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Author Topic: Is it really worth it?
CommanderShroom
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Icon 2 posted November 23, 2004 10:03      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The other day I saw a commercial for a menopausal medication (Effexor, I think) that just made me stop and say WTF?

They go through the usual crud about how much happier and better you will be taking this medication. You know and show all these people out para-sailing or some crud.

Then the side effects are stated. May cause demetia, stroke, heart attacks...

Um, forgive me ladies perhaps I am just confused. Could hot flashes be so bad that dementia is a reasonable side effect to get rid of the sweats?

What is it with people and medications that appear to make you more miserable than what originally is the problem? I have allergies but the idea of constipation and/or nose bleeds does not sound like a good trade off. And some of the newest miracle drugs sound horrible to me. But that particular one just stunned me.

You may go insane, but no more hot flashes! [shake head]

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Mac D
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Icon 1 posted November 23, 2004 10:24      Profile for Mac D     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"I'm going to remove the symptoms, But leave the cause"

- Dr. Frankenfurter

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TMBWITW,PB

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Icon 1 posted November 23, 2004 10:37      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Actually, I think that quote is the other way around.

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Mac D
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Icon 1 posted November 23, 2004 10:45      Profile for Mac D     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TMBWITW,PB:
Actually, I think that quote is the other way around.

I think your right

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted November 23, 2004 15:03      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Just like a commercial on TV right now for an X-Box/Playstation game right now.. comes with a 'paintball gun' and you play the game with the gun, but in the REALLY FAST spiel the guy gives at the end, where says "batteries not included" and such, he also says, "game is not motion sensitive."

[Razz]

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Serenak

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Icon 1 posted November 23, 2004 15:16      Profile for Serenak     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Surely the whole point of menopausal/post-menopausal HRT etc is supposed to be to help avoid exactly these sort of problems?

So like WTF is this product doing on the shelves?

It seems to be like selling a sleeping aid who's side effects include "agitation, irritability, headaches, IBS and in ling term use insomnia..."

[Frown]

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted November 23, 2004 15:39      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You must understand that here in the US they like to drug you to the gills. Money in big pharma's pockets, doncha know? Any sort of discomfort, they're making a pill for, from erectile dysfunction to overactive bladders to hairloss. They're even making pills for people with a rare genetic disorder that makes them have fevers when the temperature drops (according to the article, a fair number of these sufferers are saying "no thanks, I can deal"). If they can find the target, they make the drug and then market said drug. It's something I do want to get into, but I want to make drugs for actual diseases, you know, the serious things that actually kill people, like bacterial infections that are resistant to all currently known antibiotics or cancer.

And if you don't like the side effects, well, there's pills for those too. There's probably a pill for my hands, but I'd rather use a lotion.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted November 23, 2004 15:46      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
You must understand that here in the US they like to drug you to the gills.

You should also understand that every drug has side-effects on somebody, and the ambulance-chasing parasites are just waiting to pounce, so the manufacturers warn against all known risks, no matter how unlikely.

When I had some surgery a while ago, my surgeon was warning me of risks in the 1/10,000 range. That's just silly.

/me is a big fan of modern medicine, with all its faults.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted November 23, 2004 15:46      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
We don't have really many TV adverts for drugs in the UK, so they were something I really enjoyed when I went to NY earlier this year. They all seem to follow the same naive and amusing format. Usually a well dressed happy flirting couple of models laughing away in one of those Adland settings with lots of smart furniture, while a background voice soothingly explains how she, (and it usually is a she) has been freed from some debilitating condition by this wonder substance, then in the last 5 seconds someone from the legal department comes on and reads the small print incredibly fast usually ending with "..consultyourphysicianmaycauseinjurymadnessordeath"

I find it hard to imagine why anyone would be persuaded to ask for any of these products, but it makes for amusing television.

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CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted November 23, 2004 15:54      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I like drugs, or at least I did. They were fun, they were dangerous, they were illegal.

It just confounds me that things like that even come out. And pot is a controlledsubstance and think about its side effects (may cause uncontollable stupidity and bad midnight snack descisions). To me 1/10,000 are pretty bad odds considering how many people will run out and buy this stuff. And anything that has enough people suffering from something like dementia that you have to list it to the top of side effects, is not good.

