, made the decision after asking whether "a warrant or other legal process had been secured in support of that request."

Mr. Nacchio learned that no warrant had been granted and that there was a "disinclination on the part of the authorities to use any legal process," said the lawyer, Herbert J. Stern. As a result, the statement said, Mr. Nacchio concluded that "the requests violated the privacy requirements of the Telecommunications Act."

A Qwest spokesman, Robert Toevs, declined to discuss anything to do with security issues or the statement by Mr. Nacchio's lawyer.

Looks like the feds are breaking their own laws.

Oh, and here's something really old-fashioned and out-dated to be kept in mind in these times of strife.

quote:
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I don't think I've made any international phone calls, save to an insurance call center in Canada (long story) and I'm sure I'm not on any watchlists 'cuz I had to have a background check last November and I came up clean (clean enough to use the synchrotron at least). That said, I stand by what I said before: for the first time in my life, I'm glad my telecommunications services are provided by Qwest. In all other ways they're a bunch of bastards, but they got this one right.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 12, 2006 15:58      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
Kim compares what the NSA is doing to what supermarkets do with the databases they build up from their club-card shoppers--a subject on which he speaks with some authority, because he used to run one of those customer databases.

And because Kim never once had the supermarket SWAT team raid a customers home and drag them off to secret supermarket prison in Afghanistan to be tortured for information on their purchasing habits, we can be sure that the NSA will never do that either.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted May 12, 2006 16:11      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
All the while the terrorists are using pre-paid cell phones, dumping them, then buying new ones every couple of weeks.

Last I was told Osama is in Pakistan, not in the USA.

Sounds like a monumental waste of taxpayer dollars and an unwarranted expansion of government and governmental powers.

It would be comforting to have a President who was at war with the enemy instead of the American people.

CP

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted May 12, 2006 16:22      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
ASM65816_________________It seems that I have touched a nerve with you, I did serve a full enlistment with the US Navy four years. I attended many Navy schools, I was qualified as a Field Medic for the Marine Corps and as part of a recovery team for the Seals, that said because I was group Nine of the Geneva accord I could not go into combat with the Seals, I however did teach field first aid to them. The ECM squadron I was attached to wanted me cross educated so if we lost a plane out of bounds I would be able to be in on the rescue, due to the many layers of security I was behind I can not tell you where or how I was deployed, however there is not much of the oceans I have not sailed or flown over.

I do believe in laws and rule of law however I believe that even the government must adhere to the law, I love my country however I am starting to not trust the governing powers.

CP____________________I have to concur with your remarks, you must have posted while I was working on my reply.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted May 13, 2006 08:04      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
And the data that the NSA is collecting is absolutely legal for them to collect in this manner, both under multiple Federal laws (dating back to 1936) and under a Supreme Court case (Smith v. Maryland, 442 U.S. 735 (1979); go read it if you don't believe me).

Silly Erbo, still getting your facts from Fox News Superhero Comic Books are you?

Chief counsel of Qwest advised his company not to divulge, and the CEO agreed. Here's one of the many articles on the subject: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12752868

Here's another link: ttp://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/13/washington/13phone.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5094&en=a4043f2e748ca48a&hp&ex=1147579200&partner=homepage

One of the legal grounds Qwest looked at was the Communications Privacy Act of 1986, http://floridalawfirm.com/privacy.html

Check it out, the act specifies that if this kind of information ends up in anybody's hands, that the company providing the information owes me $1000. Multiply that by all people who were violated and SBC, Verizon and AT&T are looking at a multi-billion dollar class action suit.

That supercedes anything Fox Superhero Comics has given you to parrot in internet forums. In fact the history of the case shows the NSA didn't think the FISA court would approve the action, and John Ashcroft himself would not approve a warrant, either.

Why? Because the Communications Privacy Act is clear. And there is no probable cause to spy on America. And the NSA's charter is specific for them gather foreign intelligence, and Americans aren't foreigners. And because this kind of thing makes some of John Ashcroft's conservative supporters (can you say the "NRA?" Of course you can) very, very nervous.

I know you're ready to hit the "liberal" button here, or maybe go supernuclear by blaming the Clintons, but the fact is that in 1986, the President who signed this act was (let's all bow our heads in reverent genuflection) Ronald Reagan. (MUSIC UP/ANGELIC CHOIR: AHHHHHHHH!).

(My reverent mention of Ronald Reagan trumps any of your mentions of "Liberal" or "Clinton." You can check that out in your personal copy of "Boot-licking, Fox-Toady Guide to Internet Propaganda.")

I know you and your Big Government, Big Brother friends would love to change history on this one, but there was a time when true conservatives roamed the earth and didn't believe in nation building, throwing money at problems, expanding government into people's lives, and this current Rube Golberg spying boondoggle the way you do.

