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Author Topic: Morality in Society
csk

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Icon 1 posted September 23, 2004 20:38      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well, who else would I choose to be the butt of my jokes?

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 23, 2004 22:07      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by csk:
Well, who else would I choose to be the butt of my jokes?

Don''t be a smart-arse.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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csk

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Icon 1 posted September 23, 2004 22:39      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Somehow I saw that wise crack coming.

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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted September 23, 2004 22:57      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't believe that rap music was inherently violent or antisocial. Artists from the 1980's included: Run-DMC, L. L. Cool J., DJ Jazzy Jeff & The Fresh Prince, and Tone Loc.

However, rap currently has the highest profile for condoning antisocial behavior, but that was not always the case.

As for the disenfranchised with no outlet, I doubt white-trash racists in New York City get to speak their minds freely. Would anybody support Klu Klux Klan rappers with music about burning crosses and hanging ni**ers from the trees?

Today's "reality" shows are unimpressive. The typical goal seems to be "act like a friend, then stab the other guy in the back when the opportunity presents itself."

Violence and antisocial behavior is far more acceptable than it was 20 years ago. I don't think that's a good thing.

When imitation includes having a large number of sexual partners, is it a surprise that AIDS is a problem?

Of course, my opinion is that children should be raised by their parents instead of cable TV and peers in the streets.

Debate or choose arguments to make based on which affects the welfare of society the most:

As far as I'm concerned, there are more important issues than abortion and pornography/obscenity. Thousands of people have lost their jobs and their pensions, while small investors lost millions upon millions of dollars, all because CEO's are doing some "creative accounting" and stuffing their pockets.

What happens when corrupt CEO's cause all Americans to suffer (well, maybe it's only 99%)? The damage to society from the choice made by pregnant, unwed teenagers is insignificant by comparison.

But then again, some will say that the "murder" committed by a scared, pregnant girl is a far greater moral crime than the CEO who steals $200 million and leaves thousands in financial ruin.

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted September 24, 2004 00:12      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
I don't believe that rap music was inherently violent or antisocial. Artists from the 1980's included: Run-DMC, L. L. Cool J., DJ Jazzy Jeff & The Fresh Prince, and Tone Loc.

Pretty selective mainstream over produced 'artists'.....what about Ice T, NWA and Ice cube?

quote:

However, rap currently has the highest profile for condoning antisocial behavior, but that was not always the case.

All kinds of positve stuff, if you look. Check out the new Ma$e

quote:

As for the disenfranchised with no outlet, I doubt white-trash racists in New York City get to speak their minds freely.

Have you ever been to NYC....it is pretty multicultural and diverse. If your gonna generalize, pick Alabama or somewhere

quote:


Would anybody support Klu Klux Klan rappers with music about burning crosses and hanging ni**ers from the trees?


Check out some 2pak....you'd be surprised what he wrote about.

quote:


Today's "reality" shows are unimpressive. The typical goal seems to be "act like a friend, then stab the other guy in the back when the opportunity presents itself."


Don't watch 'em if you don't like 'em. THere is tons of crap on TV. This stuff is like a car wreck....no one wants to see but every one looks.

quote:


Violence and antisocial behavior is far more acceptable than it was 20 years ago. I don't think that's a good thing.

The lifting of the Assault Ban should help that

quote:


When imitation includes having a large number of sexual partners, is it a surprise that AIDS is a problem?


HIV/AIDS is a new disease. I think people in general are less promiscuous now than ever.

quote:

Of course, my opinion is that children should be raised by their parents instead of cable TV and peers in the streets.

Kids don't need to be sheltered from TV or their peers. The need to socialise and learn about their world and enviornment, but yes, the parents should monitor what their kids are exposed to in general. NOT JUST TV.


quote:
Debate or choose arguments to make based on which affects the welfare of society the most:

As far as I'm concerned, there are more important issues than abortion and pornography/obscenity. Thousands of people have lost their jobs and their pensions, while small investors lost millions upon millions of dollars, all because CEO's are doing some "creative accounting" and stuffing their pockets.


It breaks my heart to see people losing jobs/investments. Why doesn't the gov't help? Oh yeah, they are to busy killing people overseas. [Roll Eyes]

quote:

What happens when corrupt CEO's cause all Americans to suffer (well, maybe it's only 99%)?

They become President [Big Grin]

quote:

The damage to society from the choice made by pregnant, unwed teenagers is insignificant by comparison.

I hate babies too. They ruin everything [Roll Eyes]

quote:

But then again, some will say that the "murder" committed by a scared, pregnant girl is a far greater moral crime than the CEO who steals $200 million and leaves thousands in financial ruin.

Um, so stealing is more of a crime than killing?

