homeGeek CultureWebstoreeCards!Forums!Joy of Tech!AY2K!webcam

The Geek Culture Forums


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Geek Culture Forums   » News, Reviews, Views!   » Rants, Raves, Rumors!   » Fed up with politics!!! (Page 4)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!  
This topic comprises 5 pages: 1  2  3  4  5 
 
Author Topic: Fed up with politics!!!
JulioC
Geek
Member # 4370

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted October 18, 2005 03:30      Profile for JulioC     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Youre right Rhonwyyn, " Either way, you need to decide for yourselves, for every action taken, the short-term and long-term consequences. Who will be hurt now? Who will be helped? Who will be hurt or helped in the future as a direct or indirect result of what we choose today?"

Maybe that's what Osama was thinking when he planned Sept 11. I mean, look at the aftermath. USA has lost its prestige, Bush has started a war that he still hasnt been able to finish (and intelligently allowed Alqaeda to enter Iraq)and he's already talking about attacking Iran.

Short term consequences? Loss of innocent lives at the World Trade Center.

Long term consequences? USA becoming the laughingstock of the world.

[Wink]

Posts: 182 | From: Brazil | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cap'n Vic

Member # 1477

Icon 1 posted October 18, 2005 09:41      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think Bush's adgenda is simple; he wants to bring freedom to all people, and a dead person can't be oppressed or controlled by an eeeeeeevil dictator. In summary, kill everyone who has something you want, or stands in your way.

When the world is one big, rich red state we will truely be free.

...Big...Red....State....That sounds familar for some reason.

--------------------
(!) (T) = 8-D

Posts: 5471 | From: One of the drones from sector 7G | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
greycat

Member # 945

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted October 18, 2005 13:17      Profile for greycat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Haven't we learned, by now, not to debate US foreign policy with ASM? [shake head]
Posts: 1522 | From: Ohio, USA | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
The White Tree
Geek
Member # 4040

Member Rated:
3
Icon 1 posted October 18, 2005 17:14      Profile for The White Tree     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well, to start off, I am very bad at actually saying what I truely believe. In no way do I believe torture is a good thing, and most of the time it is not necessary. My statements are more readily applied to the entire war on terrorism and the occupation of Iraq. The thing that really irks me is that many other people are just looking at the short term affects of our actions in the middle east. Eventually, things will stabilize and there will be relative peace over there. I just don;t want this turning into another Vietnam in which we are referred to as "baby killers" and we are looked down upon by the general populace. Just as an example, look at World War II. It took a war to bring peace.
Posts: 201 | From: York, PA, residing/school at NNPTC at NWS Charleston, SC. | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 1769

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted October 19, 2005 02:27      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
Speaking from an American point of view (for once), I'm sure it was torture to die from a musket ball taken in the stomach... (etc etc)

In all of those cases, from the Revolutionary War forward, freedom was hard-fought and hard-won.

'Freedom' is a hard thing to define, it means different things to different people.
One definition, albeit not a very useful one, is this...

Freedom is knowing your government will never hoist you up by the wrists, whip you with a rubber hose and dangle your feet in a fire

The kind of people who do that kind of thing might bring you victory in war, but they will never bring you 'Freedom'.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
ChildeRoland
Alpha Geek
Member # 3880

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted October 19, 2005 03:15      Profile for ChildeRoland     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
I think Bush's adgenda is simple; he wants to bring freedom to all people, and a dead person can't be oppressed or controlled by an eeeeeeevil dictator. In summary, kill everyone who has something you want, or stands in your way.

When the world is one big, rich red state we will truely be free.

Are you really stupid enough to believe what you just said?

--------------------
=====================
Childe Roland

Posts: 311 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cap'n Vic

Member # 1477

Icon 2 posted October 19, 2005 10:23      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ChildeRoland:
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
I think Bush's adgenda is simple; he wants to bring freedom to all people, and a dead person can't be oppressed or controlled by an eeeeeeevil dictator. In summary, kill everyone who has something you want, or stands in your way.

