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Author Topic: culture shock
Jace Raven

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Icon 1 posted February 28, 2006 11:17      Profile for Jace Raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Something that I've found very interesting; feel free to discuss.

Iraq has a bisexual type of culture. I guess it would be more appropiate to say that it has an excepting tolerance towards bisexuality. Just as heterosexuality in America is never frowned upon, bisexuality stands to be an acceptable form for every man. "Men are for pleasure, women are for procreation" is how it was explained to me by an Iraqi.

The most unnerving thing to a new marine in a hostile environment is when someone who could very well be a potential enemy grabs you by the arm and begins to walk with you while not breaking eye contact and getting really "comfortable."

The most interesting part is how accostomed you become to it and how much you "miss" it when you get back to our anti-personal habbits as Americans.

I can't say I've ever seen a culture anything like it before. The only thing that can even come close to compare is that of the Japanese.

What impresses me even more is when the Allied forces came in and began allowing for Third Country Nationalists (TCN's) to work for us, and most of which are Iraqi Nationalists, the women began taking in our culture and "impowering" themselves with rights, pride, and power. Some have stopped wearing the traditional robes and stopped covering their faces. Some are wearing jeans and halter tops. This all begins to make me wonder if this "war on terrorism" isn't only about terrorism. I begin to wonder if it has something to do with the spread of a "democracy" or even moreso a way of life.

I've heard people from other nations, even the military of other nations say that us, as Americans are pig headed and think that our way of life is the right way of life and to go from one extreme to another, what, if the spread of Western Civilization is our true intent, is the difference between what we are doing and the genocide that so many other nations have done and been frowned upon for.

So many questions.

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Erbo
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Icon 1 posted February 28, 2006 11:48      Profile for Erbo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
All I know is, given what I know of their way of life, I'll take ours any day of the week and twice on Sundays. [Razz]

And many of them would, too. Take any one of those Iraqis and put them in front of a table. On the table, place a tall stack of $100 bills, keys to a brand-new Mercedes, a steak dinner with all the trimmings, and a green card. Most of them are gonna grab for the green card first...

In the long run, the only way to defeat the cancerous radical-Muslim ideology we face may be to help them absorb our culture. To decide this war, it may take, not guns, bombs, tanks, planes, and ships, but Barbie, Spiderman, GameCube, Playboy Channel, and the Internet.

And I pray that it works...because the alternatives are horrible to contemplate.

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Grummash

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Icon 1 posted February 28, 2006 12:22      Profile for Grummash     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Jace - for someone who clearly loves his country to ask such fundamental questions about that country's motives and values is really very encouraging. If I'm honest, it's not an attitude we in the UK expect from the USA, and particularly not from the US military. I know that you have to take orders when you are "at work", but I respect you for continuing to think for yourself about what your country is asking you to do.

Erbo - when you said "In the long run, the only way to defeat the cancerous radical-Muslim ideology we face may be to help them absorb our culture." I couldn't help thinking....

If the West generally (and the USA particularly) were to absorb a bit more of mainstream Islamic culture, there would be no need for the "cancerous radical-Muslim ideology" to which you refer.

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...and yet, across the gulf of space, minds immeasurably superior to ours regarded this earth with envious eyes...

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ChildeRoland
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Icon 1 posted February 28, 2006 14:31      Profile for ChildeRoland     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well said, Jace. And, thanks for serving our country and the Iraqi people.


Grummash, I really wish you would expand on what you mean by that statement.

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Childe Roland

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted February 28, 2006 15:28      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Grummash:
Erbo - when you said "In the long run, the only way to defeat the cancerous radical-Muslim ideology we face may be to help them absorb our culture." I couldn't help thinking....

If the West generally (and the USA particularly) were to absorb a bit more of mainstream Islamic culture, there would be no need for the "cancerous radical-Muslim ideology" to which you refer.