And to me that is not small deal. There is a pill for everything under the sun. But I can drive myself insane without anyone's help, thank you.

I guess what gets to me the most is that this is considered acceptable. That we consider taking a pill to help us after taking a pill is perfectly normal. </rant and ramble.

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted November 23, 2004 16:22      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't understand why more people don't just suck it up and live their lives.
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Swiss Mercenary

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Icon 11 posted November 23, 2004 17:15      Profile for Swiss Mercenary     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Marilyn Manson:
You and I are underdosed and we're ready to fall
Raised to be stupid, taught to be nothing at all
I don't like the drugs but the drugs like me
I don't like the drugs, the drugs, the drugs

[crazy] [Roll Eyes]

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Flashfire
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Icon 1 posted November 24, 2004 11:08      Profile for Flashfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CommanderShroom:
It just confounds me that things like that even come out. And pot is a controlledsubstance and think about its side effects (may cause uncontollable stupidity and bad midnight snack descisions). To me 1/10,000 are pretty bad odds considering how many people will run out and buy this stuff. And anything that has enough people suffering from something like dementia that you have to list it to the top of side effects, is not good.

As far as I can see, the reason for the disparity is that there is no giant THC industry breathing down the government's neck to get their products approved.

Many of the drugs a pharmaceutical company makes really do work the biological equivalent of miracles -- some of the Alzheimer's meds come to mind -- but in order to fund the research these drugs take they have to make it up by selling other, not-so-necessary products. And these products get rushed to market without getting the scrutiny they really need.

The FDA is broken -- it's too small, overworked, and underfunded. Hopefully, things may start to change now that people have started to notice (Merck just got in some major trouble for releasing an arthritis drug that turns out to increase chances of heart attacks by almost 5 times), but I don't expect too much.

It really comes down to the people taking the medication -- after all, it's not being forced down their throats. Patients need to be reminded that pills are a big deal, and that more research than watching a TV commercial and "talking to your doctor" is necessary. I think once they realize that, and truly evaluate their quality of life, we'll see less of this type of abuse.

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Serenak

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Icon 1 posted November 24, 2004 17:06      Profile for Serenak     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Trouble is it IS *forced* down peoplesí throats.

Advertising, media, GPs with a need to shift patients to quota (here in GB the average GP is allocated 7mins per patient consultation - about enough time to say "Name? Age? Illness? Here take these...) all lead to the `'Just give me pill X - I saw it on TV" - or here in UK "my neighbour/friend/relative got X" mentality

Modern pharms can do miracles used wisely, used inappropriately we get the horrid spectre of drug resistant nasties (I'm no bio-chem but I'm looking for Xanthine to bak me up here...)

Xanthine, your comments please...

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted November 24, 2004 17:25      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm no bio-chem either, but isn't just a simply rule that your immune system is designed to -- to the best of its ability -- rid your body of all foreign substances and attempt to build an immunity to them -- including medications?

One would think that over-medication in the end would have the exact opposite effect desired.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted November 24, 2004 21:40      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Serenak:

Modern pharms can do miracles used wisely, used inappropriately we get the horrid spectre of drug resistant nasties (I'm no bio-chem but I'm looking for Xanthine to bak me up here...)

Xanthine, your comments please...

If you're taking germicidal drugs inappropriately then you will produce drug-resistant germs. THat's just good old evolution. You can do it on a petri-dish. I should know...I've been infecting my cultures right and left lately.

As far as allergic reactions go, your immune system will react to anything it perceives as foreign. It generally takes two exposures to develop an allergy. Once for your body to go "icky" and again for your body to go "Engage The Enemy!". However, an allergic reaction to anything is not guaranteed.

I could go on, but it's dinnertime.

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CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted November 25, 2004 06:27      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by drunkennewfiemidget:
rid your body of all foreign substances and attempt to build an immunity to them -- including medications?

One would think that over-medication in the end would have the exact opposite effect desired.

Again Xanthine and I think a couple of others would be more capable of answering that.

But I do know that the newer strains of staph are resistant to many antibiotics. The sickness evolves as fast as the medication get developed from what I can see.