When the world is one big, rich red state we will truely be free.

Are you really stupid enough to believe what you just said?
Are you new? [Roll Eyes]

BTW 51% of Americans agreed enough with that statement to re-elect Bush.

Posts: 5471 | From: One of the drones from sector 7G | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sxeptomaniac

Member # 3698

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted October 19, 2005 10:45      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
quote:
Originally posted by ChildeRoland:
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
I think Bush's adgenda is simple; he wants to bring freedom to all people, and a dead person can't be oppressed or controlled by an eeeeeeevil dictator. In summary, kill everyone who has something you want, or stands in your way.

When the world is one big, rich red state we will truely be free.

Are you really stupid enough to believe what you just said?
Are you new? [Roll Eyes]

BTW 51% of Americans agreed enough with that statement to re-elect Bush.

Umm, that's your assessment, not necessarily the one that Bush's voters used.

I do agree that Bush seems to believe his freedom speeches. As far as killing everyone that prevents him from getting what he wants, I don't see how that can be supported logically.

A lot of his worst decisions have been towards making the US "safe." Considering the number of Democrats/liberals who criticized Bush for not doing enough to stop 9/11, I consider his decisions since then to be a classic "be careful what you ask for" scenario.

--------------------
Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

Posts: 1590 | From: Fresno, CA | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cap'n Vic

Member # 1477

Icon 1 posted October 19, 2005 12:20      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
A lot of his worst decisions have been towards making the US "safe." Considering the number of Democrats/liberals who criticized Bush for not doing enough to stop 9/11....

Ok.....take a big step back. Now ask yourself this:

Why is America a target?

'They hate us because of our freedoms' is not a valid answer.

Posts: 5471 | From: One of the drones from sector 7G | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cap'n Vic

Member # 1477

Icon 1 posted October 19, 2005 12:25      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Oh, and here is a hint should you need one.

--------------------
(!) (T) = 8-D

Posts: 5471 | From: One of the drones from sector 7G | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sxeptomaniac

Member # 3698

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted October 19, 2005 12:57      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
[QUOTE]Ok.....take a big step back. Now ask yourself this:

Why is America a target?

That's a good question, and the only thing I am positive of is that it is not attributable to one single cause. Policies and past actions regarding the Middle East, such as the above linked, are probably part of it, but it doesn't explain it all.

One piece of it seems to also be the Muslim extremists' intolerance for other religions. They see the US as a symbol of Christianity, and feel they need to wage a Jihad against it. Another seems to be a hatred for the financial success found here, which they may feel has come at their expense. Yet another part may be that they see us a symbol of Western decadence, more so than other countries.

I suppose a further object of debate is what is the validity of the known issues, which are their primary reasons for the hatred, and what, if anything, can be done about them.


Edit: I should add that if it was purely foreign policy, then why would terrorists attack the World Trade Center twice? It would bring a far more powerful message to stick to government or military targets.

--------------------
Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

Posts: 1590 | From: Fresno, CA | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 1769

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted October 19, 2005 15:51      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
On a related note, it's good to see that the introductioon of Democracy in Iraq has been a great success [thumbsdown]

Apparently, in exit polls, 100% of Iraqis replied
quote:
The terrorists are attacking the infrastructure, the children and all of Iraq, they are enemies of humanity without religion or any sort of ethics. They have attacked my community today and I will now take the fight to the terrorists.


--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sxeptomaniac

Member # 3698

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted October 19, 2005 16:45      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
On a related note, it's good to see that the introductioon of Democracy in Iraq has been a great success [thumbsdown]

While it bears looking into, I can't say I would be surprised to find that Shiites and Kurds voted for the new constitution in such large numbers. After all, Saddam's Sunni government repressed them for a long time, and this is their chance to have a voice. While fraud is still a possibility, it's hardly a foregone conclusion in a tribal society like Iraq.

