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Author Topic: Church says girl's communion not valid
Bibo
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Icon 2 posted August 19, 2004 18:33      Profile for Bibo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
BRIELLE, New Jersey (AP) -- An 8-year-old girl who suffers from a rare digestive disorder and cannot eat wheat has had her first Holy Communion declared invalid because the wafer contained no wheat, violating Roman Catholic doctrine.

Now, Haley Waldman's mother is pushing the Diocese of Trenton and the Vatican to make an exception, saying the girl's condition should not exclude her from the sacrament, which commemorates the Last Supper of Jesus Christ before his crucifixion. The mother believes a rice Communion wafer would suffice.

"It's just not a viable option. How does it corrupt the tradition of the Last Supper? It's just rice versus wheat," said Elizabeth Pelly-Waldman.

Church doctrine holds that Communion wafers, like the bread served at the Last Supper, must have at least some unleavened wheat. Church leaders are reluctant to change anything about the sacrament.



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I'm pretty sure I had a rice wafer at my 1st communion, but it was not at a catholic church. Then again I think the last time I had communion was almost 18 years ago!


I can understand wanting to keep up with tradition but it's not like she substituted the bread with a gummi bear.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted August 19, 2004 19:10      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So, let me get this straight, The Almighty Creator Of The Earth and All The Heavens, who miraculously transforms the wine and wafer into blood and human flesh, is incapable of miraculously transforming a rice wafer?

/me pauses briefly to add yet another entry to my 'Things I dont understand about Christians' list, then wanders off.

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TMBWITW,PB

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Icon 1 posted August 19, 2004 19:19      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Things you don't understand about Roman Catholics, TFD. There are many branches of Christianity that don't think God does anything to the wafers and it's just a symbol. And there are others that say we don't know what the heck happens to the wafer, but we do it because we're supposed to.

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csk

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Icon 1 posted August 19, 2004 21:04      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm with you, Peebs, transubstantiation (belief that the wine and bread actually turn into Jesus body and blood) is a bizarre belief generally only held by Catholics. I mean, you don't hear people going around saying that the water we baptise people with turns into the actual water Jesus was baptised with, do you?

So if one believes in transubstantiation, why does it matter what the symbol is (up to a point, of course)? And if it's only symbolic, then it definitely doesn't matter. Crazy... [Roll Eyes]

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Chesty
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Icon 1 posted August 19, 2004 21:29      Profile for Chesty         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Colossians 2:8

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Religious ceremonies that were originally held as rememberances (so that we would not forget the power and mercy of God) have been taken to the level of some metaphysical oddness by a lot of religions, even though Paul warned of such things. - The Roman Catholic Church doesn't seem to care -


BUT - if you want to be Catholic you gotta be Catholic. All these people who want to change Catholicism to meet their needs and wants (because they think it's unreasonable) still think that the pope has the power to keep them out of heaven. If he has that power - do what he says. If the Catholic Church is wrong, then why do you seek their approval?

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neotatsu
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Icon 1 posted August 20, 2004 03:04      Profile for neotatsu     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hmmm... Someone is protesting Roman Catholocism?... Hmm.. Seems to me I've heard of something like that happening before... [Roll Eyes]

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spungo
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Icon 1 posted August 20, 2004 05:22      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by neotatsu:
Hmmm... Someone is protesting Roman Catholocism?... Hmm.. Seems to me I've heard of something like that happening before... [Roll Eyes]

Ah, you mean with that German dude from a while back... what was his name again?... ehm... Lex Luther - yeah, that was it! [Smile]

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted August 20, 2004 07:38      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by spungo:
quote:
Originally posted by neotatsu:
Hmmm... Someone is protesting Roman Catholocism?... Hmm.. Seems to me I've heard of something like that happening before... [Roll Eyes]

Ah, you mean with that German dude from a while back... what was his name again?... ehm... Lex Luther - yeah, that was it! [Smile]
We scots used to do a lot of it, but we've reformed recently.

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David Rogers
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Icon 1 posted August 20, 2004 08:45      Profile for David Rogers     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I am Catholic and I am aware that a woman in a nearby parish has the same condition. As I understand it, she is able to recieve communion by drinking the wine instead of eating the bread and this satisfies both church doctrine and the restrictions of her condition. I wonder if this solution has been explained to them or not.

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DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted August 20, 2004 11:07      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I was brought up Catholic, and for them this is not symbolic. It is called transubstantiaton, meaning in their belief system, the bread and wine are literally changed into the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Because when the priest holds them up before the congregation, Jesus is supposed to come down from Heaven and inhabit the wafers and the wine. He is supposed to be sacrificing Himself again at every mass. I don't like to offend Catholics, but it truly is a perversion of what Jesus was doing at the last supper, and it spits in His face by saying that His suffering on the cross was not enough, and that He must do so again and again. The broken bread and the wine are only symbols of His sacrifice. The only true requirement that is biblical about the bread and the wine is that they be unleavened, meaning without fermentation. It was originally a rememberence ceremony for believers, and it was not done at every meeting.

