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Author Topic: Rumsfeld - should he resign?
maven
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Icon 1 posted May 17, 2004 16:38      Profile for maven     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
typical. do you do this to everyone who brings a new idea to the table? label them a troll? how self-righteous. whatever, i'm not turning this into a flame war. just remember vic, you threw the first punch when you called moi a "moron." retarded bastard. fin.

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spungo
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Icon 1 posted May 17, 2004 16:44      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Here's a free tip: if you demonstrate an ability to make cogent posts, people will listen. If you do not make sense, people will not.

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Posts: 6529 | From: Noba Scoba | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted May 17, 2004 16:52      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Actually maven, you opened your cock holster first with:

quote:

"should rumsfeld be fired?"

what kind of shit is this? because a few soldiers got out of hand, we're suddenly the abusers of international law?

You set the tone, I suspect, with out reading the entire thread. Live with it, little man.

Dictionary.com defines moron as:

A stupid person; a dolt.
Psychology. A person of mild mental retardation having a mental age of from 7 to 12 years and generally having communication and social skills enabling some degree of academic or vocational education. The term belongs to a classification system no longer in use and is now considered offensive.

I think you fit the bill.

Oh, see this key? Try using it.

 -

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 17, 2004 17:08      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by maven:
what they are totally disregarding is that nobody was killed during this scandal, and nobody was raped or tortured.

*Yawn*

Another billy-goat eater who either can't or won't learn to read.

The above pack of fscking lies has been posted before, in fact in such similar terms that it could almost be the same critter posting.

Go back to the start of this thread, read Chestys original posting along those lines, and the comprehensive refutation of every single point in it. Then, if you have an IQ exceeding your shoe-size, post something coherent that bears some relation to the known facts. Maybe then I'll bother trying to educate you a little more.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted May 17, 2004 17:57      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Okay people, let's just transcend the troll mmkay?

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Snaggy

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Icon 10 posted May 17, 2004 18:03      Profile for Snaggy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
... transcend the troll

lol, love it [Smile]
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Chesty
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Icon 1 posted May 17, 2004 19:51      Profile for Chesty         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Could any one show me the text where a document or a named source said that anyone outside the gates of that prison ordered anyone to do anything to those prisoners?

You have posted several articles and each one has several anonymous sources or they have quotes form people that say "if so-snd so would have said this and that" but they are all just editorial slant to try and make it sound like there is evidence but there is none.

Why don't you come back to me when there is something more than - Johnny said Suzy hit him with a snowball.

You're obvious political view has caused a rush to Judgement that would be viewed as hysterical had it been criticism of say...
FBI director Louis Freeh recieving orders from Janet Reno to torch American citzens after their grandstanding raid went bad and the "elite ATF task force" was pushed back by women and children they tried to gun down by suprise.


None of you have even admitted that the military had looked at that prison in October and made clear to those working there how to behave.

When they found evidence of soldiers doing wrong they took measures to investigate and relieve people of duty back in January

This is what is true. This is what has been DOCUMENTED. THIS IS NOT HEARSAY!

You continue to throw up article after article where people say "rumsfeld is responsible because i think he should be in charge" or whatever but none of it has any EVIDENCE whatsoever that anyone above that prison ordered anything.

You just think so ....
Weakminded

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csk

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Icon 1 posted May 17, 2004 20:05      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You gotta admit, there's more documented evidence of abuse of prisoners than there is of WMDs. Whether or not the abuse is systemic is immaterial, in a way.

To put it another way, the US[1] lies about the reason for going into Iraq in the first place "It's all about the WMDs", changes their mind later "We want to liberate the Iraqi people", and then expects us to trust that they're doing the right thing in regards to prisoners? When they're putting them in fscking Guantanamo and not giving a straight answer as to their status to get around the Geneva Convention? Then you see these photos come out, and they expect people to trust that this is an isolated occurence?

Trust is something that has to be earnt, not demanded. And it's going to take some pretty spectacular change to rebuild my trust.

[1] Well, the US led force going into Iraq. I'm not excusing anyone involved, especially our own arselicking Aussie politicians.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 17, 2004 20:11      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Chesty:
Could any one show me the text where a document or a named source said that anyone outside the gates of that prison ordered anyone to do anything to those prisoners?