Now the drugs are not literally shoved down people's throat. I have noticed though that people are looking more and more to meds to cure them of their ills. It has been more visible recently. I do of course remember "white rabbit' by Jefferson Airplane. I think that it was a precursor to what we see now. Are you feeling stressed about your life, depressed, stressed, cough, stomach ache? Hey did you know there is a pill for that? Oh, here is some stuff to conterbalance the side-effects, and here is something to counter the side-effects of those pills, ad nauseum.

That is what irks me. I understand that sometimes medicine is a necessary evil. It just seems that over the last few years the useful drugs are taking a back seat to trivial meds that often are as harmful as helpful. And of the various Vioxx type stories. FDA approved but it increases your chance of death two-fold. Does not sound like much of a cure to me.

--------------------
Does he know our big secret?
Has one of us confessed?
'Bout the wires circuits and motors
Buried in our chest

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted November 25, 2004 07:35      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
GET YOUR VICODIN, CIALIS AND VIAGRA NOW! [Eek!]
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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted November 25, 2004 12:57      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
One of the issues in all this "there's a pill for that" is that most of these meds do not cure anything. A "cure" is when the problem goes away for good. These drugs are treatments - they control your symptoms, but that's it. Stop the drug and your erectile dysfunction, anxiety, stress, dandruff, aches, pains, and itchy toes come back. This is good for Big Pharma because you're going to be stuck wiht their pill for a long time. This is kinda dangerous for you though because you're basically dumping a chemical into yourself that will change your body chemistry for long periods of time, and the consequences of this aren't known. More thorough testing can combat this, and on paper the FDA testing protocols are veyr thorough, but the FDA also has a fast-track system. This system was originally set up to get life-saving drugs on the market faster. It was used for AZT. It's been used for a variety of cancer drugs. It is also being ABUSED by Big Pharma.

Human bodies are complicated things. A little push in the wrong direction causes all kinds of problems. What works in a test tube or petri dish can be ineffective and dangerous is a human. Even the new designer drugs, which were formulated to target the specific proteins in the disease pathwya, can have side effects. Maybe one the break-down products is toxic (becuase your body will metabolize or try to metabolize anything you put into it - that's why so many of these drugs list liver and kidney damage as a side effect). Maybe the chemical interacts with other chemicals in unexpected ways. I've seen poeple who were very sick and getting sicker becasue their doctors were stuffing them so full of pills their purses looked like the inside of RiteAid. Maybe the chemical interacts with some other body system in a way that was unexpected, or in a way that will cause damage over time.

Another issue is that even though doctors know aboutt he hazards of over-medicating, Big Pharma offers some pretty big kick-backs to MDs and NPs who perscribe their drugs. This links the chain: person sees ad, person indentifies with symptoms, person goes to doctor and asks for pill, doctor perscribes pill. Person and person' insurance company shell out megabucks for person's pill. Pharmaceutical company passes some of those mega-bucks back to the doctors. Everybody's happy.

I hate meds. I have to be suffering pretty severely before I take a pill. My rule of thumb is this: if I have to ask myself whether or not I'm sick, I'm probably not.

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Serenak

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Icon 3 posted November 25, 2004 13:09      Profile for Serenak     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Gah!

All this talk about baaad DRUGS... It is all getting too horrid... Who's got the cosmic bong? (like maaannnn...)

"You've gotta give me something, I've got the fear on me...."
(I in Withnail and I)

[Wink]

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"So if you want my address - it's No. 1 at the end of the bar, where I sit with the broken angels, clutching at straws and nursing my scars..."

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spungo
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Icon 1 posted November 25, 2004 13:57      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Serenak:

"You've gotta give me something, I've got the fear on me...."
(I in Withnail and I)

[Wink]

"Give me a downer Danny, my brains capsizing, I've gone and f*cked my brain..."

"Change down man, find your neutral space. You've got a rush, it'll pass, be seated..." [Smile]

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AgingAmigaoid
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Icon 1 posted November 29, 2004 19:01      Profile for AgingAmigaoid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CommanderShroom:
You may go insane, but no more hot flashes! [shake head]

You're being too tame!

