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Author Topic: Where does the hostility come from?
CloneArmyCommander
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Icon 4 posted January 31, 2006 08:30      Profile for CloneArmyCommander     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I've been following the topics posted by bambi_eyes, and I started thinking about something.

It's obvious that geeks have been put through quite a bit, and there are some bitter view of the whole "us" and "them" thing.

I'd be curious to know where all of the hostility comes from. Here's your chance to vent. . . and possibly let go of a few things (or at least to begin to).

What's your story? What happened to you that made you start separating the "us" and the "them" and hold bitter opinions of "them"?

Also, please don't make posts about bambi's. I want to go beyond that. . . everything's been said and done about it, and it's time to get past it.

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Grey_girl

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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2006 08:51      Profile for Grey_girl     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I am tempted to respond to "Commander Cody" or "Alpha" or "Jangotat"... hehehehe. I'm sure CloneArmyCommander gets the references (names given to Clone Army Commanders in various SW stuff for those who may not be up on the SW comics, etc.).

I don't think it's an "us" vs. "them" as much as people just want to be treated with a little courtesy. If you treat someone with respect, there is no "us" or "them." I have no story to share other than that, because I generally don't hold hostility toward a "them." It's the intolerance and lack of respect that causes a delineation of an "us" and "them" I'm hostile toward.

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2006 09:04      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well, this is an interesting subject. I've always tried to take on the role of, "be a complete and utter geek, but don't carry the stereotypical social ineptitude that goes with it."

You see, now, it's a lot more common to meet complete and utter geeks who are also well-dressed, well-spoken, clean-cut, sociable people.

Gone are the days where geeks sat in their basement, had big beards, rarely showered, smelled funny, couldn't hold a conversation for more than 10 minutes, etc.

Perhaps those days never existed, but to me, that's always been the geek stereotype that's breaking day by day.

Ever since I accepted the fact that I was a complete and utter geek (I was writing software on a commodore 64 when I was 8 years old or so), I also made a point to try and not carry the negative stigma that went with it.

For the most part, I've succeeded. To paraphrase one of my last bosses:

"you're a weird geek. you're better than any other programmer or network guy we've ever had before, but you're also capable of holding real interesting conversation, and you shower daily!"

I guess the guys before me didn't fit that description.

Anyway, the point I'm making is that while I am a geek, and always have been, I've tried my best to not be or have any of the stereotypical traits. As such, I wasn't picked on in highschool. I've noticed, however, that my highschool was different from others. It seems the people at my highschool were above that childishness, and had already given up on the group segregation and 'popular groups', etc.

Anyway, my hostility towards the general public comes from the sheer volume of stupidity I see out there, and the fact that it continues to proliferate.

- OK, some people can't spell, but why are there people who can't spell writing newspaper articles and designing giant billboards?
- Why are people continuing to listen to and give people like Christina Aguilera, Britney Spears, and Paris Hilton their attention and money?
- Why do I pay nearly two hundred dollars a month for car insurance when there are people who are BLATANTLY worse drivers than me (and no, I'm talking about people I know, not you, -ct-.. [Wink] ) are paying $50? Like seniors who get senior discounts and pay almost nothing for insurance and cause more accidents than I ever could.

I could go on, but you get the point.

Even as such, I'm generally a very easy person to get along with, I just have a short fuse for things that don't make any sense, and people who don't make any sense.

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CloneArmyCommander
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2006 09:09      Profile for CloneArmyCommander     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Grey_girl:
I am tempted to respond to "Commander Cody" or "Alpha" or "Jangotat"... hehehehe. I'm sure CloneArmyCommander gets the references (names given to Clone Army Commanders in various SW stuff for those who may not be up on the SW comics, etc.).

I don't think it's an "us" vs. "them" as much as people just want to be treated with a little courtesy. If you treat someone with respect, there is no "us" or "them." I have no story to share other than that, because I generally don't hold hostility toward a "them." It's the intolerance and lack of respect that causes a delineation of an "us" and "them" I'm hostile toward.

