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Author Topic: The Problem with Democracy
dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted September 16, 2004 21:49      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
GM, your arguments are so specious I hope you're just playing with us. Heroin was synthesized by a German chemist

Xanthine, you've clearly missed his point entirely.

He's just following the advice from Chapter 3 of 'Trolling for Dummies'.

1. Choose a key word from someones post,
2. re-define it in such a way that no real-world example could possibly fit your new definition
3. show that your opponents statements (which will be a real-world example) don't work with your re-definition.
4. then pretend you've entirely disproven your opponents argument.

Nicely said, good sir. [Smile]

However, I'll add a point or two to this:
"I don't want it to be illegal, therefore it isn't - that's the way it works."
(Thanks to Tut-an-Geek for hosting this - original .mov / original DivX [it would be better not to trash their already slow connection])
And I'm not quite sure what made me thing of it, but this came to mind.

--------------------
There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted September 16, 2004 22:31      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
GM, your arguments are so specious I hope you're just playing with us. Heroin was synthesized by a German chemist

Xanthine, you've clearly missed his point entirely.

He's just following the advice from Chapter 3 of 'Trolling for Dummies'.

1. Choose a key word from someones post,
2. re-define it in such a way that no real-world example could possibly fit your new definition
3. show that your opponents statements (which will be a real-world example) don't work with your re-definition.
4. then pretend you've entirely disproven your opponents argument.

[blush]
Oops, my bad. Musta been the lab fumes...

--------------------
And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted September 17, 2004 00:24      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The comment about sending the garbage to the sun was in jest, and I believe that is the only comment I made in this thread in jest. I'm not trolling. I only hijacked a thread of heated nature once for the purposes of amusment and see your reaction. I have since appologized countless times. I have not attacked anyone here personally in the course of this debate, and I would appreciate it if others (*looks at Vic and Dman*) would do the same for me. If not for respect of me, then for the general "karma" of the boards.

My points are:
First, green hug-a-tree people are trying to solve a problem that 1. may not exsist if indeed this is all part of a cyclic occurance, 2. if exsists may be out of our hands (due to the fact that I believe that a large part of the warming trend is caused by increased solar activity) and 3. will mostly likely not be as catastrophic if it does happen to come to pass.

Second, people argueing that man kind need to take responsibility for the effect we have on nature forget that we are part of nature. If we call Honey natural (that is if we call a substance that is created by one organism natural), then we must also realize that we too are just insignificant organisms and every little thing we create is also natural dispite how much we have to toy with different atoms to create it. I suppose this is just a semantics argument, and while unimportant to the over all debate the fact the people see the need to seperate man from nature is very disturbing.

Third, if the hug-a-tree people are right about XY and Z, the system is already starting to curve to solve the potential problems. More places than most of you realize are using green technology, for various reasons one of them being profits. If the hybrid car could compete and perform as well as any other car and could cost as little as the used cars we have, we vary well would use them because it would save us in gass costs. Maybe in a few years, who knows. It took time to go from horse to train, and from train to car... I don't think that enviroment is a political issue. This government has too many laws, and they aren't applied evenly now. Trying to legislate the "green movment" would not help anything.

On Moore, I was wrong about him having a private jet, but that doesn't change that he still has a host of personal wealth that he does throw arround, and that he still does accept WB's rides in supped up SUV and jet planes without complaint -- whilist everyone else who owns an SUV is raping the planet or some such.

I know that Gore does have a personal Jet, and I made a leap that Moore did as well. That being said the main point still stands, even if the jets are provided by production companies and such.

I see no contradiction in the points above, if there be some I welcome you to point them out.

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littlefish
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Icon 1 posted September 17, 2004 00:51      Profile for littlefish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
OK, I can't be bothered trawling the thread for the relevant quotes, but I am intrigued by what people think are laws the government should pass. Mandatory recycling? Higher tax? Greater research on "renewable" resources.

In some cases, recycling is not the answer. I'm sure I read somewhere that resmelting glass takes more energy than making it from the raw material due to purification issues.

Taxing fuel may make people use less, but it also makes them bitch a lot and vote for the other guy. Unfortunately people seem to have the attitude that they wan't a cleaner environment, but aren't willing to pay for it.

FInally, people seem to ignoring the effect of these alternative fuel supplies. It is possible that the added drag of wind turbines could disrupt traditional air currents and cause massive climate change. Changing the albedo of the earth with solar panels may cause global cooling, as it negates the greenhouse effect.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 17, 2004 00:58      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
However, I'll add a point or two to this:
"I don't want it to be illegal, therefore it isn't - that's the way it works."

