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Author Topic: Super RANT
TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted January 28, 2006 13:14      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
_____How do I even start this rant, Some of you may know that I am a member of an emergency response team. Last Summer, July one to be exact there was a state wide Amber alert for a runaway child, a seven year old boy that had fled his foster parents home. The out pouring of help was enormous at any one time there was up to five hundred people out in the bush looking for this child. The Coast guard sent three choppers and night vision equipment, The Michigan Air Guard sent similar equipment and the local News TV Stations sent their birds to help in the search for this lost boy.

_____Day one I go with my own counties search and rescue team we scoured about two miles of streams and swamps. Ingham County is quite wet.

_____Day three I go over on my own and I am assigned to a mounted posse we combed about three miles of I-96 right of way Ditches and Culverts and drain tiles any place a little boy could crawl in.

_____Day five I go over again and this time I am with a bunch of returning Mich. Nat. Guard members fresh from Iraq this time we comb about three miles of RR right of way.
All of this is in pretty unforgiving terrain in the heat of July.

_____Day seven I am again in the woods, this time I am in the shade still no luck finding the little guy, there are reports that they thought he was seen back in my home county, pack up and rejoin the home team no luck.

_____After fourteen days the Sheriff calls off the ground search, they are now looking real close at the foster parents.

_____Six months and twenty six days later the father leads the deputy to the grave that he and his wife buried the little guy in.

_____The thing that riles me the most is that while we were out busting our butts looking for their foster child they knew where he was.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted January 28, 2006 17:14      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
They should all have to personally pay every volunteer, news company, chopper operator, etc, for their time, use of their equipment, consumables, etc, and workthe money off doing hard labour whilst in jail (which I assume he'll get anyway..)
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YaYawoman

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Icon 1 posted January 28, 2006 17:24      Profile for YaYawoman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You and your co-searchers are wonderful examples of real heros. All that effort and hope that you all gave and gave.

That poor boy. To be removed from one hell and placed into an even more evil situation. Who approved such violent people to be foster parents?I hope the foster parents suffer every day for the rest of their lives.

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nerdwithnofriends
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Icon 1 posted January 28, 2006 17:51      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by YaYawoman:
You and your co-searchers are wonderful examples of real heros. All that effort and hope that you all gave and gave.

That poor boy. To be removed from one hell and placed into an even more evil situation. Who approved such violent people to be foster parents?I hope the foster parents suffer every day for the rest of their lives.

Everone nknows the Foster system is fscked up; you can't pay people to look after kids and expect them to be nice, that's all there is to it.

--------------------
"The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of a digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top of a mountain or in the petals of a flower." - Robert M. Pirsig

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YaYawoman

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Icon 1 posted January 28, 2006 18:35      Profile for YaYawoman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by nerdwithnofriends:
quote:
Originally posted by YaYawoman:
You and your co-searchers are wonderful examples of real heros. All that effort and hope that you all gave and gave.

That poor boy. To be removed from one hell and placed into an even more evil situation. Who approved such violent people to be foster parents?I hope the foster parents suffer every day for the rest of their lives.

Everone nknows the Foster system is fscked up; you can't pay people to look after kids and expect them to be nice, that's all there is to it.
I have known a few foster families. One very very well. None of them were evil, none of them were fscked up, none of them were in it for the money. They did not profit from helping children, the money every month went to housing, feeding and clothing the children. I have met few people who were as kind, caring and capable as those families. Perhaps if social services stopped placing children into hellholes and found more people like the ones above less misery,abuse and murder will happen.
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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted January 28, 2006 18:43      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That's as horrifying as it is disgusting. They murdered a child and then preyed on the sympathy of good people to try and get away with it. Ew. Just ew. I feel for ya MoMan.

There's an ongoing case here in CO on a similar line. A girl's stepfather went to the police a while back to report that his dauhgter had runaway. The police at first thought the girl was a teenager and didn't really get the move on because runaway teens have a tendency to show up at friend's houses. But then, days later, it came to light that the child was 6, and they started looking. And then, suddenly, they find that NO ONE has seen this girl for two years. Two years. So now it's a murder investigation with (AFAIK) no body and a great big WTF written all over it.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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nerdwithnofriends
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Icon 1 posted January 28, 2006 20:12      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by YaYawoman:
quote:
Originally posted by nerdwithnofriends:
quote:
Originally posted by YaYawoman:
You and your co-searchers are wonderful examples of real heros. All that effort and hope that you all gave and gave.