In fact, here's a nice little story from the NRA that details the kind of horrible things that happen when the government interferes with the lives of innocent people: http://land.netonecom.net/tlp/ref/weaver.shtml

Yep, Randy Weaver's wife and kid dead as a doornail, "What happened to Randy Weaver can happen to anybody!" conservatives railed. Here, you apparently change your colors. Didn't you write something about "Gun Grabbers" recently? Now it seems you betray those principles. If I have phone call patterns, then I have your calls to the gun shop, the shooting range, and other "shadow" groups you may be fond of. And in two-and-a-half years Hillary will have those lists, (quoting my favorite Canadian, Count Floyd, "Ooooo, Scary, kids.) and it will be your turn to take a trip to Gitmo.

All I see here, Erb, is that you appear to be part of this neo-con, big-government, big-lie, Fox News Super Hero comic book movement. Your principles and morals seem to be at the mercy of some Republican lobbyist's cash-and-call-girl list.

And from what I read and the polls, both the left and the true right are sick and tired of it.

Colonel Panic

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted May 13, 2006 22:09      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I am to the right of most people here, and I too am against this. I've been considering moving to GPG encrypted Voice over IP, but that requires me convincing the people I contact often to move to it. More importantly, most of the time I'm calling a cell or from my cell (well, until I lost it).

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted May 14, 2006 04:35      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
GameMaster_________________________That would not help as the tracking is to number called. That can't be faked because you would be getting wrong numbers. Maybe the Amish have it right.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted May 14, 2006 13:15      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
GameMaster_________________________That would not help as the tracking is to number called. That can't be faked because you would be getting wrong numbers. Maybe the Amish have it right.

Except, with Voice over IP, most of the time the call is packets on the internet. And, if your using GPG, it's all over the internet. There would be no way of knowing if it was a call, except for the port and who it goes through. Add a proxy, and ssh tunneling, and then it's unclear what your doing, except that your sshing to machine that is connection to a Voice over IP server. Then, voice over IP servers will begin to be asked for the same data, so more to a non-US server, and don't use any services that use landlines (because they couldn't get the encrypted call anyway).

Now, we just have to get all our grandmother's to replace their phones with computer's and teach them to encypt and unencrypt, to use proxy servers and explain why they can't call uncle herb yet. Hmmm... Hence the reason I don't use GPG encrpyted Voice over IP.

Heck, even with e-mail I'm 90% sure no one I send a signed e-mail bothers to check the signature. And, I don't know many geeks IRL with GPG key, where I can encrypt to them.

Moreover, I still know a large number of people on campus use telnet... I wish the servers would turn off the telnet ports. The campus network guys solution is to turn off jacks of people who use known and detectable traffic sniffers... That's no solution, by the time it's noticed lord knows how many passwords have been sniffed.

Not to mention the campus's main server's passwd file is world readable, and encryped in any DES. I don't need to tell you how stupid this is. The Uni uses this password for the campus AD, e-mail system and a few other web applications. It boggles the mind.

Then again, how many times have you seen people go to a site with a SSL certificate, and fork over important detailed information without checking who issued the certificate.

I don't think the majority of people, even most geeks, really care about privacy. I have no problem with people knowing who/where I am. But there is other information that I don't want the world to know about me.

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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted May 14, 2006 16:23      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Making "free phone calls"....
...
May 12, 2006, 16:22
ASM65816, It seems that I have touched a nerve with you....

[ohwell]   No.... I thought you might be saying something boneheaded. "Back in the day," there were 14-year-olds in the US with soldering irons and parts from Radio Shack that also made "free phone calls" ("phreaking" -- including international calls). If you have to use million-dollar-equipment to do the same thing, don't brag or act like it's James Bond tech.

quote:
May 12, 2006, 16:11
All the while the terrorists are using pre-paid cell phones, dumping them, then buying new ones every couple of weeks.

[Confused]   Uh ... are you trying to argue for why a computer should be allowed to flag and tap a call instead of waiting for humans to decide if it's worth issuing a warrant? By your statement, if call origins and destinations are not tracked, then it would be "extremely difficult" (impossible) to establish terrorist calling patterns (because there would be almost no data to match against known terrorists), and warrants would never get issued before phones were "dumped."

Anyway ("off topic") ... There are two things that really bother me about the "Bush/America is Evil" crowd:

Lie #1: "We care about human rights. / We oppose murder."

Lie #2: "We believe in the rule of law."


After seeing more than three years of "these members' posts," the following categories can be applied to how strongly they believe in things:

* Very Strong: Posts have a distinct hateful tone, and may contain name-calling, vulgarity, or personal attacks.

* Moderate/Mundane: Posts are ordinary day to day stuff that anyone might make.

* Don't Care/Refuse to Acknowledge: Basically, because these posts "don't exist," there's obviously no effort to defend or support such statements. If an "acknowledgment" is made on such a point, it will be followed with "the point is irrelevant."

As an example of "Acknowledgment" for a "Don't Care" issue:
quote:
May 01, 2006 17:29
You see? still blathering on that Saddam being an evil bastard. Listen ASM. That is not news. We all know that. Understand?

#include sarcasm.h
Boy, that's some vicious condemnation of evil! Nobody could hate evil-ness more than that!

Of course, maybe the point was that: It's discrimination and bias to give a "good" person preferential treatment over an "evil" person, just because of a lack of misdeeds and malicious intent. However, in the real world, the difference between "murder," "manslaughter," and an "accident" are often decided based on the intent and nature of a person.

quote:
(from news article, May 06, 2006 14:24)
Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia.... There's only one law in Australia, it's the Australian law. ... We expect them to recognize only one law and to observe it.