I love it !

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go home and mast.... um, go home and read a book, or something.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 17, 2004 01:25      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by littlefish:

Taxing fuel may make people use less, but it also makes them bitch a lot and vote for the other guy. Unfortunately people seem to have the attitude that they wan't a cleaner environment, but aren't willing to pay for it.

Well, if the US was to reduce their military spending to 'only' 1/3 of the worlds total (instead of almost half ) that would free up about $US 225,000,000,000 each year to spend on alternative energy research.

Call me an optimist if you will, but I reckon with about a weeks worth of that money, and a few halfway decent engineers, I could put together a pretty good hydrogen car.

And it wouldn't cost the taxpayer an extra penny.

Then with the next weeks worth of research money.........

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted September 17, 2004 02:22      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
GameMaster unlike some other people here I do not think you are a troll, and neither are you an idiot, you actually appear to be quite bright. However you have no idea how to think about a problem or construct an argument logically, so your posts, which worryingly must reflect the way you think, are very often an incoherent mish mash of prejudice, opinion, and not particularly accurate facts, none of which you seem able to distinguish from each other, and all stated with an admirable if hugely misplaced self confidence.

It worries me because thinking as ill disciplined as this has the potential to land you in real trouble. As with democracy, logic will not lead you to the promised land, but abandoning it will surely lead you to a much worse place. So may I make some serious suggestions.
  • Have a little more humility about your opinions. Be prepared to have your mind changed, or all argument is just game to win and a waste of time.
  • Read a good quality newspaper regularly, at least once weekly for the next 6 months.
  • Read an introduction to philosophy or this book if you can find it, to learn how to distinguish good from specious arguments, and how to think and argue logically yourself.
Finally here is one tip to start you off (from Aristotle as it happens) - attack the argument not the man, so it doesn't matter whether that guy has a private jet or not. Likewise insulting Greens or environmentalists as "tree huggers" does nothing to further your own argument.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted September 17, 2004 04:42      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Callypigous, we can always count on you for saying hard truth nicely. Well said, once more.

GM, I used to put up arguments the way you do: in a jest. And believe me, it's wrong. I had to retract myself countless times before I learned to check the facts before stating something I somewhat recalled of. (And I stil slip some unchecked data every once in a while.)

As a single example, your statement uncertainty == fear, is wrongly derived from a non-related fact. You took it from FUD - "Fear, uncertainty and doubt," a tactic used by some software makers in order to prevent people buying someone else's product before they pull out their own. Notice how the original source doesn't state any equality between the concepts.

On the other hand, any basic course on project management will show you that uncertainty == risk as TFD said. That is, there are some things we have no control on, but still need to take into account to do our planning. Those thing may go as planned, they can go better, they can go worse. If they go worse, we may have to make around, or our whole planning will be derailed. That's why people who wants to lead projects for a living take risk management courses - in order to have some tools to help them when things will go wrong. Cause if there's somethig we can be sure of, it's that something will go wrong at some point.

I'm not ready to play my life and the future of the world saying that the changes in climate are natural and will revert to normal without us changing our ways. So I think we should do something, even if it cost us more for now. What about you?

--------------------
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littlefish
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Icon 1 posted September 17, 2004 05:32      Profile for littlefish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Well, if the US was to reduce their military spending to 'only' 1/3 of the worlds total (instead of almost half ) that would free up about $US 225,000,000,000 each year to spend on alternative energy research.

Call me an optimist if you will, but I reckon with about a weeks worth of that money, and a few halfway decent engineers, I could put together a pretty good hydrogen car.

Call me a pessismist, but I don't think you could. Lots of people are already working on useful hydrogen power, but very little useful technology has come from it. Of course, that is still irrelevant unless you can get a clean and cheap supply of hydrogen (instead of electrolysis, which requires electricity, usually from dirty power stations).

Finally, hydrogen is not a zero emissions fuel, despite what you may read. Burning hydrogen produces water vapour, which is a very potent greenhouse gas. Might this not cause a runaway greenhouse effect if everyone was spewing it into the atmosphere from their hydrogen powered cars?