That poor boy. To be removed from one hell and placed into an even more evil situation. Who approved such violent people to be foster parents?I hope the foster parents suffer every day for the rest of their lives.

Everone nknows the Foster system is fscked up; you can't pay people to look after kids and expect them to be nice, that's all there is to it.
I have known a few foster families. One very very well. None of them were evil, none of them were fscked up, none of them were in it for the money. They did not profit from helping children, the money every month went to housing, feeding and clothing the children. I have met few people who were as kind, caring and capable as those families. Perhaps if social services stopped placing children into hellholes and found more people like the ones above less misery,abuse and murder will happen.
My apologies. I did not mean to suggest that all foster families are evil, just that the way the system works it is bound to attract unwanted persons.

--------------------
"The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of a digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top of a mountain or in the petals of a flower." - Robert M. Pirsig

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YaYawoman

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Icon 1 posted January 28, 2006 20:46      Profile for YaYawoman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No need to apologize. I just figured I'd mention that some foster families are amazing. The foster care system needs to be held accountable for accepting incompetent,ignorant and violent people as foster parents. I am still trying to get the image of that boy murdered by the people the state placed in charge of rescuing and caring for him out of my head.
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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted January 29, 2006 04:39      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi All__________________Slight up date, and please do not label me as a hero, I do not want the label nor do I strive to be one, I am just an average bloke that does this because I can.

http://www.lsj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/99999999/NEWS01/50706001&theme=MISSING:_RICKY_HOLLAND&template=theme


By the way last summer we learned that he often ranaway, His bio mother and him had live on the lam and were quite skilled at dumpster diving, the prevailing thought was that he was tring to get back to his bio-mother.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Grummash

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Icon 1 posted January 29, 2006 14:55      Profile for Grummash     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TheMoMan:

This is a story that can really leave people bewildered, not least me. I don't know how you deal with this stuff, but I hope you can continue doing what you do.

You said that you don't want the label 'hero', and I can understand that; sometimes you have to do something simply because you can't conceive of leaving it not done.

There used to be a 'label' which meant a lot, but which nowadays seems sadly devalued, and that was 'a good man'.

I don't know you, but you sound like a good man to me.

--------------------
...and yet, across the gulf of space, minds immeasurably superior to ours regarded this earth with envious eyes...

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Erbo
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Icon 1 posted January 29, 2006 21:09            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm going to use the response that His Imperial Rottieness, Darth Misha I, would give to this sort of thing:

Rope. Tree. Foster "parents".

Some assembly required.


And, immediately following, same thing for the people from Child Abductive "Services" who placed that child with these monsters. We're gonna need a bunch more trees. And a lot more rope. [Mad]

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csk

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Icon 1 posted January 29, 2006 21:54      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
And, immediately following, same thing for the people from Child Abductive "Services" who placed that child with these monsters. We're gonna need a bunch more trees. And a lot more rope. [Mad]

And how exactly were they meant to tell that they were "monsters" before they handed the child over? I suspect that "if we give you a foster child, are you likely to murder it?" on the application form won't quite get honest answers...

--------------------
6 weeks to go!

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Erbo
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Icon 1 posted January 29, 2006 23:47            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by csk:
And how exactly were they meant to tell that they were "monsters" before they handed the child over? I suspect that "if we give you a foster child, are you likely to murder it?" on the application form won't quite get honest answers... [/QB]

This is true. But could they have kept a closer eye on these foster parents and their treatment of the boy, and maybe spotted signs of abuse and pulled him out long before it came down to locating the shallow grave he was buried in?

There have been a lot of cases of this recently, in multiple states. Kids are falling through the cracks, despite all the tax money that the various "children's" agencies get that's supposed to keep that from happening. Of course, in the real world, there's a surefire solution for people who aren't doing their jobs: fire them. But trying to get a civil "servant" fired is like trying to pull teeth...from Trogdor.

(There's a flipside, too...often times these agencies are too quick to snatch kids away from their natural parents, for reasons that have been misinterpreted or trumped-up. Hence the nickname of "Child Abductive Services.")