(GC member, May 06, 2006 15:23)
The thing you have to understand about John Howard is that he's a racist [email protected]@rd....

(GC member May 06, 2006 18:29)
Thanks for the heads up, so there isn't much difference in politics no matter where you go.

A public official in Australia insists that people in Australia recognize and observe Australian law, and two GC members "attack" his position. This is open condemnation of "Rule of Law."

#include sarcasm.h
GC member: "I absolutely and wholeheartedly believe in the rule of law ... except for Australian law, and British law, and US law, and International law, and ....... (and on, and on)"

quote:
March 20, 2006, 04:17
There is a logical error in your post ..., as you confuse Socialism with Marxism.

In this post we have "condemnation" over not recognizing the difference between "Socialism" and Marxism, but the same person is "silent" about the millions upon millions that were killed by "socialist governments." Conclusion: Socialism getting a "bad name" is cause for speaking out, millions dead is not.

quote:
May 01, 2006, 16:20, "silence" in response to the mention that trinkets were given to children so they would march through minefields and die so that Iranian soldiers would not have to clear mines.

Note: There are dozens of other stories of senseless death and murder where the blame goes to non-Americans (like in Darfur), and none of them produce 1% of the "outrage" from "Bush lied."

The murder of millions is obvious, and no one cares because they can't find a good way to blame the US. Overwhelming silence makes it clear that the ones "outraged" at Bush feel "nothing" for the millions dead at the hands of tyrants and fanatics.

#include sarcasm.h
GC member: "I believe in promoting world peace, supporting human rights, and preventing the murder of innocents, that's why I'm not going to say anything about Darfur."

quote:
May 06, 2006 15:23)
The thing you have to understand about John Howard is that he's a racist [email protected]@rd, and is only in the job because he's very good at courting the racist vote.

[shake head]     When there is no reasonable defense for something, call your critic a racist. Is it reasonable to execute cartoonists for their depiction of religious figures? Is it reasonable to execute people for no longer following a religion (apostasy)? Last time I saw the news, the ones who want Sharia law the most are the ones who want these execution "laws" enforced. Looks like "someone" couldn't care less about "rule of law" or a person's right to live, but he'll use any attack he can when his views are opposed.

The "Anti-America / Bush is Evil" Position Is NOT Hypocrisy. (It's lies.)

If all nations were "doing the same thing," a Hypocrite would say "China, Russia, the US, and Britain are Evil, but my nation is Good."

In matters of "rule of law" and killing innocent people, "they" do not condemn: Communism, Sudan/Darfur, Iran, the United Nations, the people beheading truck drivers in Iraq, and on, and on, and on...... It would take pages to cover the major "atrocities" that these people "refuse" to condemn. The only "rule of law" they want are the technicalities and loopholes to escape punishment.

This is not hypocrisy, because it's "Lying About One's Non-Existent Moral Values to Further an Agenda of Hate."

(Just a personal observation.)

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

Posts: 1035 | From: Third rock from sun. | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
GameMaster
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 1173

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Icon 1 posted May 14, 2006 20:56      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
ASM, you've managed to speak much but say very little... As we are used to from you. You keep quoting some other thread on an unrelated topic and try and use it to argue something of other with it... Still not clear on what.

The law, the supreme law states:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Now, clearly, the phone companies are being asked to hand it over, not ordered, and without a warrent.

Also relivent is:
http://news.com.com/Congress+may+consider+mandatory+ISP+snooping/2100-1028_3-6066608.html?tag=nefd.top
Notice the author/sponsor of this legislation is a Democrat (those who think this is a part issue).

This stuff is spreading, it is an invassion of privacy which shouldn't be tollereated.

--------------------
My Site

Posts: 3038 | From: State of insanity | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 1769

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Icon 1 posted May 14, 2006 21:19      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
The law, the supreme law states:

 -

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
TheMoMan
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 1659

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Icon 1 posted May 15, 2006 03:24      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TFD__________________This is so much fun just like going down to the local bridge and tossing bread to the ducks:

http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2006/04/29/us-asserts-state-secrets-privilege-in-att-lawsuit/

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
ASM65816
SuperBlabberMouth!
Member # 712

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Icon 2 posted May 15, 2006 09:03      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
May 12, 2006 05:11
This is not wire tapping or phone tapping but data mining.

Some of the biggest users of data mining are supermarkets and retail chains. They use it so they can figure out the best time and place and how to advertise. Going through airport security is far, far more intrusive, but it's implemented because of the amount of losses at risk. If that really scares you, get a fishing boat and spend the rest of your life on the ocean (unless you're allergic to seafood).

One estimate for New York City alone was $83 billion of loss over the two years following the 9/11 attacks. If "Data Mining" prevents an act of terrorism on the scale of the World Trade Center attack, I have to wonder if your "privacy" (which you've "lost" to grocery stores already) is worth a billion dollars, much less $83 billion.

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

Posts: 1035 | From: Third rock from sun. | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged


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