Ho hum, once again I'll post this link this link, and once again you'll respond with some drivel that indicates you haven't read or comprehended the content.

Dunno why I bother really, I suppose it's better than working......

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted May 17, 2004 20:26      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
1) Yes, the Pentagon started dealing with this in January, but it went public in May, and so therefore the public outcry happened in May.
2) Orders to "soften up" the prisoners by whatever measures necessary came from high up. How high we don't know, but they came from someone who thought they had the power to flaunt the Geneva Convention.
3) "That was then this is now" is a weak argument to present in cases like this. If we ignore it, we risk it happening again. Shit, now that I think about it, this is the fscking again. Or did no one else learn about My Lai in history class?
4) I hope to God that prisoner abuse isn't systemic, but I have a horrible feeling it is, just as I have a horrible feeling Bush is gonna get re-elected and invade some other country in his next term. After all, there's also Afghanistan, except in Afghanistan we don't do the torturing - we just hand the prisoners over to the warlords for the "softening" stage. Those that survive have plenty to say. :/

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- The Decemberists

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Chesty
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Icon 1 posted May 17, 2004 20:32      Profile for Chesty         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
THE ONLY THING THAT IS SUBSTANTIATED IS THAT:

Those methods included sleep and sensory deprivation, forcing prisoners to assume "stressful" body positions for up to 45 minutes, threatening them with guard dogs, keeping them isolated for longer than 30 days, and dietary manipulation.

NONE OF THESE WERE WHAT THE SOLDIERS DID THAT HAS CAUSED SUCH A FERVOR.

Again this article has a lot of "if"s, and "could have"s when discussing the behavior of a few men and women who the Military is prosecuting for their actions.

How can they be santioning the actions when they have started investigations and removed from duty the people who did it?

Nowhere in that article does it say that anyone outside that prison ordered anyone to be made naked, assaulted with a broomstick or anything of the like.


You are reading an article that says the commander of forces in iraq said that prisoners can be made uncomfortable, threatened(not attacked)by dogs and kept isolated. Then in your twisted mind you interpret that as "get nekked with them and take pics"

You are wrong and as much as you try to twist the statements you will never make them say that pentagon officials said to hurt or rape anybody.

It doesn't say it - show me where it says it!

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Chesty
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Icon 1 posted May 17, 2004 20:55      Profile for Chesty         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
1) Yes, the Pentagon started dealing with this in January, but it went public in May, and so therefore the public outcry happened in May.

It went public in the news back in January, nut there were no pics until May.

quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
2) Orders to "soften up" the prisoners by whatever measures necessary came from high up. How high we don't know, but they came from someone who thought they had the power to flaunt the Geneva Convention.

That's some nice retoric but again there is no evidence of this - one of the men who is being prosecuted never offered this as an explanation - only the pregnant woman who got caught in numerous sex acts both with and without prisoners
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:

3) "That was then this is now" is a weak argument to present in cases like this. If we ignore it, we risk it happening again. Shit, now that I think about it, this is the fscking again. Or did no one else learn about My Lai in history class?

What we learned from My lai was that there were bad soldiers, even officers but that were also men like Hugh Thompson who know right from wrong and stand up to stop the wrongs.
We also learned that US soldiers never have the right to hide behind orders to commit atrocities.
Especially when those orders aren't substantiated.

quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:

4) I hope to God that prisoner abuse isn't systemic, but I have a horrible feeling it is, just as I have a horrible feeling Bush is gonna get re-elected and invade some other country in his next term. After all, there's also Afghanistan, except in Afghanistan we don't do the torturing - we just hand the prisoners over to the warlords for the "softening" stage. Those that survive have plenty to say. :/

People in brutal lands act in brutal ways - Afghanistan belongs to the Afghans - they best know how to deal with afghans.

The Muslim terrorists that killed so many with the plane attacks in New York and DC boasted about how much more brutal they were than Americans.

Osama has decried that he will kill every American (back in the nineties - after he failed to bring down the WTC on his first attempt)
These people believe it is the right of every Muslim man to beat his woman as he chooses, that sex between men and boys is ok and there is an AK 47 in every household.

I know you are young and naive but hope one day when you are older and have learned more of life you will remember that people who have been to bad places and looked evil in the eye are there to make it possible for you to enjoy the privileges of study and theory and pontificating while others die with their faces in the mud.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 17, 2004 21:01      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Chesty:
Could any one show me the text where a document or a named source said that anyone outside the gates of that prison ordered anyone to do anything to those prisoners?