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 04:53      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
A good lynching does of course make the rest of us feel better, and helps us feel we are doing something, but Erbo's last post shows the flaw in his typically simplistic right wing solution. He wants the agencies to keep a closer eye on the children, yet at the same time make sure they have more than suspicions before intervening, (and I would guess he doesn't want to waste tax dollars on paying them to do it either). All these things of course work against each other, and sadly there is no avoiding a messy and imperfect compromise.

This is in no way meant to downplay the horror and revulsion that these cases rightly cause, but there never will be a perfect answer to this, until you develop a foolproof evilometer monster detector. Though we as a society are very aware of this problem, children are vulnerable and in these cases it is often hard to find out the truth from them, and the people who mistreat them behind closed doors are usually adept at lying.

It does make you want to beat your head against a wall...

--------------------
"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 05:27      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
They were not foster parents. According to the linked articles, they were adoptive parents. If we must villify a group, let's at least get the right label. Once an adoption is finalized, the welfare folks have no more reason (nor legal right) to supervise the family than they do for a natural (biological) family with no record of violence or abuse.

Blaming either group for the terrible tragedy of this youngster's death is really pretty stupid when you think about it, as is blaming the social workers and the government(s) that provide the services. It would be akin to blaming the worker on the assembly line who intalled the door handles on the car which was poorly designed with cheap parts for the fact that a pedestrian was run over by the poor driver who bought it. The fact is, for all the kids in placement, these horror stories don't happen all that often. Admittedly - once is too often, but then reality rears its ugly head.

So, as several have already remarked, the surrogate-caring-for-children system is flawed - less than perfect. Please! Feel free to submit your perfected designs to your local DCFS office - they will be happily received. Make sure your suggestions are well documented with your own years of parenting this population of kids without functional families.

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I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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Grey_girl

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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 07:52      Profile for Grey_girl     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm reading through the stories that are on that link, and only a few articles in, something the father said on the fourth day of the search jumped out at me:

quote:
"I probably should have opened the door and checked on him, but I trust him," Tim said.
You don't trust a bi-polar, ADHD 7-year-old who has a history of disappearing from home. Close friends of mine have a now 12-year-old daughter who is bi-polar and has ADHD. They barely ever let her out of their sight. They can't. They cringe when she simply wants to go outside and play, grateful that she is hyper and makes a lot of noise, so they know she's right in their carport. Checking on your child becomes ingrained. It has to be, for the child's safety. My son has ADD (no hyperactivity) and I can say that the disability becomes part of your parenting style very quickly and mostly without noticing it's happened. Personally, I would have been suspicious of that guy right away.

The mind boggles.

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Erbo
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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 07:59            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
GG, this kid wasn't adopted, he was in foster care, or at least that's the way I read TheMoMan's original post. That's supposed to be closely monitored by the CAS people who put the kid there in the first place. In my view, a murdered foster kid means someone in that agency wasn't doing his or her job. (Adoption is another matter, of course.)

Which brings me to Callipygous' comment. You're right, the two issues I highlighted do work at cross purposes. How does one resolve it? I suggest the answer lies in the basic Hippocratic principle: "First, do no harm." These are defenseless children we're talking about here. If the government can't do anything that will help them--and especially if it's just going to make matters worse--maybe it shouldn't be in that business in the first place.

True, some bad parents out there are still going to harm their children; any population will always have its share of asshats. The question is, does government involvement in these kids' lives make things, on the whole, better or worse? I suspect that the answer lies one way. You would probably say the opposite. We don't know. And nobody has much interest in finding out. Certainly not the CAS agencies themselves, not when the wrong answer might kick a lot of them off the gravy train. (The first and primary purpose of any government bureaucracy--not just CAS--is to hire and pay bureaucrats. Never forget this.)

I've read a number of things about the way CAS agencies do business, which are, quite frankly, chilling. I may post some of these things later.

(Disclaimer: All of this is easy for me to say, of course, since I have no children and no prospects for any...)

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Grey_girl

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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 08:09      Profile for Grey_girl     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
GG, this kid wasn't adopted, he was in foster care, or at least that's the way I read TheMoMan's original post. That's supposed to be closely monitored by the CAS people who put the kid there in the first place. In my view, a murdered foster kid means someone in that agency wasn't doing his or her job. (Adoption is another matter, of course.)