--------------------
Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

Posts: 1590 | From: Fresno, CA | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
The White Tree
Geek
Member # 4040

Member Rated:
3
Icon 1 posted October 20, 2005 11:52      Profile for The White Tree     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thats another thing that irks me. It seems like everyone who is against the war in Iraq never has an optomistic outlook on much of anything. Now, there is a slight difference between realism and pessimism. At least entertain the the thought that this might just turn out good in the end. It is kind of hard to tell right now.
Posts: 201 | From: York, PA, residing/school at NNPTC at NWS Charleston, SC. | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
ASM65816
SuperBlabberMouth!
Member # 712

Member Rated:
2
Icon 2 posted October 21, 2005 20:12      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Part I: So No One Blames the UN for Anything?

In another thread I asked if some societies were best served by dictatorships and similar governments. No one defended dictatorships as "good for the people," yet here the sentiment seems to be "Saddam wasn't all that bad."

Some would say at least Hitler made the trains run on time, or that Tito kept three antagonistic cultures from killing one another during his rule, but these points were not mentioned.

So far everyone has ignored the UN's role in Iraq: Does the UN believe that some countries benefit most by keeping dictators in power? Does the UN think that sometimes the best way to handle a dictator is to give him more money and ignore any crimes he commits? Is Darfur better off because the UN says that "it's not really genocide, it's more like an unusual crime rate"?

quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
Under Saddam's rule a visitor remarked that he felt safer in Bagdad than New York.

Does that mean that the visitor's quality of life outweighs that of the country's people? Also, Saddam cared about Baghdad, but Shiite and Kurdish cities weren't so fortunate and even though visitors may "feel safe," being in a Kurdish town during a chemical attack would hardly be safe.

The UN should change its charter to read: "Sometimes the needs of the dictators outweigh the needs of the people."

Part II: Obtaining Freedom

quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
Freedoms that stick are ones that a people have won for themselves.

I think you underestimate the difficulty of overcoming a totalitarian government which has modern weapons.

1. Since the development of machine guns, a single armed man can kill very large numbers of people. Check the body counts in WWI. Revolting against a government armed with swords and arrows was "a lot easier."

2. Dictators don't support the right of the people to own weapons, for obvious reasons. In a fight between a group of unarmed people and a group with mortars and automatic weapons, the unarmed people lose. Check body counts in Rwanda and Darfur.

3. Germans didn't win their freedom from Hitler, Italians didn't win their freedom from Mussolini, and the Japanese didn't overthrow their emperor; the respective governments were brought down by foreign powers. The French interfered with British control over the American colonies; once again, foreign influence played a significant role in the change of governments. This isn't an isolated phenomenon; communist powers have "influenced" foreign government changes as well.

Part III: Treating Terrorists Like Car Thieves?

Apparently some people have the following logic:
  * Terrorists don't belong to armies controlled by recognized governments ...
  * Therefore they are not acting under state mandate (lawful orders) ...
  * Therefore their actions are independent and by their own willful choice ...
  * Therefore all liability for wrongdoing is on the individual, not the organizations that approve of and endorse illegal activity ...
  * Therefore, in cases which involve suicide bombers, only the suicide bombers may be charged with murder.
  Note: There is no "Pre-Crime." Suicide bombings must be successfully completed before criminal charges are filed.

This "solution" obviously does nothing to stop terrorism. It makes a specific point to ignore that a person who claims that it is their duty to God to kill others is very likely to go around killing people. Many societies would regard such a person as criminally insane. It also ignores that someone "speaking on behalf of God" is the direct motivation for the person's criminal behavior (insanity).

For all the blame placed on Bush and US troops, it appears that holding hostages and using people as human shields is socially acceptable and legal (maybe it's a misdemeanor), but any action which results in the death of hostages is murder and genocide. In other words: Submit to the demands of those who use murder and extortion.

Part IV: "Ask Why They Want to Kill"

quote:
Originally posted by JulioC:
Short term consequences? Loss of innocent lives at the World Trade Center.