ASM65816, you have the attention span of a goldfish. I had to chop my replies to your ramblings into a billion little responses. How about the next time, you pick one topic and we can all debate that......then we can move onto the next....and so on....and so on...

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(!) (T) = 8-D

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Callipygous
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MTB Babe - It's good to see you again!

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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Icon 12 posted September 24, 2004 06:07      Profile for MTB Babe   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thanks everybody!! Its good to be back! I know I'm the LAST person who you'd think would fall behind on posting butt I'll make up for it [Big Grin]

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Samir: No one in this country can ever pronounce my name right. It's not that hard: Na-ee-ana-jaad. Nayanajaad.
Michael Bolton: Yeah, well at least your name isn't Michael Bolton.

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ASM65816
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Icon 4 posted September 24, 2004 10:46      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If "the media" doesn't really change the morals and habits of society:

Why is there practically a ban on glamorizing tobacco, or portraying smoking as cool?

It looks like a double-standard:
* Tobacco: People will do it if it's glamorized and cool -- that's Bad.
* Antisocial Behavior: People won't do just because it's glamorized and cool -- that makes it OK.

Double-standards are morally and ethically bad.

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted September 24, 2004 11:16      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hey, Cap'n... what's up with the ad hominem attacks on ASM? So apparently you don't agree with him, but that's no reason to resort to attacking him instead of his arguments.

As far as what you've been saying, ASM, I totally hear you. One of the cases that we discussed in my Ethics in Communication class at university concerned a woman who was raped and murdered (Kitty Someone-or-other, if I recall correctly) in the common courtyard of a gated community. The people who were home heard her cries for help, but they later told the police that they thought someone else would help or they just didn't want to get involved.

It's attitudes like that that have allowed our (USA) society to deteriorate to its current location. People don't want to get their hands dirty; it's easier to rationalize behaviors than to jump in with both feet and fight for morality and absolutes.

In my neck-of-the-woods, we hear a lot about PETA and the ASPCA fighting against the mistreatment of animals, but practically nothing against the mistreatment of human beings. Have we started to disrespect humanity? The ban against assault weapons has been (will be) lifted and people are celebrating. Why? Will they now be able to terminate the life of the neighbor they've always despised? When they're arraigned, will they sue the gun maker in civil court saying "You shouldn't have made such a powerful gun"? Don't laugh; it's been done before with other implements... even food.

As far as rates of promiscuity go, Vic, the Kinsey Institute would disagree with you there. Same with "Sex in America," the largest and most accurate study of sexual attitudes and behaviors in the US. Just step onto your local college campus and ask the students there--or go to the women's/sexuality centers--and ask them about the rate of multiple partners. You'll find that the rates have actually increased, not decreased. The social taboo against multiple partners has disappeared.

Remember the saying "If it feels good, do it"? The converse is true in today's society: If it doesn't feel good, don't do it. That actually may be part of our problem: We're basing our society on changeable feelings, not immutable facts or absolutes. If I don't like sex with guy A, I'll go have sex with guy B, whether I'm married to him or not. If I feel angry at my neighbor, I'll blow off his leg with a shotgun. If I don't feel like going to work today, I won't, even though my employer suffers from loss of productivity and my co-workers have to pick up the slack. True, if it feels good to help someone, I will, but too often, it doesn't feel good to help; it feels messy and difficult and even painful. Case in point: Instead of thoughtfully constructing an argument against ASM's thoughts, Cap'n Vic did what felt good and easiest and thus tore into ASM's character.

I haven't any great conclusion to this post except this: When it all boils down to it, "Love your neighbor as you love yourself" really has a lot of merit.

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Change the way you SEE, not the way you LOOK!

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted September 24, 2004 11:53      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
Hey, Cap'n... what's up with the ad hominem attacks on ASM? So apparently you don't agree with him, but that's no reason to resort to attacking him instead of his arguments......Instead of thoughtfully constructing an argument against ASM's thoughts, Cap'n Vic did what felt good and easiest and thus tore into ASM's character.

Well Ronnie, if you actually read my above post you'd see that first I attacked his arguements and then him.

Any-who, he has a bit of a history of being a troll and posting things that will start flame wars. But what seems to get me most about him is that his posts ramble from topic to topic with no connection (that I can see).

As I noted above, I invited him to post 'one topic at a time' for the sake of debate.

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Twinkle Toes
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Icon 3 posted September 24, 2004 13:55      Profile for Twinkle Toes   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
Why is there practically a ban on glamorizing tobacco, or portraying smoking as cool?

It looks like a double-standard:
* Tobacco: People will do it if it's glamorized and cool -- that's Bad.
* Antisocial Behavior: People won't do just because it's glamorized and cool -- that makes it OK.