Erbo,

You're responding without reading the articles TheMoMan linked to or the posts made right in this thread. The boy had been adopted by the family. And that is irrelevant anyway to the point I am making. The point was that the father gave himself away by day four of the search. That has nothing to do with foster care, adoption, or monitoring by child protective services.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 09:33      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
The question is, does government involvement in these kids' lives make things, on the whole, better or worse? I suspect that the answer lies one way. You would probably say the opposite. We don't know. And nobody has much interest in finding out.

There is a difficulty in this superficially attractive notion

How can one establish any kind of objective metric for success or failure in this Erbo? And do you judge by the number of lives lost, or the number saved? And how on earth would you measure that last figure? The best successes in this field is where a situation is turned around, and a family takes responsibility for itself and stays together. By its nature this sort of success will be invisible, because the main people responsible for it will be the family members themselves even if an outside agency acted as a catalyst. Success has a hundred fathers but failure is always an orphan. It must also be nigh impossible to say with any certainty when an agency's intervention has saved a life, though of course one can make an educated guess. The only thing one can measure with any certainty are the outright and complete failures.

All you can do is ensure that the work of these people is reasonably open and transparent, though even here issues of client confidentiality must often work against this.

So inevitably this will come down to the usual sterile left vs right ding dong, one party arguing that any publicly funded body will be by its nature corrupt and inefficient, and the other that this is valuable work and asking how do you put a monetary value on human life. I do however think that few people would argue that because success is hard to quantify here, that all work in this area should cease.

--------------------
"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 10:56      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:

How can one establish any kind of objective metric for success or failure in this Erbo? And do you judge by the number of lives lost, or the number saved? And how on earth would you measure that last figure? The best successes in this field is where a situation is turned around, and a family takes responsibility for itself and stays together. By its nature this sort of success will be invisible, because the main people responsible for it will be the family members themselves even if an outside agency acted as a catalyst. Success has a hundred fathers but failure is always an orphan. It must also be nigh impossible to say with any certainty when an agency's intervention has saved a life, though of course one can make an educated guess. The only thing one can measure with any certainty are the outright and complete failures.

All you can do is ensure that the work of these people is reasonably open and transparent, though even here issues of client confidentiality must often work against this.

So inevitably this will come down to the usual sterile left vs right ding dong, one party arguing that any publicly funded body will be by its nature corrupt and inefficient, and the other that this is valuable work and asking how do you put a monetary value on human life. I do however think that few people would argue that because success is hard to quantify here, that all work in this area should cease.

Very well put and insightful, Calli. Really. [Applause] You've well summarized the concurrent difficulties which occur constantly when trying to deal with the circumstances of minor children in need of upbringing and stable parental care. [thumbsup]

Thanks. Those who work in the system are often quite frustrated by these neverending problems, but giving up on kids, or the system of care providers, is certainly not the answer.

--------------------
I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 11:00      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
From what I read in the article, I think that the child in this case was adopted, but my have been originally assigned to them as a foster child. One article mentions that they had another foster child they were in the process of adopting.

The foster care system certainly is imperfect, but while perfection is desireable, is it attainable? Government bureaucracy is often problematic, but if the government doesn't do this, then who? As Garlicguy pointed out, it's easy to see where there are problems in the current system, but is there a better solution? I'll lay odds there are a lot of children out there who would be dead if not for the foster care system.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 15:06      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi To All______________________I am sorry that I implyed that The child was not adopted, however in all of the briefings at the Sheriffs tent were in the tone of Foster. I also with held info that would be germain to the prosicution of the parents, when you do this sort of thing as a team member you have more info than the rest of the search team members such as the codes to report sucess so that the News agencies do not know what the out come is.

Here is info I can release, this was not his first runaway the Sheriff knew quite alot about the child such as he liked hidey holes and climbing trees and would not bolt like a deer or rabbit unless stepped on. I believe that he had done this at least three or four times, So was he ADHD or was that label put on him. Why social service did not not know about these runaway attempts, quite afew I do not know. He often packed food and water, and clean socks. He also knew how to read the stars for direction.

Now on to his bio parents, Father was in jail (long term) Mother no support living on the lam, dumpster diving and such. He often struck out in the direction of Maternal Grand mother, so no one looked in direction of hidden body.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged


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