True, but from what I've learned from Saudi Arabian Muslims, to adopt Islamic practices is to deny personhood to women and children, and as a woman, I would not stand for that. Then, too, if we became Muslim, we'd have to deal with that lovely sura (al-Taubah 9:5, 123) that says Muslims should slay all unbelievers unless they repent. That's definitely not something I'd want to have on my head. [ohwell]

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted February 28, 2006 16:20      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ok, people, let's not misconstruct what Grummash said. He didn't say we should become muslims, but we should open to their culture; the same way that Jace didn't say those islamic women didn't turn christians.

Openness to other culture doesn't mean one has to become part of that culture, not even agree with that culture. Rather, it means to be able to approach it with an open mind and try to understand where those people come from. No need to forbid your identity; instead, take the best they can bring to you and integrate it in your life. Don't agree with how they treat the women and children? Leave that aside. Like their music? Get some on your iPod. Easy.

I had the opportunity to talk with a girl of berberic ascent (IIRC), and she told me that women in her country, before French invasion, used to integrate mystical and magical symbols in their house's mosaics, thus allegedly empowering themselves and protecting their families. Whether I agree or not to this part of their culture has no impact on the interest it has from a cultural point of view.

So let's keep xenophobia at bay, and explore the world and its many cultures as a big book written over centuries and millenia by the human race.

Jace, as you can guess, you will find in me an avid reader of any anecdotes you can recall (and retell, of course).

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Eppur, si muove!

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Icon 1 posted February 28, 2006 16:35      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I would definitely hate to see the rest of the world develop into clones of US culture. It would be a shame to see a way of life destroyed by our interference in Iraq.

On the other hand, the collision of their culture with ours may be our best chance for something less hostile to the US to develop. Cultures must evolve over time, often in response to close contact with other cultures.

I definitely can see why would would have those questions, Jace. It's really difficult to be sure what is happening to their culture, and whether it's a good thing or bad.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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YaYawoman

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Icon 1 posted February 28, 2006 17:58      Profile for YaYawoman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi. Again,welcome home.

I would like to say a few things regarding the last paragraph of your post wondering about the differences, if any, between the good old genocidal past and the spread of democracy in the present.

The way I look at it is that genocide was a tool to destroy, obliterate, and erase cultures and peoples. Crush the heart and spirit and slide on in to replace them. Spreading democracy in contrast, seems to be a more noble goal. Increas the people living under the rule of law, with a voice in the system and the rights that we in the west sometimes take for granted.

It is a noble goal, but doomed I believe. "Spreading democracy" sounds like we are trying to spread a cold, or std. I believe it is doomed because democracy and all the rights and responsibilities that go with it cannot be "spread". The countries and cultures in turmoil must in the end come to it on their own,if at all, for democracy to be able to function for all. Otherwise it is just another outsider-foisted governing theory that will fall under its own weight when the "spreader" leaves.

Of course, I could be completely wrong. That is the joy and wonder of opinions. [Smile]

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Jace Raven

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Icon 1 posted February 28, 2006 18:28      Profile for Jace Raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The only thing I dont like about the spread of democracy is it isn't just a spread of a political system anymore. It is the spread of a western society, the spread of a culture. We think that we are right and the way we live is the right way.

Dont get me wrong, I am very much against the use of terror to impress a society into a sort of obedience in order to call a ruler or power. However, when it comes to the spread of a democracy over a muslim nation (and not all of the muslim nation is radical) means that most of their traditions that are fundamental to their religion will contradict our work, in result, if we suceed, will abolish the basis of the muslim society and in my opinion will cause more resistance.

It isn't as easy as abolishing the radicalists and insurgents because as more and more of the nations shys away from the muslim culture more and more muslims will become radicalist in an attempt to preserve their way of life.

It's a viscious circle and seems to almost genocidic in nature.

Dont know if this makes any sense but I hope I portrayed my point effectively

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YaYawoman

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Icon 1 posted February 28, 2006 19:16      Profile for YaYawoman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No you have made your point well. I even agree with part of it.

