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Author Topic: Intelligent Design or Darwin?
Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted March 31, 2006 18:30      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/31/AR2006033101261.html

You gotta long row to hoe here to argue anything having to do with the word "intelligence" here.

Frankly I'm kinda glad that guys this dumb won't be breeding anymore.

CP

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GMx

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Icon 1 posted March 31, 2006 18:37      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It took some balls to do that. [Wink]
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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted March 31, 2006 19:35      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I guess their clients were just cut out to be bachelors [Wink]

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TMBWITW,PB

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Icon 1 posted March 31, 2006 20:39      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I can understand the misdemeanor charges of practicing medicine w/o a license, but it seems a bit ridiculous to me tto charge them with felonies for doing something they were asked to do--assuming the willing participants knew the people performing the procedures weren't licensed. It's not like they were doing home abortions in South Dakota.

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted March 31, 2006 20:44      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It certainly sounds like these guys were a few nuts short of a party mix!

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maybe.logic
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Icon 1 posted April 01, 2006 01:58      Profile for maybe.logic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
At least it says that they found some anesthetic along with scalpels, sutures, bandages,and artificial replacement testicles in the house in 'Haywood County' [Applause]
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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted April 01, 2006 08:42      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Whoa...

I didn't know that "castration without malice" was a crime.

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zesovietrussian
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Icon 1 posted April 01, 2006 09:28      Profile for zesovietrussian     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
Whoa...

I didn't know that "castration without malice" was a crime.

Wouldn't "eunuchization" be a more fitting term?
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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted April 01, 2006 10:16      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Maybe, but the article said they were charged with "castration without malice". I wonder who was responsible for that law being made and passed...

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
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Demosthenes
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Icon 1 posted April 01, 2006 14:56      Profile for Demosthenes     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sex laws are bullshit and fuel the concept that different = bad. It's also a stepping stone: once the "shocking" cases of kinksters set the precedent, people will be more likely to show support for sex laws when the same light is cast on homosexuals. [Mad]
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supergoo

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Icon 1 posted April 01, 2006 22:48      Profile for supergoo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Wow, my state is really sketchy...

[Eek!]

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Icon 1 posted April 03, 2006 00:17      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Demosthenes:
Sex laws are bullshit and fuel the concept that different = bad. It's also a stepping stone: once the "shocking" cases of kinksters set the precedent, people will be more likely to show support for sex laws when the same light is cast on homosexuals. [Mad]

Except that the general trend, even including our current far right administration, has been to give more rights to homosexuals, not fewer. The "sex laws" on the books are generally not recent legislation. The only exception I can think of would be those banning homosexual marriage, which are intended to hold the status quo, not be stepping stones.

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Demosthenes
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Icon 1 posted April 03, 2006 09:06      Profile for Demosthenes     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
Except that the general trend, even including our current far right administration, has been to give more rights to homosexuals, not fewer. The "sex laws" on the books are generally not recent legislation. The only exception I can think of would be those banning homosexual marriage, which are intended to hold the status quo, not be stepping stones.

There was a state law passed in MA and a few others recently that outlaws some of the things I happen to quite enjoy, whether they're consensual or not...under the guise of "protecting women from domestic violence." State sex laws flip-flop endlessly, and are only really reported when they legalize an act, lest people get angry about the wrong things. (This is an administration that wants to encourage anger from the religious right, not from the lefty sex-freaks whose rights are being taken away.)
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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted April 03, 2006 09:23      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Demosthenes:
There was a state law passed in MA and a few others recently that outlaws some of the things I happen to quite enjoy,

[Eek!]
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Erbo
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Icon 1 posted April 03, 2006 10:18            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
There's some real freaking whackjobs out there.

This is similar to that case in Germany a couple of years back, which involved one guy killing and eating another; his defense was that the "victim" consented to be dismembered and eaten. This was widely discussed on some legal blogs, looking at the question "Can 'consent' be a defense to murder?"

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted April 03, 2006 12:03      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Erbo, whether you meant to or not you're touching on a very important point with regards to consent, and that is when is consent valid? It's easy to say always, but the reality is never so simple. When there's an imbalance of power in a relationship, saying no can be hard, and when someone says yes becasue they're afriad to say no, that's not consent. That's trying not to get hurt. Big difference. This is one of the reasons why romances between teachers and students and supervisors and supervisees are frowned upon, and may also be why people tend to cringe at large age differences within relationships. Another factor that casts shades of grey into consent is the mental state of the one giving the consent or making the requests. Who in their right mind truly wishes to be killed and eaten, and who in their right mind would grant such a request? I realize that this is a hard balance to strike, and I'm not saying kinky people are insane. In fact, I'm sure most aren't. But, at the same time, an insane person really can't give consent. Nor can someone in an altered state of consciousness (ie, right after or during a seizure, drunk, high on drugs, not conscious at all, severely hypo or hyperglycemic, hypoxic, end stages of dementia, etc.) give consent. To accept the consent from someone who can't give it is exploitation. Some of the laws on the books are there to try and clear up some of these shades of grey. I'm not sure they do a good job, but that's why they're there. And you do have to wonder at the sanity of a physically healthy person who wants to be neutered.