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spungo
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Icon 1 posted September 17, 2004 06:40      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by littlefish:
Finally, hydrogen is not a zero emissions fuel, despite what you may read. Burning hydrogen produces water vapour, which is a very potent greenhouse gas. Might this not cause a runaway greenhouse effect if everyone was spewing it into the atmosphere from their hydrogen powered cars?

Wouldn't it just rain a bit more?

--------------------
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Icon 1 posted September 17, 2004 08:23      Profile for Number 2608     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by littlefish:
Burning hydrogen produces water vapour, which is a very potent greenhouse gas.

Buring hydrocarbons also produces a fair amount of water vapour, along with other nasty things - from the AA (UK), which tends to be pretty pro-car.
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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 17, 2004 08:38      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by littlefish:
quote:
Well, if the US was to reduce their military spending to 'only' 1/3 of the worlds total (instead of almost half ) that would free up about $US 225,000,000,000 each year to spend on alternative energy research.

Call me an optimist if you will, but I reckon with about a weeks worth of that money, and a few halfway decent engineers, I could put together a pretty good hydrogen car.

Call me a pessismist, but I don't think you could. Lots of people are already working on useful hydrogen power, but very little useful technology has come from it.

/me doubts if there's been $US 4*10^9 spent on hydrogen research in the last century


Of course, that is still irrelevant unless you can get a clean and cheap supply of hydrogen (instead of electrolysis, which requires electricity, usually from dirty power stations).

Ah, so now we're talking about the next weeks worth of research money [Wink]


Finally, hydrogen is not a zero emissions fuel, despite what you may read. Burning hydrogen produces water vapour, which is a very potent greenhouse gas. Might this not cause a runaway greenhouse effect if everyone was spewing it into the atmosphere from their hydrogen powered cars?

I think you're clutching at straws there littlefish.

How much water vapour are we talking about here, compared to, say, the total evaporation from the worlds oceans?
And how long would the extra vapour stay in the atmosphere before it precipitated out as ... well ... precipitation?

Ok, so there's bound to be localised effects, increased humidity levels in major traffic areas, maybe increased rainfall downwind from population centres, nothing in life is free.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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littlefish
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Icon 1 posted September 17, 2004 08:40      Profile for littlefish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Wouldn't it just rain a bit more?

It might. Or it might destroy the entire planet. Why is it OK it blithely assume that pumping out CO2 is bad, but water vapour isn't? CO2 is naturally occuring and relatively inert, same as water. Won't more algae grow in the seas and hoover up the CO2? It might, but then again it might destroy the entire planet. My point is that we don't know what churning out huge quantities of anything might do, but we go ahead anyway because we all love using power.

It has also been postulated that the extra water will cause extra clouds when it condenses in the atmosphere. This could block the sun and cause global cooling, plunging us into another ice-age. Of course, these are just theories, same as all the rest.

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Cap'n Vic

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let me say thiss. honey is natural. bees make honey...the word bullet itself starts with teh letter b.

b = bee...so bullets are natural. bullets can't hurt anyone, even those stoopid tree huggers

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(!) (T) = 8-D

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 17, 2004 09:22      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by littlefish:
It has also been postulated that the extra water will cause extra clouds when it condenses in the atmosphere. This could block the sun and cause global cooling, plunging us into another ice-age.

Ah, but that's easily fixed, we just set up big electric heaters to keep us warm. And we feed them with electricity from coal-fired power stations, to produce lots of that lovely CO2 to create a greenhouse effect to counter-act the cooling.

<sings>
There's a hole in the bucket....
</sings>

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted September 17, 2004 09:40      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
let me say thiss. honey is natural. bees make honey...the word bullet itself starts with teh letter b.

b = bee...so bullets are natural. bullets can't hurt anyone, even those stoopid tree huggers

I never argued that natural things couldn't cause harm... Mushrooms are natural by all the conotation and denotations you ascribe to, but there are some mighty dangerous mushrooms out there. Milk is natural in the same way that honey is, but too much of it will kill you.

Too much of anything is bad for humans and bad for the earth, the argument is where that line is ... How much comfort do we sacrifice to play it safe, and what are the ramifications of starting to play it safe overnight? That is the real debate, yes? no?

Cali, I didn't atack Moore beyond asking why the messaenger doesn't act as if he believes his own message. It's like Kerry talking about the "rest of us" when he's married into money and making a lot of money for showing up to vote once since his presidential campaign Its a matter of his personal actions showing us that he either doesnt believe what he is saying or doesnt feel as passonately as he portrays There is a huge diconect from what they say and what they practice

(appologies for lack of punctuation in that last paragraph shcool computer keyboard is goofing up windows problem)

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted September 17, 2004 09:54      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
*sings* Your a right wing nut job......