Edit: Another thing they don't get right is the wine, since it is supposed to be non-alcohalic wine. So why are they so hung up about the bread being right when they don't get the wine right? [Confused]

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Aves Corax
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Icon 1 posted August 20, 2004 20:46      Profile for Aves Corax     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CrawGator:
So why are they so hung up about the bread being right when they don't get the wine right? [Confused]

The same reason Rome refuses to change a lot of stupid little doctrines like that: tradition. I mean, the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches picked fights over all sorts of minor theological issues (including the kind of bread used in communion) back in the good old days before Protestantism, and seeing as the Pope is never ever wrong...

I honestly have no idea how Catholic theologians can maintain both faith and sanity after becoming well versed in all of weird little beliefs that have been introduced into church dogma over the centuries. Especially seeing as there are blatantly secular origens for a good many of them.

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Tech Angel
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Icon 2 posted August 21, 2004 13:47      Profile for Tech Angel     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
A slightly different take on Famous Druid's post:

"So, let me get this straight, The Almighty Creator of The Earth and All The Heavens,"... who is supposed to be infinitely more loving, forgiving, and compassionate than we mere imperfect humans, would deny a child something He mandates because of a medical condition which He bestowed on her?

Personally, I just can't bring myself to believe in a God who is less than I am. But the God described by so many Christians (as well as other faiths) seems so much more... well, petty... than I could ever be. We're told that God created man in His own image. But all too often, I think we tend to create God in our image - that is, we see Him as a super-magnified version of how we perceive ourselves, as opposed to what Jesus described - and exemplified.

Honestly... could you see Jesus telling this child, "Sorry kid, you don't qualifiy for this sacrament"?

~ TA

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MacManKrisK

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Icon 4 posted August 21, 2004 22:35      Profile for MacManKrisK     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tech Angel:
Honestly... could you see Jesus telling this child, "Sorry kid, you don't qualifiy for this sacrament"?

Amen, sister!! (and I really mean it, too)

You hit the nail on the head there. The message Jesus was trying to convey to us was just too damn simple. "Love one another." We make it so hard because people seem to be addicted to rules and regulations. I guess in a way it's easier to say "if you do this and this and this and this, and don't do this or this or this or that then you'll go to heaven." It's too bad it doesn't work that way. And, don't we all know that Jesus wouldn't give a crap about weather it was a rice wafer or a wheat one?

The Apostle Paul wrote something to the tune of "we are not under The Law, for in love The Law is fullfilled." Or to put it in a slightly more plain-english way: Do whatever you do out of true inner love, for then you will always do that which is right and good and just. That's what Jesus did, and that's what we Christians have been instructed to do. It's a shame that so many seem to have missed the memo and continue on living blindly under the rules and regulations.

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Tech Angel
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Icon 1 posted August 21, 2004 23:54      Profile for Tech Angel     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MacManKrisK:
We make it so hard because people seem to be addicted to rules and regulations. I guess in a way it's easier to say "if you do this and this and this and this, and don't do this or this or this or that then you'll go to heaven."

This is otherwise known as "conditional love", something we are all quite familiar with (both giving and receiving)...

quote:
Do whatever you do out of true inner love, for then you will always do that which is right and good and just.
...and this is unconditional love, which Jesus (and others) taught.

I almost feel that we have so mythologized those simple teachings over the centuries as to have lost their true meaning. We've buried the simple and beautiful underlying Truths beneath a gawdy facade of ritual and agenda to the point where they are often unrecognizable. It's such a shame, too, because the answers we so desperately seek are right there in front of us...but we can no longer see them.

~ TA

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csk

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Icon 1 posted August 22, 2004 02:22      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.
From 1 Corinthians 13.

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hardwarejunkie9
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Icon 10 posted August 22, 2004 14:08      Profile for hardwarejunkie9     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hmm... good points to all...

I think that Catholicism is pretty corrupt as it is. If you want the truth, the best place to probably find it is in a baptist or Church of Christ church because there is NO dogma, just scripture and interpretation

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted August 23, 2004 08:44      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Umm, but even then you can have problems. One of my good friends a few years ago attended a UCC (United Church of Christ) where his father--an atheist--was on the board of elders. My first college roommate was also UCC; she and her family didn't appear to live according to the Bible.