Maybe you haven't noticed, but the choice of "short term consequences" for taking innocent lives has been going on for several decades. Of course, maybe you're right that killing innocents only has short term consequences. After a week or so, nobody really cares about the dead, and the UN issues the statement "never again" (at least when a government is killing its own people). [shake head]

quote:
Originally posted by The White Tree:
It seems like everyone who is against the war in Iraq never has an optimistic outlook on much of anything.

Actually I thought some people were (insanely) optimistic because they think that the UN is doing a great job of protecting people around world and giving them hope (except the ones that get buried in mass graves). [shake head]

quote:
Why is America a target? ... blah blah blah
Sure.... and the Jews should have asked "why" Hitler was putting them in gas chambers -- because they took everything that rightfully belonged to the Aryan race and were part of a conspiracy to control the world. [shake head]

Here's my question: Of what value is the "reason" (why) of someone that beheads truck drivers, kills humanitarian aid workers, and claims that anyone participating in an election has violated the law of God?

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

Posts: 1035 | From: Third rock from sun. | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sxeptomaniac

Member # 3698

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted October 21, 2005 20:35      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I believe "why" is always a valid question, even though, or maybe because, it rarely provides clean answers.

--------------------
Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

Posts: 1590 | From: Fresno, CA | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 1769

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted October 21, 2005 21:59      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Who farted?

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
garlicguy

Member # 3166

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted October 22, 2005 09:23      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
Who farted?

Troublemaker. [shake head] You know very well that it was one of the Pythons in the Holy Grail. After all, it was in "your general direction." [Big Grin]

--------------------
I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Posts: 3752 | From: Pluto, no matter what you call it, is still my home. | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Grummash

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 4289

Icon 1 posted October 22, 2005 15:25      Profile for Grummash     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Your muzzair was a hamstair, and your farzair smelled of elderberreeez" ...or possibly the other way round [Big Grin]

--------------------
...and yet, across the gulf of space, minds immeasurably superior to ours regarded this earth with envious eyes...

Posts: 2335 | From: Lancashire,UK | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 1769

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted October 22, 2005 15:55      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
he he he ... i told eem we've alrrrreday got one ....

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
The White Tree
Geek
Member # 4040

Member Rated:
3
Icon 1 posted October 22, 2005 18:21      Profile for The White Tree     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You don't frighten us, English pig dogs. Go and boil your bottoms, you sons of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called "Arthur King," you and all your silly English K-nig-hts.
Posts: 201 | From: York, PA, residing/school at NNPTC at NWS Charleston, SC. | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 1769

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted October 22, 2005 18:47      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time-a...

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
garlicguy

Member # 3166

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted October 22, 2005 21:36      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Now, this is your last chance. I've been more than reasonable.

Sir! I have a plan, sir.

[later]

[wind]
[saw saw saw saw saw saw saw saw saw saw saw saw saw saw saw saw]
[clunk]
[bang]
[rewr!]
[squeak squeak squeak squeak squeak squeak squeak squeak squeak squeak]
[rrrr rrrr rrrr]
[drilllll]
[sawwwww]
[clunk]
[crash]
[clang]
[squeak squeak squeak squeak squeak...]

 -

--------------------
I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Posts: 3752 | From: Pluto, no matter what you call it, is still my home. | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 1769

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted October 22, 2005 22:04      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Naughty naughty GarlicGuy, you deserve a spanking!

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
garlicguy

Member # 3166

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted October 22, 2005 22:17      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes, yes. You must give us all a good spanking!

--------------------
I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Posts: 3752 | From: Pluto, no matter what you call it, is still my home. | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged


All times are Eastern Time
This topic comprises 5 pages: 1  2  3  4  5 
 
Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | Geek Culture Home Page

2015 Geek Culture

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.4.0



homeGeek CultureWebstoreeCards!Forums!Joy of Tech!AY2K!webcam