Have you ever read Thomas Friedman? He wrote the Lexus and the Olive Tree, and The World is Flat.
He addressed some of those concerns, but more towards the business and capitalist and globalization take on the question. He made some very good points that I am going to (poorly) paraphrase.

In the new global economy the world is becoming divided not only into the haves and have-nots, but the plugged-in and the un-plugged. Fundamentalism, of any stripe, creed or religion, is a barrier.

It is not so much the "spread of democracy" that is challenging their beliefs, but the new interconnectedness of the world. To engage in the economy,education and general pulse you must be engaged, able to be flexible, able to embrace technology and science. These things bring newness, challenges, questions and instabilities. Sometimes faced with questions and challenges people turn away and grasp their religion, beliefs and cultures even more tightly to their chests (so to speak)and become even more rigid, more strident. I think the "spread of democracy" is just a pointer for the forces bubbling underneath.

Before anyone here gets their BVD's wadded and wedged I remind everyone to just pack a bowl, crack a beer and relax. I am not picking only on the muslim religion, I am not even picking only on religion itself. I am pointing my finger at fundamentalism, secular and religious, as a trigger and aggravator of intolerance, violence,backwardness, bitterness and fear. I probably rambled sorry and i dont even know if i made a logical point, but I am blaming being in the middle of my nightshift work week. [Big Grin]

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magefile
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Icon 1 posted February 28, 2006 19:19      Profile for magefile     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Grummash:
Erbo - when you said "In the long run, the only way to defeat the cancerous radical-Muslim ideology we face may be to help them absorb our culture." I couldn't help thinking....

If the West generally (and the USA particularly) were to absorb a bit more of mainstream Islamic culture, there would be no need for the "cancerous radical-Muslim ideology" to which you refer.

True, but from what I've learned from Saudi Arabian Muslims, to adopt Islamic practices is to deny personhood to women and children, and as a woman, I would not stand for that. Then, too, if we became Muslim, we'd have to deal with that lovely sura (al-Taubah 9:5, 123) that says Muslims should slay all unbelievers unless they repent. That's definitely not something I'd want to have on my head. [ohwell]
A lot of that (women and children) is cultural, not religious (i.e., Arab culture, not Islamic religion), and has parallels in European culture.

As far as 'suras', how about these:
He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers ... thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

(Exodus 22:20, Leviticus 24:16, Deuteronomy 13:6-10, 17:2-?).

Or if you're in a New Testament mood, how 'bout:

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

(John 15:6, Matthew 10:21, 10:34, 2 Corinthians 6:14)

I'm sorry ... did you mean the Quran?

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Geordie

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Icon 1 posted February 28, 2006 19:38      Profile for Geordie     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
...from what I've learned from Saudi Arabian Muslims, to adopt Islamic practices is to deny personhood to women and children, and as a woman, I would not stand for that.

Yeah the Saudi's seem to forget that the prophet's first wife Khadija was a successful trader who hired Muhammad to accompany a caravan for her. After another trip or two she proposed to this man 15 years her junior. Then after they were married she supported him as he responded to the call of the lord. Islam like most religions was born in a misogynistic time and accumulated a lot of bad beliefs but those who seek to live like the prophet Muhammad would do well to remember how he lived his life.

quote:
Then, too, if we became Muslim, we'd have to deal with that lovely sura (al-Taubah 9:5, 123) that says Muslims should slay all unbelievers unless they repent. That's definitely not something I'd want to have on my head. [ohwell]
That verse is as often misunderstood as Deut. 13:6-9. Suffice it to say that most of the Judeo-Christian derived literature is pretty intolerant of unbelievers and polytheists.

The fundamentals of compassion, love, peace, justice, etc. always seem to be forgotten no matter who is doing the religious interpreting ::sigh:: That is why I gave up on organized religion. As far as I am concerned no truer words were ever spoken than those from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure: "Be excellent to each other. "

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Geordie

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted February 28, 2006 20:04      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by magefile:
:snip:

I'm sorry ... did you mean the Quran?