As far as laws against homosexuals go, Demo, you are aware that the anti-sodomy laws found in many states, counties, and cities were there before your parents were born, right? Do you really think they were targeted at straight people?

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted April 03, 2006 12:50      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I was working on an answer here, but it seems Xanthine pretty much covered what I was going to mention. I'm willing to lay odds that if the now illegal behavior can be interpreted as abuse, then abusers have attempted to use that behavior as a cover.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted April 03, 2006 13:39      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
As someone who is generally on the right...

quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
There's some real freaking whackjobs out there.

This is similar to that case in Germany a couple of years back, which involved one guy killing and eating another; his defense was that the "victim" consented to be dismembered and eaten. This was widely discussed on some legal blogs, looking at the question "Can 'consent' be a defense to murder?"

Yes. He posted an advertisment, stating exsactly what he was planning on doing. He video taped it, and asked several times "Are you sure?" "Do you really want to do this?" and the like.

The laws against suicide, murder and late term abortion are there to protect the right to live. That said, I can willingly give up most of my rights; why should the right to live be different.

I very strongly believe that the argument about if abortion is murder or not is all just an argument about when "life begins". I have no moral problem with the morning after pill being offered, because it prevents pregnacy, not abort an exsisting life. I have a problem with abortions after the heart and brain are both active. There is a period in between the two, that I've not made up my mind about... There are several mildstones that would be resonable definitions for the collection of cells becomes a "human".

Suicide and abortion are linked in an unusal way. It often thought that anyone wanting to die, "must be insaine or under stress, and unable to make rational choices. So, we have to make the choice for them." Likewise, laws against late term abortion are about protecting "a child's rights, when the child is unable to speak their own will, yet." The problem with the law against suicide is that there are times when a rational person may want to reasonably terminate their own life. I'm sure how to change sucide laws to reflect this conflict. I believe that there are times when it is just temporary state, and would be a huge mistake; but is it really the government's job to prevent us from harming ourselves?

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted April 03, 2006 14:00      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Just a clarification: late term abortions don't (and shouldn't) happen because Mom decides at the eleventh hour she doesn't want the baby. They happen because either Baby's killing Mom or it's been discovered that Baby's too sick to survive (or even, in some cases, already dead). Chew that one over before getting on the late-term bandwagon.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted April 03, 2006 14:02      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
And you do have to wonder at the sanity of a physically healthy person who wants to be neutered.

When my mother had her tubes tied (years ago), whe wanted them to take out the uterous so she'd stop having periods. The doctor refued to take out a "perfectly healthy organ". He thought she was crazy.

Is wanting to have tubes tied (either sex) a crazy demand?

Is wanting to have your tonsils out, dispite no history of strep/sore throght an insane request?

Moreover, what about sex change operations?

Other elective surgeries? Breast implants? Botox(sp?)? Collogen inplants? Face lifts? Hell, only people who have mental problems with self esteam would want to undergo these needless surgeries.

And, does one give up their rights when they become insane? Should they?

As far as laws against homosexuals go, Demo, you are aware that the anti-sodomy laws found in many states, counties, and cities were there before your parents were born, right?
She is aware of them -- I'd gather, but she points to recent legislation as well.

Do you really think they were targeted at straight people?
<tone accent="southern-drawl" style="sarcastic">
Yes, by and large. In fact a lot of sodomy laws were passed in "the bible belt" to prevent "sex for enjoyment", because the only reason for sex is OBVIOUSLY procreation... Sure, there were a number of them to stop other "cazies" from enjoying them selves, too. But by and large, we want to make sure that our gals don't go enjoying their womanly duties.</tone>

I find it odd that there are a so many laws that are just not enforced anymore, but no one takes them off the books. There are a lot of just plain silly laws that are still on the books. A lot of old, outdated, nolonger enforced or plain stupid state laws need to repealed at all levels.

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted April 03, 2006 14:15      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
Just a clarification: late term abortions don't (and shouldn't) happen because Mom decides at the eleventh hour she doesn't want the baby. They happen because either Baby's killing Mom or it's been discovered that Baby's too sick to survive (or even, in some cases, already dead). Chew that one over before getting on the late-term bandwagon.

