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Author Topic: The White House vs Science
ChildeRoland
Alpha Geek
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Icon 1 posted February 09, 2006 18:29      Profile for ChildeRoland     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
And I'm not insulting all protestants- just the extremist fundamentalist ones.
The way you worded it, it seemed like you were accusing all protestants of being 'fundamentalist fools.'
quote:
What I'm trying to get across is that maybe there's a reason the Catholic church forbade the reading of the bible by the masses for so long- if you take it literally, you are bound to run into trouble.
So, instead of allowing people to go out and find salvation for themselves, you should tell them that the bible tells you how to give it to them. And of course you'll be willing to share as long as they have money for the collection plate every Sunday? Afterall, you don't want them running out there and thinking for themselves.
quote:
I just hate it when people say 'I hate christians because they don't believe (or are not supposed to believe in) evolution.'

There is no intelligent person who will make that statement, I can agree with you on this one.

quote:
I also dislike being associated with the 'religious right' and/or republicans because I'm Catholic. Most Catholics vote democratic, if you must know.
I do know that most Catholics vote Democrat, only a moron would associate all Catholics (or even a large majority) with the Republican party.

quote:
I really can't stand to be associated with the southern fundamentalists who are an all-out jihad on science just because 'bible says it ain't true'.
I really haven't seen evidence of this 'jihad' that you speak of, maybe you can point me towards an informative, and factual, news article.

quote:
Just because you disagree with me, don't accuse me of ignorance. I make it a point to know what I'm talking about when it comes to religion.
I wasn't accusing you of ignorance 'cause I disagree with you, I was saying it because only an ignorent person would call all protestants 'fundamentalist fools.'

BTW, I do disagree with you, but I am not even Christian. I consider myself a well read agnostic, but some of the crimes that the Catholic church has commited really put a distaste in my mouth. I think if you really knew what you were talking about you wouldn't be Catholic, but I will be one of the first to admit that I have never heard a good argument FOR the Catholic church. If you know of one, I would love to get a link or something so I can expand my knowledge.

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Childe Roland

Posts: 311 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
nerdwithnofriends
Uber Geek
Member # 3773

Icon 1 posted February 09, 2006 20:12      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ChildeRoland:

-snip-

BTW, I do disagree with you, but I am not even Christian. I consider myself a well read agnostic, but some of the crimes that the Catholic church has commited really put a distaste in my mouth. I think if you really knew what you were talking about you wouldn't be Catholic, but I will be one of the first to admit that I have never heard a good argument FOR the Catholic church. If you know of one, I would love to get a link or something so I can expand my knowledge.

And the Catholic Church is the only religious organization to commit crimes? I'm sorry, but you can't be like 'ah, those dirty Catholics' while ignoring the faults of all (yes, all) other religions.

I'll be the first to admit that we are most definitely not a 'pure' organization, but we do strive to be. Most religions do. I see what's going on with the Muslims in the middle east over those silly cartoons, and think to myself 'OMFG', but I don't judge them by what a small fraction of their population are being goaded into doing by an even smaller fraction of instigators. Even if the Quran does condone violence, I still don't go up to them and say 'you're stupid because you did this and this and this.'

The Catholic church has been used as a tool. If you notice, the names of many of the major demons listed in the Pseudomonarchia Daemonum are actually the names of old Pagan gods- this was to belittle their value and make infiltration and subsequent conquest of their culture easier.

But is first and foremost a religion. I can't give you a link to follow to 'prove' why one should be Catholic; you can't 'prove' anything when it comes to matters of faith. I think you know this, and that's why you ask for 'evidence'

But here's my reason for being part of the Catholic Church: you can't just get into heaven by accepting Jesus into your life. It's not that simple. You must also be a good person, which includes trying to help those less fortunate than yourself. I relate well to this. Many protestant churches (and again, for clarification, not all; there are simply too many to compare) only demand that you accept Jesus, and whalla, you're saved.