[Applause] [Applause] [Applause] [Applause] [Applause]
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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted February 28, 2006 20:15      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Jace, you're making your point very well, you're asking some very hard and very good questions that probably should have been asked by other people years ago, and it's well worth thinking about. I've never seen or heard this question raised before and I must ponder some more before I answer.

However, I will say this: the big difference between genocide and our presence in Iraq is we are not trying to wipe the Iraqi people off the map. We're trying to remove the threat we feel that their culture presented us by making them more like us (which is weird because Iraq was a secular country before our invasion) but we aren't trying to kill all the Arabs. That doesn't answer your more fundamental questions about the nature of our actions in the Mideast though.

In the meantime, while I ponder, I'll be sitting over with Stereo waiting to hear some more anecdotes about Iraqi culture. If you don't mind sharing that is. [Smile]

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
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Jace Raven

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Icon 1 posted February 28, 2006 21:30      Profile for Jace Raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
As requested:

Dont ever touch an Iraqi's left hand. They use it to whipe their ass.

Which leads me to this:
Their sewage is really weird. If they have running water, toilets usually go to in ground (open) septic tanks that drain out to a small drain that usually goes down hill and most of the time will just pile up in the "ghetto's" of the cities or right outside the cities.

It gets really stinky sometimes especailly on really hot or humid days.

More civilized Middle-eastern countries use B'days (i can't spell mind you) and most of the time they are nozzle type. The nozzle is usually covered in shit.

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted February 28, 2006 21:41      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
bidet

I guess if you don't have access to toilet paper, this is a good alternative, but still, I wonder how hygienic they are in general?

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ChildeRoland
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Icon 1 posted February 28, 2006 22:01      Profile for ChildeRoland     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"He didn't say we should become muslims, but we should open to their culture"


Actually, he said we should absorb some of their culture. There is a difference between that and being open.

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Grummash

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Icon 1 posted February 28, 2006 22:20      Profile for Grummash     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
As requested by ChildeRoland, I'll expand a little on my statement about absorbing Islamic culture.

Let's assume that in the West generally (as is the case in the UK) most people's early education will include some study of music and literature.

Hands up all those whose music classes included Qawaali amongst the Verdi and Beethoven? Nope, mine neither. And who was offered the chance to learn the Oud or the Duduk instead of the piano? Not many I'd guess.

And I would suggest that literature classes would be the same: Shakespeare and Walt Whitman get a look in, but not the poet Rumi.

Go to your nearest High Street bookstore and see if there are any translations of Rumi outside of the beardy-wierdy, I talk to angels, New-Age section. I doubt it.

And now a question for those GCers in long-term relationships: Would you say that the more you understand someone, the less you feel the need to change them?

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Icon 1 posted February 28, 2006 23:03      Profile for maia     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Grummash:

And now a question for those GCers in long-term relationships: Would you say that the more you understand someone, the less you feel the need to change them?

I would, and I think this is a great parallel. Respecting differences and treating others as we want to be treated adds strength to any relationship.

I'm not really sure what else I can add to this discussion. I do think that a major problem in many cultures (American especially) is ignorance and close-mindedness. The more we can learn about other cultures, people, etc., the more we can put things in perspective and move toward the ultimate goal of living in peace.

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Icon 1 posted February 28, 2006 23:44      Profile for Erbo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Grummash:
If the West generally (and the USA particularly) were to absorb a bit more of mainstream Islamic culture, there would be no need for the "cancerous radical-Muslim ideology" to which you refer.

Which part? The part where women get draped in burqas and can't work or go to school? The part where anyone who disagrees with you is an "infidel" and deserves death or enslavement? The part where priceless cultural relics get blown up because graven images of human faces are forbidden? The part where the local imam Knows All, and questioning him automatically marks you as a heretic, deserving of death?