My favorites are:

Xenical (weight loss) "Side effects include flatulence with oily discharge, fecal urgency, fecal incontinence, fatty stool, oily spotting, and increased frequency of defecation"

Uhh.. Perhaps the weight loss is merely a side effect of always running to the nearest bathroom?

And

Propecia (Hair Growth) "side effects include decreased sex drive; decreased volume of ejaculate; trouble getting or keeping an erection and breast tenderness or enlargement."

Uhh... But I only want a full head of hair so I can get laid!

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted November 29, 2004 20:30      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I took Xenical one summer a few years ago. They gave me a one month supply free which I ended up not finishing because I went to work at a camp and just couldn't deal with the side effects (they really are as gross as they sound and I ruined a pair of shorts bleaching out the stains). Plus, what they don't tell you is that you have to get less than 1/3 of your calories from fat--a feat near to impossible at camp. What really clinched the deal was when I went to pick up my filled three-month prescription: the co-pay totaled slightly over $100--money that I didn't have at that point--so I left it there.

My late uncle was treated for Hodgkin's Disease about 14 years ago. As a result, he developed lupus, so he had to start medicating for that. The Hodgkin's came back after 12 years (his doctors had declared him officially in remission the year prior--how ironic!) so he had to start treating for that again. Add into that treatment for bi-polar (manic depressive) disorder to make my uncle one medicated guy! He had to have his meds though or his health would deteriorate. He died last October due to heart failure probably accelerated by all of the chemo and radiation he received while treating his Hodgkin's.

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Groggle
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Icon 1 posted November 29, 2004 21:21      Profile for Groggle     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
There's a couple of interesting themes emerging here ...

First - the notion of necessary medication. There seems to be an overall unease or even outright mistrust of the medical system being expressed. (I think it applies equally whether we are talking about Canada, the US, the UK or Australia). IMO, this is an offshoot of the Western civilization's fascination with "hard science". It has bred a view of the human body as a form of machine that can "fixed" using the biochemical equivalent of "injector cleaner" products for your car. This is where aboriginal and oriental healing traditions may have a great deal to teach us.

Second is the marketing of drugs. The marketing of medications - especially prescription meds directly to the consumer is a giant ethical question mark. I need access to clear, relevant information about the treatments I am on, not marketing schpeel. I think the drug companies need to have their marketing departments truncated the same way that Tobacco companies have (at least in Canada...). By all means, market to the clinicians - but all I _ever_ want to see is a clear statement of what the drug is about. The consumer (like me at least), no matter how intelligent and 'well informed' is not a clinician, and really should be cautious asking for any particular medication by name. As a patient, it is my responsibility to go back to my doctor when there is a problem, or unexpected effect (even if its known, and I think it's too severe) Direct marketing to consumers is just bad news.

The last notion that I see emerging is that of informed consent. Anytime you are prescribed a medication, talk to your doctor about it. You have a right to know what to expect. I'm on medication for a long term condition, and every time I see my doctor, I make good and sure to follow up on all the things that the medication I'm on does. I also spent a couple of months investigating both the proposed course of treatment and comparing it with the alternatives - I felt it was necessary to make sure that everything made sense to me. When we discussed the plan on a second appointment, I had a small handful of questions that were clear and to the point - and helped us both make a decision that was mutually beneficial.

(BTW - this last point is especially important when you are talking about psychotropic medication - the chemistry of the brain is barely understood at all - it would be folly to assume that any of those drugs (Prozac, Welbutrin etc.) are safe or "well-known" in their effects - they still "backfire" quite often)

As patients, we need to work with our doctors in the treatment of any condition. If we go in and demand that they just "fix us", it's just won't work. As others have observed, the human body is far too complex to treat as a mere mechanical device. Our doctors need feedback on how a treatment is progressing, and we need to be active in providing it. Otherwise, we reduce our doctors to "mere mechanics", and they will respond in kind, and treat our bodies as "mere machines".

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted November 30, 2004 04:26      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Nice one, Groogle.

I'll add two more problems: marketing of drugs to pharmacists and physicians through gifts (that are not only free samples!) and pharmacists offering low rent to physicians if they prescribe a lot of drugs. I don't know for you, but I see that as ethical problems, as both tend to increase drug prescriptions even when there would be other options.

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