Hehehehe [Big Grin] . Clone Commander Cody [Big Grin] . You are the first person to make that connection [Big Grin] . It was shortly after seeing Attack of the Clones that I started using "CloneArmyCommander" [Big Grin] .

I can certainly see things from that point of view, though. A lot of people misunderstand what being a geek is, and it seems to cause some disrespect towards us, because they hold the opinion that we feel superior.

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CloneArmyCommander
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2006 09:19      Profile for CloneArmyCommander     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by drunkennewfiemidget:
Even as such, I'm generally a very easy person to get along with, I just have a short fuse for things that don't make any sense, and people who don't make any sense.

That's why I was trying to figure out what was going in, since people seem to be on the edge lately (just little things about responses to new posters). You were the first person to make me feel welcome on the board, and for a long time the only person who responded to my first topic post.
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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2006 09:23      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
CAC: first, I feel the need to thank you. Crazy as it may sound, it's this very kind of self-questionning that makes me like this place. I feel we, as individual and as a group, are able to put our acts within perspective and see if we can improve. And there's nothing I like more than trying to be better than I am now; being able to point at our flaws is the first step toward correcting them.

Now, about your question. I believe the answer is twofold. Grey_girl pretty much explained [edited!] the "respect me, I'll respect you; trash me, I'll trash you" side.

The other one is the most basic instinct of all social animals: herding. Using "We" is an intrinsic definition of who we are. Defining the group is defining the individuals of the group. When an individual not part of the group closes in, one judge the newcomer on whether s/he belongs/can become part of the group.

Of course, one belongs to different groups, and will judge the new one depending on the group it tries to come in. I know there are people I accept pretty well under some circumstances I wouldn't under others. And I know it's time for me to leave a groups when its definition clashes with mine.

And then, "us" and "them" is defined by the group. Be part of the group, or a possible addition, and you're part of "us." Meet the group in a confrontational or disparaging way, and you're part of "them."

In that light, your question comes down to "who do we want to be?" My idealistic side says we should all be able to get along, my realistic side says this is not gonna happen ever, because even if I/we grow enough to accept everyone without any kind of judgemental bias, some will still see "us" as a "them" to them. And we cannot integrate someone who doesn't want to belong. I could treat them nicer, maybe, but we shouldn't change the definition of the group to accomodate them; I won't change who I am so I don't hurt anyone ever.

As for my story [Wink] : I was pretty impervious to social pressure as a kid - or at least, the one from outside my family. I was part of my family, and I did much to conform to their views (or what I thought their view was). I didn't need to fit anywhere else. Some people tried to hurt me (and managed to do so, up to some point). I lived through betrayal, just as much as I've met unexptected friendships. It is much later that I started understanding my individuality and that there were groups I would fit in, and others I didn't even care. And very recently that I finaly accepted that I couldn't please everyone, and shouldn't take rejection too hard. I still have a lot of work to do, but I haven't given up yet.

Err... is all that making any sense?

--------------------
Eppur, si muove!

Galileo Galilei

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CloneArmyCommander
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2006 09:42      Profile for CloneArmyCommander     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:
CAC: first, I feel the need to thank you. Crazy as it may sound, it's this very kind of self-questionning that makes me like this place. I feel we, as individual and as a group, are able to put our acts within perspective and see if we can improve. And there's nothing I like more than trying to be better than I am now; being able to point at our flaws is the first step toward correcting them.

....

Err... is all that making any sense?

[Happytears] This forum never stops amazing me. It's that ability to stop for a moment, put things asided, and really examine things that I like about this place.

And everything made perfect sense.

The worst thing that happened to me (no sad stories, I had it it easier than most [Big Grin] ) is I was picked on a lot in middle school, but I'm past it [Big Grin] , but that's what made me think the way I do.