I wasn't talking about late in the term, not "Late-Term Abortion". Seems the brain and heart are devloped on average by about week 6.

That said, in regards to late-term aborions. I never understood how Late-Term abortions were easier on a mother (who has a serious risk of death) than regular birthing. Seems eitherway they have to fully deliver a mostly/fully developed baby... In such a case, wouldn't a C-section be the way to go, unless the health problem would prevent the doctors from doing this. I know that doctors do what is best for the mother and child; but, I'm just curious how this is safer to the mother.

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Erbo
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Icon 1 posted April 03, 2006 14:35            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
Erbo, whether you meant to or not you're touching on a very important point with regards to consent, and that is when is consent valid? It's easy to say always, but the reality is never so simple. When there's an imbalance of power in a relationship, saying no can be hard, and when someone says yes becasue they're afriad to say no, that's not consent. That's trying not to get hurt. Big difference. This is one of the reasons why romances between teachers and students and supervisors and supervisees are frowned upon, and may also be why people tend to cringe at large age differences within relationships. Another factor that casts shades of grey into consent is the mental state of the one giving the consent or making the requests. Who in their right mind truly wishes to be killed and eaten, and who in their right mind would grant such a request? I realize that this is a hard balance to strike, and I'm not saying kinky people are insane. In fact, I'm sure most aren't. But, at the same time, an insane person really can't give consent. Nor can someone in an altered state of consciousness (ie, right after or during a seizure, drunk, high on drugs, not conscious at all, severely hypo or hyperglycemic, hypoxic, end stages of dementia, etc.) give consent. To accept the consent from someone who can't give it is exploitation. Some of the laws on the books are there to try and clear up some of these shades of grey. I'm not sure they do a good job, but that's why they're there. And you do have to wonder at the sanity of a physically healthy person who wants to be neutered.

I haven't read all the legal blogs that my friend and EMinds cohost Boldface has read, Xanthine, but I'm sure they touched on the issue of whether or not the 'consent' in this case was/would be/should have been legally valid. Can anyone really 'consent' to give up their own life in such a manner?

On the other hand, there are contexts in which it is considered praiseworthy for a person to give up their own life...in defense of another, for instance, or of many others (as in the case of soldiers). My cousin died in a similar fashion, trying to halt a rolling car that held her infant daughter. "Greater love hath no man," and all that.

But I'm still convinced that the guy who consented to be eaten, and the other guys who consented to be castrated, were complete mental cases.

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted April 03, 2006 16:21      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
But I'm still convinced that the guy who consented to be eaten, and the other guys who consented to be castrated, were complete mental cases.
Sounds like severe cases of body dysmorphic disorder.

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toobe

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Icon 1 posted April 03, 2006 16:48      Profile for toobe   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
Is wanting to have your tonsils out, dispite no history of strep/sore throght an insane request?

Moreover, what about sex change operations?

Other elective surgeries? Breast implants? Botox(sp?)? Collogen inplants? Face lifts? Hell, only people who have mental problems with self esteam would want to undergo these needless surgeries.

<sidebar>
While I see what point you're trying to make, GM, I have to point out that sex change operations are not exactly elective. If a male spontaneously grew breasts, I daresay his surgery to have them removed would be deemed necessary. Any transgendered person will tell you that a sex change is not something that can be compared to a face lift or pre-emptive tonsillectomy.
</sidebar>

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted April 03, 2006 17:29      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think elective surgery is insane in general, especially if you have to go all the way under to have it, but I might be a bit extreme like that.

I'm not saying that everyone who gets plastic surgery is crazy as there are some unlucky souls who for one reason or another really need it (burn victims and children born with cleft palates come to mind), but for the majority of the population a long hard look at one's priorities and self-esteem might be a safer bet. If it ain't broken don't fix it.

As far as late term abortions go, GM, I'm not sure what all can go wrong during a pregnancy, but I do know that life-threatening complications aren't necessarily delivery-related. I've heard of some cases of cancer where tumor growth was accelerated by the hormones produced during pregnancy. What does one do in that situation? I've heard of others where the mother contracted CMV while pregnant, which is fine for Mom but will most liklely cause severe defects in the baby. What happens then? Just carrying a child is hard and fraught with trouble - ask any pregnant woman what kind of changes her body has undergone in the course of growing a baby and you're bound to get an earful. Some things like morning sickness are no fun but par for the course. Others, like gestational diabetes, are a bit hairier. C-sections themselves are not exactly safe either, and while they might save a mother who's run into trouble during delivery they aren't going to save a mother who's developed a serious illness due to or during her pregnancy, and a C-section is downright useless if the fetus is already dead or dying inside the mother.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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