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Icon 1 posted September 17, 2004 10:47      Profile for Neville     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
The hybrid cars don't have the torque of an SUV or the speed of current compact cars. Anyone have the gass milage (freeway and street) numbers and other specs on the Pris or other hybrid car (max speed, max torque, max acceleration)? I'd love to see them weighed against our Acura and CRV. If we're not able to carry the stuff we need to carry, or sacrifice performance for a minor improvment in gass effecency then it's not good trade off.

Toyota Prius 2004

ENGINES/TRANSMISSIONS
1,497cc petrol engine: 57kW (76bhp) at 5,000 rpm; 115Nm (85 lb ft) torque at 4,000 rpm.
500 Volt electric motor: 50kW (67bhp); 400Nm (295 lb ft) torque at 0 - 1,200rpm.
Combined: 84kW (112bhp) at more than 52mph; 478Nm (353 lb ft) torque at below 22mph.

DIMENSIONS
Luggage capacity (seats up): 408 litres

PERFORMANCE, FUEL CONSUMPTION
0-60 10.6 seconds;
top speed 106 mph;
combined mpg: 65.7;
CO2 emissions: 104 g/km

Honda CRV 2002

ENGINES/TRANSMISSIONS
1,998cc petrol: 110kW (148bhp) at 6,500rpm/192 Nm (142 lb ft) torque at 4,000 rpm/188 Nm (139 lb ft) torque at 3,000 rpm.

DIMENSIONS
Luggage capacity (seats up): 628 litres

PERFORMANCE, FUEL CONSUMPTION
AND CO2 EMISSIONS
5-speed manual:
0-60 9.8 seconds;
top speed 110mph;
combined mpg 31.0;
CO2 emissions 216g/km;

4-speed automatic:
0-60 11.6 seconds;
top speed 104mph;
combined mpg 30.4;
CO2 emissions 220g/km;


Ford Mondeo
ENGINES/TRANSMISSIONS
1.8 16v Duratec-HE petrol E3: 1,798cc chain-cam petrol: 92kW (125PS) at 6,000rpm / 170Nm (125 lb ft) torque at 4,500rpm.

DIMENSIONS
Luggage capacity (luggage area only): 500 litres.

PERFORMANCE, FUEL CONSUMPTION
AND CO2 EMISSIONS
0-60: 10.6 seconds;
top speed: 127mph;
combined mpg: 37.2;
CO2 emissions: 182g/km


Honda Accura TSX
From Honda's site - these don't appear to be sold in Europe

ENGINES/TRANSMISSIONS
2.4 liter petrol: 200-hp @ 6800 rpm/166 lbs-ft Torque @ 4500 rpm

DIMENSIONS
Luggage capacity (seats up): 13.0 cu. ft. (approx 370 litres)

FUEL CONSUMPTION
Manual: 22/29 mpg
Automatic: 23/32 mpg

Personally, I think the Prius stacks up pretty well, particularly as a commuter car. Yes there are trade-offs, but they go both ways, and the mpg savings are not insignificant. Why anyone wants to sit on a two litre engine in rush hour beats me.

Plus the model range is starting to stretch out (Honda Insight, Civic Hybrid, Accord Hybrid...) so there should soon be a hybrid model to meet most needs.

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Cap'n Vic

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As mentioned before, I have driven the Toyota Prius and was very impress with how much punch it had both off the line and going up hill. If you didn't know it was a hybrid you'd never have guessed.

The lack of engine noise is a bit odd though. I'd buy one.

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(!) (T) = 8-D

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littlefish
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Icon 1 posted September 17, 2004 12:04      Profile for littlefish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I do believe I saw something on the telly a while back about electric dragsters. Big electric motors have monster torque and can do a good 1/4 mile. The problem comes with the weight of the batteries and handling the current without bursting into flames.
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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 17, 2004 15:00      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
I didn't atack Moore beyond asking why the messaenger doesn't act as if he believes his own message.

Actually, what you're really doing is criticising him for not being fanatically devoted to your charicature of his beliefs.

Case in point: the SUV story.

The guy is on a promotional tour organised by his publishers.

His Publishers arrange everything

He turns up at the airport, they say "this way to the plane", and lo ! it's a Lear Jet.