Catholic dogma dictates that we will all spend some time in purgatory; this is unavoidable, because no person is without sin, and you have to pay for those sins- similar to what the modern day prison system is meant to do.

Are there certain things about the Catholic Church that are ass-backwards? Of course, I don't think I could list them all here. But every religious organization has its pitfalls, and with these pitfalls come advantages; the advantages of the Catholic church appeal to me individually, and so I believve it to be 'the' religion. Other people think differently; some people believe that the church allowing people to buy their way into heaven five hundred years ago means that the church is evil now; more power to them.

But your insinuation that an 'intelligent' person can't have faith in the Roman Catholic Church is most unappreciated, and does not comply to the spirit and attitude of these fora.

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"The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of a digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top of a mountain or in the petals of a flower." - Robert M. Pirsig

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted February 09, 2006 20:24      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
But here's my reason for being part of the Catholic Church: you can't just get into heaven by accepting Jesus into your life. It's not that simple.... because no person is without sin, and you have to pay for those sins- similar to what the modern day prison system is meant to do.
NWNF, this is probably the main difference between Catholics and the rest of the Christians in this world: We (the Christian non-Catholics) believe that Jesus is all-powerful and we, in our utter sinful depravity, can't even begin to atone for all our sin. Jesus died for us—he paid the sin-debt that we can't even think of paying—and to suggest that we need to add to his salvation is to demean his power and saving grace. Wasn't it Paul who wrote about that very thing? The Jews were trying to obey every little bit of the Law and thus add to their salvation, but Paul told them to calm down and stop fretting. Jesus had taken care of their salvation on the cross (and in his resurrection).

Yes, we are to do good works as a result of our salvation and out of gratitude for the forgiveness of our sins, but that's not what saves us... Ephesians 2:8-10, NIV ~ For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I know this is only one reference, but for the Catholic church to declare we need to do certain things to be saved is contrary to the teaching of the Bible and could even be considered false doctrine. [ohwell]

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Change the way you SEE, not the way you LOOK!

Posts: 3849 | From: Lancaster, PA | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
nerdwithnofriends
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Icon 1 posted February 09, 2006 20:43      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
quote:
But here's my reason for being part of the Catholic Church: you can't just get into heaven by accepting Jesus into your life. It's not that simple.... because no person is without sin, and you have to pay for those sins- similar to what the modern day prison system is meant to do.
NWNF, this is probably the main difference between Catholics and the rest of the Christians in this world: We (the Christian non-Catholics) believe that Jesus is all-powerful and we, in our utter sinful depravity, can't even begin to attone for all our sin. Jesus died for us—he paid the sin-debt that we can't even think of paying—and to suggest that we need to add to his salvation is to demean his power and saving grace. Wasn't it Paul who wrote about that very thing? The Jews were trying to obey every little bit of the Law and thus add to their salvation, but Paul told them to calm down and stop fretting. Jesus had taken care of their salvation on the cross (and in his resurrection).

Yes, we are to do good works as a result of our salvation and out of gratitude for the forgiveness of our sins, but that's not what saves us... Ephesians 2:8-10, NIV ~ For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I know this is only one reference, but for the Catholic church to declare we need to do certain things to be saved is contrary to the teaching of the Bible and could even be considered false doctrine. [ohwell]

Or maybe he gave us the chance to make up for what we did instead of going straight to hell? Accepting Christ guarantees that you will eventually be accepted into heaven; however, it does not mean that you will get off without having to atone. Accepting Christ is the first step to a christian salvation; according to Catholic dogma, however, one must also be a good person.

I personally believe it to be the other way round- one must first be a good person and then accept Christ; but either way, one must still be a good person.

We are, however, wandering into what I like to call 'pointless' territory. That is, we are starting to debate over which religion is correct and which isn't; nobody can win this debate. My main point in posting prior to this was to make a rebuttal against ChildeRoland's 'Catholicism == ignorance' statement. He asked for a reason why one would choose Catholicism as opposed to one of the Protestant religions, and I say the same to you as I say to him: I can't offer any rock-solid 'evidence' or 'proof', only my personal beliefs and the arguments therefor; no more, no less.