Sorry, Grummash, but "mainstream Islamic culture" has nothing, nothing that we need. By the 20th Century, we had already moved far beyond all of it. We started moving beyond it as far back as the Renaissance. It's the Muslims who need to catch up.
quote:
Originally posted by Jace Raven:
The only thing I dont like about the spread of democracy is it isn't just a spread of a political system anymore. It is the spread of a western society, the spread of a culture. We think that we are right and the way we live is the right way.

Jace, I'm not saying the way we, here, in the U.S. of A., live right at this minute is perfect. I am saying it's better than the way the Iraqis have been living, and that's Good Enough for the moment. In time, perhaps we'll move on to something better...but we're not going to do it by dragging ourselves back down to that level. Unfortunately, that's exactly what the radical Muslims would like to see happen to us.

Now, YaYaWoman, you make an important point, which I would like to address by pointing you to this essay by Ralph Peters, printed in Parameters, the U.S. Army War College quarterly. In it, Peters posits that there are seven factors that contribute to a nation's or civilization's failure to progress, or even to maintain its power in the world:
  • Restrictions on the free flow of information
  • The subjugation of women
  • Inability to accept responsibility for individual or collective failure
  • The extended family or clan as the basic unit of social organization
  • Domination by a restrictive religion
  • A low valuation of education
  • Low prestige assigned to work
None of these factors are specific to Islam; some non-Islamic nations possess them, too, such as China and many African and Latin American nations. Yet Islamic nations, those with a predominance of Muslims in their population and with governments partly or completely based on Muslim principles, exhibit many of these factors, possibly all of them. You've been describing one of these factors, perhaps the most important: restrictions on the free flow of information. To quote Peters:
quote:
If you are looking for an easy war, fight an information-controlling state. If you are looking for a difficult investment, invest in an information-controlling state. If you are hunting a difficult conflict, enter the civil strife that arises after the collapse of an information-controlling state. If you are looking for a good investment, find an emerging or "redeemed" state unafraid of science, hard numbers, and education.
I hope that Iraq will become one of those states "unafraid of science, hard numbers, and education." It's taking steps along those lines, but it does have a long way to go.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 28, 2006 23:52      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
quote:
Originally posted by Grummash:
If the West generally (and the USA particularly) were to absorb a bit more of mainstream Islamic culture, there would be no need for the "cancerous radical-Muslim ideology" to which you refer.

Which part? The part where women get draped in burqas and can't work or go to school? The part where anyone who disagrees with you is an "infidel" and deserves death or enslavement? The part where priceless cultural relics get blown up because graven images of human faces are forbidden? The part where the local imam Knows All, and questioning him automatically marks you as a heretic, deserving of death?

Sorry, Grummash, but "mainstream Islamic culture" has nothing, nothing that we need. By the 20th Century, we had already moved far beyond all of it. We started moving beyond it as far back as the Renaissance. It's the Muslims who need to catch up.

As someone who has travelled in muslim countries, I can assure you that the travesty you describe above has nothing to do with "mainstream Islamic culture".

I hate to shatter your propaganda-induced paranoia, but in my travels I found your typical muslim to be far friendlier, more polite, and more honest than J Random Christian. The only cities in Africa where I'd happily walk the streets at night were in muslim areas, now there's a lesson the USA (and many other western nations) could learn from Islam.

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Icon 1 posted March 01, 2006 06:23      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
Which part? The part where women get draped in burqas and can't work or go to school?

As opposed to all those young girls in our civilisation that're considered ugly or unsexy if they aren't a size double-0, or wearing skimpy clothing?

quote:
The part where anyone who disagrees with you is an "infidel" and deserves death or enslavement?
The United States is a nation 'under God'. I refer you to maia's previous post as a rebuttal for that.

quote:
The part where priceless cultural relics get blown up because graven images of human faces are forbidden?
As opposed to all of the people who walk free from crimes they've committed because they have money?

quote:
The part where the local imam Knows All, and questioning him automatically marks you as a heretic, deserving of death?
Coming from a country where being born gay makes you a 'heathen' because it's somehow a lifestyle you've chosen?

quote:
Sorry, Grummash, but "mainstream Islamic culture" has nothing, nothing that we need. By the 20th Century, we had already moved far beyond all of it. We started moving beyond it as far back as the Renaissance. It's the Muslims who need to catch up.