All the media can do is their share. They're not saying that it's okay if people smoke for a reason other than media promotion, but that's a really big reason for people accepting it. If they restrict the promotion of tobacco in general, not as many people will take part. But people will smoke and do drugs whether they see commercials for it or not, even if a relative dies (I know [of] a lot of people like that). The media, for the most part, prohibits the advertising of drugs because, while there are a lot of people who are associated with them, it is their choice to destroy their own bodies but NOT their right to do so to others. And since there is scientific evidence that drugs have a negative impact on the body, they must protect the rights of non-smokers and 'non-druggies.'

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Mmmmrreow!

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted September 25, 2004 11:54      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
Hey, Cap'n... what's up with the ad hominem attacks on ASM? So apparently you don't agree with him, but that's no reason to resort to attacking him instead of his arguments......Instead of thoughtfully constructing an argument against ASM's thoughts, Cap'n Vic did what felt good and easiest and thus tore into ASM's character.

Well Ronnie, if you actually read my above post you'd see that first I attacked his arguements and then him.

Umm, Cap'n. It doesn't matter when you used the ad hominem attack. It matters that you used it at all. That fallacy effectively destroys the credibility associated with prior posts in the debate. I did read your posts, but taking yours at face value as I did ASM's (did not know he had a history of being a troll), he appeared to have views which shed a clear light on today's society, even if they weren't necessarily well-posited or well-written.

</subject, please?>

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted September 25, 2004 12:31      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
And your point is?

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(!) (T) = 8-D

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted September 25, 2004 15:55      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
People don't want to get their hands dirty; it's easier to rationalize behaviors than to jump in with both feet and fight for morality and absolutes.

But where do the absolutes come from? God? Which god? And what if you don't believe god exists at all (please, let's not go into that old debate here!)? Do moral absolutes even exist at all? What is morality anyways? I think we need to define that before we can discuss any perceived decay in our culture. What's moral according to oine religion or culture is not moral according to another. How are we supposed to pick a set of absolutes and then apply them to a nation as diverse as the US?

As far as the glorification of thugs goes, that one's as old as time. Robin Hood anyone? How about some old Greek mythology? As far as sexual mores go, which set are we abiding by and why? A lot of the old rules went out the window when we stopped viewing women as chattel. For my part, I think that mongamy is the healthiest and best plan, but others may disagree and who am I to tell them they're wrong. I've never desired more than one man at a time, but that's not true for everyone.

Finally, morality, whatever that means, is something that comes from within you. It can't be imposed by society. Your morals are soemthing you have to own, otherwise you're just faking, which is about as immoral as it gets in my book.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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csk

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Icon 1 posted September 25, 2004 17:42      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
People don't want to get their hands dirty; it's easier to rationalize behaviors than to jump in with both feet and fight for morality and absolutes.

But where do the absolutes come from? God? Which god? And what if you don't believe god exists at all (please, let's not go into that old debate here!)? Do moral absolutes even exist at all? What is morality anyways? I think we need to define that before we can discuss any perceived decay in our culture. What's moral according to oine religion or culture is not moral according to another. How are we supposed to pick a set of absolutes and then apply them to a nation as diverse as the US?

Yep, this was exactly my point earlier in the thread. How do we integrate a set of individuals each with different moral standards into a society as a whole. Who decides the standards? Those with the most numbers? The wheel that squeaks the loudest? Those with the deepest pockets?

It's not easy, and I don't think anyone has found a successful answer yet. Well, Australia hasn't, and I would assess us as one of the most diverse countries around, certainly in the big cities, anyway.

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Serenak

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Icon 1 posted September 26, 2004 16:18      Profile for Serenak     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Now now fellow geeks, let us not get too over heated...

As I posted earlier and others have mentioned, probably the best moral guidance available boils down to "love thy neighbour as thyself/be excellent to one another/kicketh not on the way up..."

I'm a little less clear over where ethics fall - as I see it ethics cut in where moral dilemmas occur and are rather more personal.

Ethical/moral dilemma is of course the worst sort.

Imagine yourself in the following situation:
Your child has a life threatening disease, a convicted (and on death row) murderer has a tissue type match that offers your child a 50/50 chance of a complete cure, unfortunately the procedure that may save your child has a 90% chance of killing the donor (i.e. the murderer) however this murderer has always protested their innocence and now claims new evidence may clear their name but doctors tell you you must act within the next three months...

Where are the absolutes in this? Yes I've deliberately loaded the dice, but if these moral/ethical things were simple we wouldn't be discussing them would we?!?

Not trying to wind anyone up, just trying to focus on the point in hand...

Serenak

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"So if you want my address - it's No. 1 at the end of the bar, where I sit with the broken angels, clutching at straws and nursing my scars..."