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2006 09:49      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by drunkennewfiemidget:
Gone are the days where geeks sat in their basement, had big beards, rarely showered, smelled funny, couldn't hold a conversation for more than 10 minutes, etc.

Oh yeah? According to whom?  -

Back to the topic at hand:

The clan mentality which leads humans to an "us versus them" activity and language seems to be instinctive and as old as humanity itself. The urge to act upon the instinct can be overcome; often it requires conscious effort to do so and a well-informed and educated mind is usually able to do so quite easily.

More basically, most humans show forth and express the need to belong and, once having attained that goal, many resort to exclusivity as a protective device.

The above comments are distilled from a conglomeration of past and present writings on the topics of nuturing, parenting, OCD and related topics. They are not necessarily exhaustive and do not apply to all persons. In my own experience though, they are valid enough to use as guide points in dealing with others, especially until we get to know each other well enough to identify genuinely individual traits and behaviors.

FWIW

gg [Wink]

--------------------
I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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TheGirlWonder
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2006 09:54      Profile for TheGirlWonder         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The hostility comes from disliking anyone that's the least bit different from yourself. It's not anywhere near the extent of racial or religious hostility, but it's along the same basic lines.

The girls I shared a tutor with when I was 14-15 hated me at first just because I am book-smart. I can look at an equation and figure it out in no time, or take a book and write a great report over it. Same principle between geeks and non-geeks.

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CloneArmyCommander
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2006 09:58      Profile for CloneArmyCommander     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheGirlWonder:
The hostility comes from disliking anyone that's the least bit different from yourself. It's not anywhere near the extent of racial or religious hostility, but it's along the same basic lines.

The girls I shared a tutor with when I was 14-15 hated me at first just because I am book-smart. I can look at an equation and figure it out in no time, or take a book and write a great report over it. Same principle between geeks and non-geeks.

Hehehe [Big Grin] . . . How about the people who want to pick at you, but when test time comes around, they want your help [Big Grin] .

Hmmmm. . . maybe some of this stuff stems from fear. A fear of those who seem "better" in some way, an ego thing. I don't understand it, to be honest. There are thing's I'll never be good at, like sports.

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Scubbo
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2006 10:03      Profile for Scubbo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CloneArmyCommander:
I can certainly see things from that point of view, though. A lot of people misunderstand what being a geek is, and it seems to cause some disrespect towards us, because they hold the opinion that we feel superior.

This is certainly the opinion that I've experienced among non-geeks. Personally my attitude for life is "enjoy the geeky things, but don't share them with non-geeks just like they wouldn't expect you to share in their macho pastimes". Everyone's naturally insecure about things that they don't understand or aren't good at. I believe that the hostility towards geeks is just in response to the realisation that "that guy is WAY out of my league at something", in much the same way that (in my experience anyway) geeks feel nervous around sport jocks.

--------------------
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
When in doubt; Use the Source, Luke.

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CloneArmyCommander
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2006 10:06      Profile for CloneArmyCommander     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Scubbo:
quote:
Originally posted by CloneArmyCommander:
I can certainly see things from that point of view, though. A lot of people misunderstand what being a geek is, and it seems to cause some disrespect towards us, because they hold the opinion that we feel superior.

This is certainly the opinion that I've experienced among non-geeks. Personally my attitude for life is "enjoy the geeky things, but don't share them with non-geeks just like they wouldn't expect you to share in their macho pastimes". Everyone's naturally insecure about things that they don't understand or aren't good at. I believe that the hostility towards geeks is just in response to the realisation that "that guy is WAY out of my league at something", in much the same way that (in my experience anyway) geeks feel nervous around sport jocks.
All too true [Razz] . I feel out of place if you stick me in a room with a jock.
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TheGirlWonder
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2006 10:20      Profile for TheGirlWonder         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CloneArmyCommander:
quote:
Originally posted by TheGirlWonder:
The hostility comes from disliking anyone that's the least bit different from yourself. It's not anywhere near the extent of racial or religious hostility, but it's along the same basic lines.