You're right. They need things that we as a western civilisation have. Because we're so much better than them:
  • fear mongering by the media
  • corporate thieves
  • politicians and businessmen who're apparently above the law
  • walmart

You're not even talking about muslim 'culture'. Every muslim person I've ever met is a decent, hard-working, well-spoken, peaceful human being. You're talking about muslim radicals. The United states is full of radicals.

You don't like your country being portrayed by these few, do you?

I suggest you refrain from doing the same.

Posts: 4897 | From: Cambridge, ON, Canada | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jace Raven

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Icon 1 posted March 01, 2006 07:10      Profile for Jace Raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
Jace, I'm not saying the way we, here, in the U.S. of A., live right at this minute is perfect. I am saying it's better than the way the Iraqis have been living, and that's Good Enough for the moment. In time, perhaps we'll move on to something better...but we're not going to do it by dragging ourselves back down to that level. Unfortunately, that's exactly what the radical Muslims would like to see happen to us.

It isn't just a political system, it is their religion. Where will it stop. Will we eventually stop them from traveling to Hajj because we fear the mass gathering of muslims or because we fear the motivation and dedication to their "cause" and would prefer to stop a threat before it begins.

Personally I am at odds with myself on this one because I believe very much in what we are doing but I do think that some of our methods are off.

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted March 01, 2006 07:35      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ChildeRoland:
"He didn't say we should become muslims, but we should open to their culture"


Actually, he said we should absorb some of their culture. There is a difference between that and being open.

Much less different than between absorbing some of their culture and absorbing all of it.

When one selects a part of a culture one disagree with, and uses it to cast aside all of that culture, that's over-generalisation, and a discourse flaw. I only used causality (one needs to be open to something in order to absorb part of it), and that's totally acceptable in logical discourse. I stand by my point.

So allow me an analogy for the case at hand. Say you swear by hard rock and nothing else. But you have a friend who invite you to a ska concert. If you accept to go to the concert with her, you may find that ska isn't so bad, and over time, you may add some ska influence to your musical list. It doesn't mean you have to throw away all your hard rock CDs and have nothing else than ska, but rather that you may discover a few songs and artists that talks to you enough for you to spend some money on them.

--------------------
Eppur, si muove!

Galileo Galilei

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Erbo
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Icon 1 posted March 01, 2006 09:45      Profile for Erbo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jace Raven:
It isn't just a political system, it is their religion. Where will it stop. Will we eventually stop them from traveling to Hajj because we fear the mass gathering of muslims or because we fear the motivation and dedication to their "cause" and would prefer to stop a threat before it begins.

You know, Jace, that's really the thing. If Muslims around the world, up to and including the political and religious leaders of nations like Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc., were to declare that they had renounced all use of violence in the name of religion, that they renounced everything they had previously said about infidels and dhimmis and jihad and all the rest, and were able to demonstrate conclusively, through their actions, that they had so renounced this, I would have absolutely no problem with them. That's right. None. Zero. Nada. (Well, I might still deplore their treatment of women...)

But they can't make it believable to me, because I know that their own doctrines not only allow them, but encourage them to deceive me, and ensure that they will all be solidly lined up against me, no matter what. That's not my doing; it's all theirs, in doctrines that were codified centuries before I was born. Failure to recognize this fact is one of our major weaknesses in the war we're fighting.

Don't take my word for it: look at what some people who left Islam had to say on the subject. For more on honesty and lack thereof in Islam, see this article, which points out the exact justification in the Qu'ran for the doctrine of taqiyya...and also points out that the "extremists" have much more justification for their point of view in the Muslim religious texts than the "moderates" do.

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See more From The Erbo Files: www.erbosoft.com/blog/

Posts: 1480 | From: Denver, CO, US | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged


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