Did that.

You are wrong and as much as you try to twist the statements you will never make them say that pentagon officials said to hurt or rape anybody.

It says the Pentagon approved interrogation guidelines issued by the general in charge of US forces in Iraq that are violations of the Geneva Convention ban on torture of POWs.

Which would make the general, and his higher-ups who approved the order ......

War Criminals.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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csk

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Icon 1 posted May 17, 2004 21:02      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Chesty:
I know you are young and naive but hope one day when you are older and have learned more of life you will remember that people who have been to bad places and looked evil in the eye are there to make it possible for you to enjoy the privileges of study and theory and pontificating while others die with their faces in the mud.

Paging Colonel Panic, paging Colonel Panic. Assistance with attitude readjustment required.

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6 weeks to go!

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted May 17, 2004 21:07      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Chesty:
You are reading an article that says the commander of forces in iraq said that prisoners can be made uncomfortable, threatened(not attacked)by dogs and kept isolated. Then in your twisted mind you interpret that as "get nekked with them and take pics"

Well that certainly seems to be what happened...

If that's what it takes to protect me from evil I think I'll do without the protection, thank you all the same and yes, I can hear my ancestors spinning in their graves as clearly as you can. For some reason though, I have an easier time dealing with fear than with shame. However, that might just be me. I've had more experience with fear. I know how to ignore it. But shame is new to me.

As for the beating of wives and AK-47s, well, that's true for many parts of this country too (I've patched up battered women as well as battered frat boys :/). Except here I think they prefer M-16s. American made, doncha know.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted May 17, 2004 21:58      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
/me wondering if chesty and maven are related, or if they live in the same trailer park....

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted May 18, 2004 01:59      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Chesty:
THE ONLY THING THAT IS SUBSTANTIATED IS THAT:

Those methods included sleep and sensory deprivation, forcing prisoners to assume "stressful" body positions for up to 45 minutes, threatening them with guard dogs, keeping them isolated for longer than 30 days, and dietary manipulation.

NONE OF THESE WERE WHAT THE SOLDIERS DID THAT HAS CAUSED SUCH A FERVOR.

Actually Chesty, for me personally, the officiallly issued guidelines are what disturbs me the most, as they were issued by educated intelligent men. And if you are working under official guidelines that play fast and loose with any kind of moral standards, let alone the Geneva Convention, would you think that it would be any kind of big deal if you er... push the envelope on this? The official guidelines set a good example no?

quote:
More from the Wit & Wisdom of his Chestyness:
These people believe it is the right of every Muslim man to beat his woman as he chooses, that sex between men and boys is ok and there is an AK 47 in every household.

Ahhh! An islamic scholar! You make my point about the parochial ignorant attitudes that lie behind your country's disastrous behaviour in Iraq more eloquently than I ever could.

Sow the wind Chesty....

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted May 18, 2004 08:06      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You know, I'll just take one thing that's been said here, and say that I think some credence should be put in it - the people that controlled the prison were not trained in how to run it.

First off, let me just say that I am *apalled* at the actions of the few men and women who committed these heinous acts. I do not support any of this, just as I don't support the war in Iraq.

With that said, I do not think the actions of the bad troops is excusable - just that more accountability *does need to be put on higher ups*, as I think there is truth to the idea that they weren't trained for their jobs as wardens. Mind you, it is my belief that anyone should have the common sense and decency to act better than these people did, but then you've seen some comments around here about broomhandles and non-military individuals. I have an intern who I might expect to know how to do certain relatively common procedures, but I still walk him through things the first time around, so that he doesn't go to an office, do the wrong thing, and reflect badly on both me and my department.

Running a prison cannot be a simple task, though there are common principles that should be logical - such as keeping the prisoners in reasonable accomodations while maintaining physical security for the safety of both parties (the jailers and the jailed). Unfortunately, I've seen people from parts of this country that don't necessarily have a broad mind about people, and the rights that all individuals deserve, and the close-minded attitude that others might have a different cultural/ethical/moral/religious background than their own. A part of the general training that should be given to troops going to Iraq should be a full primer on Iraqi common culture and beliefs - I might know a thing or two about Muslim beliefs and attitudes, but your average person whose been steeped in Christian beliefs and is close-minded might have *no idea* what is grievously offensive to Muslims -- nor do they care - it's all about *them* (gee, why do they hate us so much?). So to take individuals with these characteristics and just say "Hey, run this prison" is downright irresponsible, and the people that made these irresponsible decisions should be punished (the troops should be punished as well, but in a chain of command, those in charge /must be held accountable/). It is essential that properly trained individuals be put in charge of such an institution, and train the people who will join them in operating it.