Only a fanatical nutbag would cross his arms and say "No thanks, I'd rather walk". He's got appointments in several cities, of course he's going to fly.

When the plane arrives at the other end, the publishers say "We have cars waiting for you and your team" and lo ! They're SUVs.

Again, only a fanatical nutbag would cross his arms and say "I'm not getting in that SUV, I'll just walk to town"

Because you believe him to be a fanatical nutbag, and he doesn't behave that way, you accuse him of hypocrisy. But it's not his beliefs he's failing to live up to, it's your extreme distortion of them.

Moore has never said "I'd rather walk than get into an SUV" - quite the contrary, I'm pretty sure some of his TV shows have portrayed him getting around in one, or a big old bus (which is even worse environmentally). They make a lot of sense when you're wandering around the country with a film crew.

Moore has never advocated poverty, or said "Anyone who's got more than $X dollars should give all their money away". And yet somehow that's what the Right expect any successful lefty to do, throw all the money out a window in some grand gesture. And if they don't, then you dismiss them as hypocrits.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted September 17, 2004 16:30      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
Cali, I didn't atack Moore beyond asking why the messaenger doesn't act as if he believes his own message. It's like Kerry talking about the "rest of us" when he's married into money and making a lot of money for showing up to vote once since his presidential campaign etc

GM, you should listen to what my first post said. You are repeating the same logical error, namely attacking the man rather than his argument.

To expand on that, representative democracy is founded on the idea that someone, (whether a congressman, senator, or president), can speak for, and care for all he represents, whether or not they voted for him. If a person can only represent the class he was born into, then nobody is fit for any public office. Incidentally GWB, despite his Aww shucks down home media persona, did not himself exactly followed the Abe Lincoln log cabin to White House route either, so even if I believed it relevant, I still cannot understand your beef with Kerry.

Secondly as to jet travel, if you are in politics, or indeed the public eye, and actually wish to influence public opinion, rapid travel by jets is going to be something you do, whether or not you believe it a good thing. You live in the world that exists, even if you believe it could be better ordered. That is not hypocrisy, which incidentally, I believe is much over rated as a vice. Only very dull people have no contradictions in their lives and/or personalities.

But fundamentally I believe these questions are largely irrelevant. In politics, I would rather vote for a bad man with the right ideas, than a saint who is a fool. So deal with the arguments not the personalities.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

Posts: 2922 | From: Brighton - UK | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
ASM65816
SuperBlabberMouth!
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Icon 1 posted September 18, 2004 09:39      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Economics.

As long as "x" is much cheaper than "y", people are going to buy "x".

1. Cutting edge technology tends to be rather expensive and has very limited production and support. Note: I believe the 2004 Prius is touted as "third-generation electric-gas hybrid powertrain technology."

2. Scrapping a $10,000 investment (eg. a car) for a 97% loss and buying a $10,000 replacement which performs the exact same function is unacceptable for nearly all consumers.

Recent News Clipping:
By 2006, Toyota and Honda hybrid models alone could account for 10 percent of the more than 2 million mid-size passenger vehicle sales in the U.S.
(The Prius was introduced in 1997 in Japan, then 2000 for the U.S. market.)

Recent News Clipping:
Snarled traffic is costing travelers in the 85 biggest U.S. cities a whopping 3.5 billion hours a year, up from 700 million two decades ago.

Driving along at 6 miles per hour is Horribly inefficient.

However, a hybrid car can still get close to its rated "City MPG" as long as the driver doesn't try running the air-conditioning the whole time.

I'd like to see the MPG ratings/studies for: Start/Stop Driving, one quarter mile between stops, average speed 5 mph, Diesel Hybrid _vs_ Gasoline.

Hydrogen fuel is impractical compared to simple, reliable savings which can be easily produced by hybrid vehicles in traffic-jammed cities.

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

Posts: 1035 | From: Third rock from sun. | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted September 18, 2004 10:05      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
[Incidentally GWB, despite his Aww shucks down home media persona, did not himself exactly followed the Abe Lincoln log cabin to White House route either, so even if I believed it relevant, I still cannot understand your beef with Kerry.

Yeah, I'm not sure Bush set foot in a public school or poor neighborhod (unless it was to buy drugs) until he became a politician.

I'm just glad that my 2003 income was so low I got a full refund. None of my money went to that fiasco in Iraq, though this year that won't be the case. :/

Posts: 7670 | From: the lab | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged


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