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"The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of a digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top of a mountain or in the petals of a flower." - Robert M. Pirsig

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted February 10, 2006 08:50      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ChildeRoland:
You've never read Luther's 95 Theses have you? Here it is if you want to know the actual truth. Or, his Smalcald Articles.

And, I know it's not really pertinent to the conversation at hand, but it is wrong for nwnf to insult protestants as a whole just because his church told him that they were/are wrong without doing any research or study into the subject.

A criticism of the Catholic Church written nearly 500 years ago isn't your best source of information. The Catholic Church instituted their own changes in the face of the Reformation movements (sometimes called the Counter-Reformation).

Wikipedia has a decent article on Indulgences:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

Posts: 1590 | From: Fresno, CA | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
ewomack
Highlie
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Icon 1 posted February 16, 2006 12:17      Profile for ewomack   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
<necropost />

Yes, Vatican II happened in the 1960s and the church reversed its decision on Galileo some three hundred years later. Looks like a point for progress! [Razz]

Some pretty old documents - the bible, for one (and I would argue that a 3rd century book isn't a good guide to life for 21st century people) - still greatly influence the Catholic church. It's conservative to an immeasurable degree. Whether or not Luther's theses are appropriate remains to be seen, but they're not inappropriate just because they're old. When it comes to studying the Catholic church the long term view probably serves as the best one. They have thier tendrils in the ideologies of various centuries.

Now if they would just stop telling people not to wear condoms... [ohwell]

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Ed Womack
Get Milked

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted February 16, 2006 13:40      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
From the Wikipedia article previously linked:
quote:
By decree of Pope Pius V in 1567, following the Council of Trent, it is forbidden to attach the receipt of an indulgence to any financial act, including the giving of alms.
The Council of Trent would be part of the counter-reformation I mentioned.

I won't deny that the Catholic church in particular tends to be pretty conservative, but not as much as we are sometimes lead to believe.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

Posts: 1590 | From: Fresno, CA | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Grummash

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Icon 1 posted February 16, 2006 14:04      Profile for Grummash     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It is always difficult to discuss religion, and indeed specific religions, without upsetting someone. That said, if we don't debate we lose an opportunity to learn about each other. Therefore, I am going to stick my $0.02 in, which goes something like this....

The main problem people have with specific, individual religions, is when there is a massive disparity between the 'official' version and what could be considered as the 'original core values' of that faith.

For example (as Catholicism is in the spotlight), consider how many honest, caring and decent Catholics you know, or have heard about, and then compare their attitude with aspects of the 'official' version of Catholicism.

I will take the encyclical "Veritatis Splendor" as representing the official version of Catholicism, although I accept that it is not "bang up to date" and indeed was not written by the current Capo di tutti Capi.

"....the Church has the right always and everywhere to proclaim moral principles, even in respect of the social order, and to make judgments about any human matter in so far as this is required by fundamental human rights or the salvation of souls...."(my italics)

Put more simply..."We are right, every time, and we get to tell you that your life is wrong."

This does not reflect the humility and understanding which the Nazarene asked us to aim for in all our dealings with people. Still, at least we can allow that the Catholic church is not alone in this arrogance. When we visit a friend for Shabbas tomorrow, there will be some curtain-twitchers who will be mortified to see one of their community open her doors to Gentiles on the sabbath.

If only people would accept that, at the deepest level, all the significant faiths are very similar and it is only the weakness of humans and human societies that has made them so opposed to each other.

Here endeth the rant... and if you have stuck with it this far, thank you. [Smile]

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...and yet, across the gulf of space, minds immeasurably superior to ours regarded this earth with envious eyes...

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mark717
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Icon 1 posted May 28, 2007 21:45      Profile for mark717     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
just don't say bad things about president Bush...
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