The girls I shared a tutor with when I was 14-15 hated me at first just because I am book-smart. I can look at an equation and figure it out in no time, or take a book and write a great report over it. Same principle between geeks and non-geeks.

Hehehe [Big Grin] . . . How about the people who want to pick at you, but when test time comes around, they want your help [Big Grin] .

Hmmmm. . . maybe some of this stuff stems from fear. A fear of those who seem "better" in some way, an ego thing. I don't understand it, to be honest. There are thing's I'll never be good at, like sports.

Believe me, I've been there too. I got countless phone calls asking for homework help. I was asked countless times if I would lend out my notes and homework. I helped, because I am a (mostly) nice person, but I got pretty tired of it by the time I left there.
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Grey_girl

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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2006 10:44      Profile for Grey_girl     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:

Now, about your question. I believe the answer is twofold. Grey_girl pretty much explain the "respect me, I'll respect you; trash me, I'll trash you" side.

Stereo, I'm not sure what you want me to explain. I'm confused by your reply. I never said or implied "respect me, I'll respect you; trash me, I'll trash you." That was not my point. What I was saying is that I don't see people, groups, individuals... what have you, as an "us" vs. "them" type of situation. I don't feel any hostility toward any group other than people who treat others with a lack of respect and with intolerance. I was raised to hate bigotry, prejudice, etc., and to believe it wrong on every level. That's what I was getting at.
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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2006 11:24      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Grey_girl:
quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:

Now, about your question. I believe the answer is twofold. Grey_girl pretty much explain the "respect me, I'll respect you; trash me, I'll trash you" side.

Stereo, I'm not sure what you want me to explain. I'm confused by your reply. I never said or implied "respect me, I'll respect you; trash me, I'll trash you." That was not my point. What I was saying is that I don't see people, groups, individuals... what have you, as an "us" vs. "them" type of situation. I don't feel any hostility toward any group other than people who treat others with a lack of respect and with intolerance. I was raised to hate bigotry, prejudice, etc., and to believe it wrong on every level. That's what I was getting at.
Then maybe I've seen too far in that
quote:
If you treat someone with respect, there is no "us" or "them."
and
quote:
It's the intolerance and lack of respect that causes a delineation of an "us" and "them" (...)
I totally rephrased what I thought you said at its most basic level. If that's not what you meant, sorry. (BTW, I didn't meant that the "respect vs. trash" is how you react, only that your post covered the point.)

--------------------
Eppur, si muove!

Galileo Galilei

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2006 11:25      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It seems that the "ed" was left off of the word "explain" in Stereo's post, G_g.

Just tryin' to help. [Big Grin] gg

--------------------
I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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Stereo

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Icon 11 posted January 31, 2006 11:37      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by garlicguy:
It seems that the "ed" was left off of the word "explain" in Stereo's post, G_g.

Just tryin' to help. [Big Grin] gg

Did I... No! [blush] [Embarrassed] [blush] [Embarrassed] [blush]

(Of course you're right, Oh great Garlic one! I didn't notice, and now I see how it all changes the meaning!)

--------------------
Eppur, si muove!

Galileo Galilei

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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2006 14:29      Profile for Demosthenes     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Anger is a wall that I put up to protect myself.

I shot for stoicism when I was younger, but I'm too passionate and hot-tempered to keep the Vulcan face up, so I started looking harder at the world around me and feeling that hot little ball of iron in my belly. Injustices on both a global and personal scale, mass apathy and hatred, and stupidity ruling the earth? It doesn't help that I was an extremely lonely kid during my school years. How d'you deal with that? Me, I matched it and I got hostile.

It's crashed-and-burned a few friendships and it's definitely landed me in trouble a few times, but my anger is my gift. It keeps me fit, because the best way to burn off my anger is to hop on my bicycle and hurl insults at cabbies, or take up the freeweights. It keeps me sharp; I will never be gullible. It keeps my integrity and my pride in one piece; I will never cave in to something I don't want to do.