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ASM65816
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Icon 4 posted September 27, 2004 09:23      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My argument hasn't been about difficult decisions.

My assertion is that the obvious "laws" of morality are being marginalized in society.

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted September 27, 2004 10:37      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Which laws are these and where did they spring from? If I'm going to follow a law I want to know who made it first.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted September 27, 2004 13:44      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Personally, most differences in "morals" aren't differences in "morals" but differences in beliefs about the natural world. It is accepted that killing another person is wrong under normal circumstances, now what a person is (Are only fully functional members of this soceity with an enough wealth to own a small conutry people? Are only members of a spesific religon people? Are undevloped babies people?) and what normal circumstances are (Is a man suffering in pain with no hope of a cure in his life time in normal circumstances? Is a person who just wants to die normal circumstances? Is a fatal accident normal circumstances? Is self defence normal circumstances?)...

I, personally, think that there are a common group of ideas about morality that are absolute, but other ideas, cultural influences, other moral laws and the like are what make these "universal ideas" such a grey topic.

The issue of Abortion for instance isn't a argument about whether or not it's right to kill, but the questions like "when does a collection of cells become a human life?", "Whose life is more imporant the injured mother's or childs" and so on... I think the general rule isn't what is really being debated.

This stuff is hard for all of us to muddle through, and even with my extream ego, I can't say that I have it all figured out. In general I follow the rUniversal Catagorical set forth by Kant in a number of his writtings: "Follow a maxium such that you could reasonably legislate as the universal legislative." Or put more simply: "And ye harm, none do as ye will." And when I get confused as to what is "right" I manage to do what I think best fits this at the time, and try to ajdust the next time if I screw up this time.

Just my humble 2.0*10^-2

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littlefish
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Icon 1 posted September 27, 2004 15:48      Profile for littlefish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
My argument hasn't been about difficult decisions.

My assertion is that the obvious "laws" of morality are being marginalized in society.

I've had a few and am in the mood for an argument, so I feel I should point out your logical flaws. What is obvious to you is not obvious tp the generral public as a whole. Chrisitans believe it is 'obvious' that Jesus is the son of god. Jews feel different, as do muslims pagans, and every other religion. I'm not trying to start a flame war, just pointing out that different people have different views. As it is, I find it 'obvious' that there is no proof for a higher being, and therefore think that religion is rubbish. However, I do not think that religion should be outlawed.

The second point is that laws are absolute, but morals are not. If you can think of one absolute 'law' of society that I can't think of a legitimate reason to ignore, I would be surprised.

for example:

Stealing is wrong, unless you are stealing food from a rich person that won't notice, and you would starve to death otherwise.

Killing is wrong, unless it is in self defense.

Incest is wrong, unless you and your sister are the last people on earth and to not have sex would mean the discontinuation of the human race.

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted September 27, 2004 16:05      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Fear not fish...You are not gonna get flamed. Our friend ASM65816 has a long history or starting threads or making rambling disjointed posts to start flame wars.

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(!) (T) = 8-D

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ASM65816
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Icon 4 posted September 27, 2004 16:35      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Instead of "exceptions", analyze values by creating a tree. For example:

1. Killing
- 1.A. Humans (that is "Killing humans."
- 1.B. Animals
- 1.C. Plants
2. Making False Statements
...
- - 1.A.1. Innocents
- - 1.A.2. Criminals
...
- - - 1.A.1.a. for Entertainment
- - - 1.A.1.b. to Prevent Loss of Lives to Others (ex. Spread of Deadly Disease)
- - - 1.A.1.c. to End Suffering (Terminally Ill)

I doubt anyone considers 1.A.1.a. "Killing Innocent Humans for Entertainment", or any of its subtrees to be good.

I consider the "effects" of acts as generally being more important than the type of act itself; however, this means morality requires the ability to understand the consequences of one's actions. A common example being the case for lying as good or evil, where falsehood spares the life of an innocent, and truth results in the death of an innocent at the hands of a criminal.

Even with effects as more important than the acts themselves, an act such as "Killing Innocent Humans for Entertainment" is essentially wrong in all cases, so it is simplified to "this act is wrong."

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 27, 2004 16:43      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by littlefish:
I've had a few and am in the mood for an argument

No you're not !
</python>

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted September 27, 2004 17:02      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by littlefish:
I've had a few and am in the mood for an argument

No you're not !
</python>

Your not arguing your just saying the oppiste of whatever I say!
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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 27, 2004 17:05      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by littlefish:
I've had a few and am in the mood for an argument

No you're not !
</python>

Your not arguing your just saying the oppiste of whatever I say!
No I'm not !

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged


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