All that to say that every denomination has its problems--mine certainly does!--but you have to view it as a challenge... a sort of refining fire...compare what humans do to what God says to do and then do the latter. [Smile]

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DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted August 23, 2004 11:08      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You are right Rhonwyyn, you can have problems going to any church. The problem lies in the plain simple fact that we are all human, and humans have yet to get the love unconditionally message correct. I get it right sometimes, but it takes alot of effort.

When I first was converted, I went to a small independent Baptist church. The church was filled with people who believed people who are not baptist are not christian, and they shunned people that used to attend but don't anymore. Needless to say, it wasn't to long before I became shunned by them. I have also watched that church wither down to only six families over the past seven years. In fact it just recently lost a family, and it was wonderful being able to talk to them. It looks like, from their point of view, that another family will not be long behind them.

A church where the focus is the law will not grow except through intimidation and family ties. I think the only reason some people are the religion they are is because it is the religion they grew up in. The law was given to show it was not able to be kept. I am attending a church where the focus is Christ, and we are growing so much that we now need three Sunday morning services just to accomodate the parking.

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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia

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Tech Angel
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Icon 7 posted August 23, 2004 20:33      Profile for Tech Angel     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by hardwarejunkie9:
I think that Catholicism is pretty corrupt as it is. If you want the truth, the best place to probably find it is...

...within yourself. "The kingdom of heaven is within you."

This is a Geek forum, so if I might resort to a computer analogy... We're told God created us in His image. His software was already preinstalled within us on our hard drives, but instead most of us focus way too much on the hardware of life. We get bogged down with the physicalities, the circumstances, with all the stuff that's "out there" in the material world. We see ourselves as unique and individual computers, striving for maximum performance and vying for dominance. We define ourselves by our hardware capabilities and pride ourselves on the software we've installed -- software which usually corrupts our preinstalled image. But if we go within, we will find we're also networked to one incredible Server, and if we would simply ghost His image onto our hard drives, we could indeed love unconditionally.

The differences between the various religions, as I see it, is in the system requirements each claims is necessary to download that image. Some say you need to be running Catholicism XP. Others say we have to have at least Baptist 10.2. Some require a whopping 800 MB of prescribed service, and most fill up our hard drives with gigabytes of guilt. But in reality, His image is just a very simple program which would run on any machine... even a Timex Sinclair 1000.

~ TA

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted August 23, 2004 21:08      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Where does an open source operating system and software fit into that? A friend of a friend of mine has written her own OS to run on her machine - he uses it too...wonder how that would fit into these guidelines. I think Open Source is almost a religion in its own right. Debian best brings us into the fold of the One True Way (apt-get & Debian Free Software Guidelines).

/me cleanses himself in the purity of open source, clearing away the troubles of a long (12 hr) day...playing Oggs over HTTP via thttpd & ogg123, with the help of bash, screen, dillo & Firefox, too. This post is being done in links, and I'm sort of on #JoT with irssi, while conversing with a friend on Gaim. Oh yeah, and perl code is powering the Ogg (or MP3, depending on extension) playback....and is used to fetch e-mail, to be read with mutt.

I'm loving the Linux life!

:wq

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Allan
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Icon 1 posted August 23, 2004 23:08      Profile for Allan     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
...I think Open Source is almost a religion in its own right...

Yes, when I tried it I did nothing but pray for Linux Guru in a can [Smile]
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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted August 24, 2004 01:34      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
I think Open Source is almost a religion in its own right. Debian best brings us into the fold of the One True Way (apt-get & Debian Free Software Guidelines).

Damn straight !
When can we disciples of the One True Editor start burning those EMACS heritics at the stake?

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csk

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Icon 1 posted August 25, 2004 00:42      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
I think Open Source is almost a religion in its own right. Debian best brings us into the fold of the One True Way (apt-get & Debian Free Software Guidelines).

Damn straight !
When can we disciples of the One True Editor start burning those EMACS heritics at the stake?

Damn straight! That's the first religious statement of TFDs that I've agreed with so far [Wink]
 -

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csk

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Icon 1 posted August 25, 2004 06:12      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tech Angel:
The differences between the various religions, as I see it, is in the system requirements each claims is necessary to download that image. Some say you need to be running Catholicism XP. Others say we have to have at least Baptist 10.2. Some require a whopping 800 MB of prescribed service, and most fill up our hard drives with gigabytes of guilt. But in reality, His image is just a very simple program which would run on any machine... even a Timex Sinclair 1000.

Hey, that's my analogy! Except I used the Linux kernel as the "core beliefs", and the different distributions as a different flavour of the way that the beliefs are expressed and lived out.

And for my next trick, I will attempt to prove that God is open source via clever interpretation of John 1:18

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