Refer to Pink Floyd for my longstanding motto: Perfect isolation.

That is why I'm so pissed-off.

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Alan!
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holy crap.

where's angryjungman?

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Alan!

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fly
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Icon 1 posted February 09, 2006 19:59      Profile for fly     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CloneArmyCommander:
I've been following the topics posted by bambi_eyes, and I started thinking about something.

It's obvious that geeks have been put through quite a bit, and there are some bitter view of the whole "us" and "them" thing.

I'd be curious to know where all of the hostility comes from. Here's your chance to vent. . . and possibly let go of a few things (or at least to begin to).

What's your story? What happened to you that made you start separating the "us" and the "them" and hold bitter opinions of "them"?

Also, please don't make posts about bambi's. I want to go beyond that. . . everything's been said and done about it, and it's time to get past it.

IG-no-rance.

--------------------
life is the art of dying.

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fly
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Icon 1 posted February 09, 2006 20:03      Profile for fly     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CloneArmyCommander:
I've been following the topics posted by bambi_eyes, and I started thinking about something.

It's obvious that geeks have been put through quite a bit, and there are some bitter view of the whole "us" and "them" thing.

I'd be curious to know where all of the hostility comes from. Here's your chance to vent. . . and possibly let go of a few things (or at least to begin to).

What's your story? What happened to you that made you start separating the "us" and the "them" and hold bitter opinions of "them"?

Also, please don't make posts about bambi's. I want to go beyond that. . . everything's been said and done about it, and it's time to get past it.

A BIG drak black hole where some one thought it all had to start with a big bang.

--------------------
life is the art of dying.

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fly
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Icon 1 posted February 09, 2006 20:08      Profile for fly     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CloneArmyCommander:
I've been following the topics posted by bambi_eyes, and I started thinking about something.

It's obvious that geeks have been put through quite a bit, and there are some bitter view of the whole "us" and "them" thing.

I'd be curious to know where all of the hostility comes from. Here's your chance to vent. . . and possibly let go of a few things (or at least to begin to).

What's your story? What happened to you that made you start separating the "us" and the "them" and hold bitter opinions of "them"?

Also, please don't make posts about bambi's. I want to go beyond that. . . everything's been said and done about it, and it's time to get past it.

Well there where two Rabbis walking along, one said he study Law, the other dox said he study religion, and they both got thier ass kick.

--------------------
life is the art of dying.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted February 09, 2006 22:26      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hostility? I don't know. I'm not all that hostile. WHen I see something that's grossly unfair my hackles go up, but I'm not one of the ones that jumps on n00bs at the first post. I've been dealt my share of cruelty in the past. All us geeks have. But that was the past, this is the present, and I don't have the right to treat people bad just because I myself was treated bad.

quote:
Originally posted by Demosthenes:
Anger is a wall that I put up to protect myself.

I shot for stoicism when I was younger, but I'm too passionate and hot-tempered to keep the Vulcan face up, so I started looking harder at the world around me and feeling that hot little ball of iron in my belly. Injustices on both a global and personal scale, mass apathy and hatred, and stupidity ruling the earth? It doesn't help that I was an extremely lonely kid during my school years. How d'you deal with that? Me, I matched it and I got hostile.

The stoicism worked for me. It's in my nature to burn cold. If they don't know you care they can't mock you. If you show no weakness they let you be, and if you draw no attention you don't even have to worry about showing weakness. I wish I could say I have a long fuse and a huge bang at the end, but the truth is what I call an emotional explosion barely registers with anyone who doesn't know me really well. I wrapped myself up in ice and silence and the barrier comes up and down at my will alone. A lot of people feel like I know them better than they know me, and that is the reason why. Even my family gets the freeze - my reticence is a running joke with them. There is one exception that proves the rule: my current bf broke right through, and I'm still a little bit pissed at both of us about that.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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