Note: None of this takes into account the fact that amongst the prisoners are many completely innocent people who didn't belong there in the first place. Everything about this is just *so* wrong.

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greycat

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Icon 1 posted May 18, 2004 09:50      Profile for greycat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The fact that we have such horrible people in my country disgusts me. And I'm not talking about the ones in Iraq at the moment, nor the ones in Washington or the Pentagon. I'm talking about the two individuals in this thread.

You're both a disgrace to my species. Please crawl back into the primordial ooze and finish evolving.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted May 18, 2004 14:01      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Greycat that is unfair. Chesty in particular has tried to debate this without resorting to insults, though plenty have been thrown at him. I disagree with him profoundly, and think many (if not most) of his arguments are extremely weak, but he has made some cogent points, and has been a reasonably effective spokesman for the other point of view.

Those things that he refuses to acknowledge, like the systemic failure that led to these acts, or the seriousness of them, or indeed the fact that Iraqis are humans that deserve respect, are in themselves quite revealing of the psychology that led to this disaster.

But he seems a fairly decent person who has argued an unpopular (...well unpopular here) point of view with some restraint.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted May 18, 2004 22:39      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Here is an article I found on a site called rabble.ca

quote:
About this grim business in Iraq that will be dominating the world's headlines in an increasingly unfortunate way for some time to come: there's good news on at least one front.

Freedom and democracy are affirming themselves in one crucial zone — the U.S. political arena, where the Congress and the media are finally taking control of the debate away from the manipulative and authoritarian Bush administration.

Of course, there's still a certain resistance to dragging the full truth and its implications out in the open, as when Senator John McCain calls for more troops in Iraq “because the alternative is too horrible to contemplate.”

But what's on the cusp of being said openly — and no doubt will be in the next few weeks or months — is that when you calculate everything (including the hundreds of billions of dollars in costs) the U. S. is actually losing the war; that a classic mistake of historic proportions has been made in invading Iraq; and that the first step towards redressing the situation is not merely the resignation of the secretary of defence but the removal of the entire Bush government.

By “classic mistake,” let's understand that peculiar illusion, repeated many times throughout history, that if you show up more or less unprovoked outside alien gates with a large army, the people inside will believe you when you proclaim your good intentions and your superior ways.

Think of Napoleon setting off to liberate the poor serfs chafing under the Tsarist yoke in 1812, expecting a hero's welcome. He found only scorched earth, as Moscow and environs had been evacuated along with the foodstuffs, animals and materiel needed to support his army of nearly a half million. Trekking back in a brutal winter, only 10,000 made it and Napoleon had met his first Waterloo.

Or Benedict Arnold's and Richard Montgomery's American armies, reaching Quebec City in the winter of 1776 to liberate the habitants from the British yoke. The French Canadians sided with the British and the campaign was a disaster. Or, for that matter, the British proposing to “liberate” Iraq from the Turkish yoke after the First World War. History is littered with this stuff.

The uproar over prisoner abuse and torture, and the barbaric response of the Islamic extremists who responded by beheading an American, has created a new crisis for the already threadbare logic of invasion. Even that last fabricated argument — “getting rid of a dictator” — is on its last legs, as the mayhem now unfolding is arguably as bad as if Saddam, who had no major weapons and was going nowhere anyway, had been left alone to meet a tyrant's fate on his own somewhere down the road.

The final appeal is still to “our values” — freedom and democracy. These are our political values and are indeed unquestionably superior to tyranny and must be defended against real threats — not only terrorists, but those who would subvert constitutional safeguards in the battle against terrorists.

What the Islamic world sees and resists, however, are our dominant cultural values — money-worship, technology-worship, rampant pornography, the pursuit of frivolity while the world starves, not to mention our Western history of highly undemocratic imperial interventions. When everything is added up on the human scale, we are not superior to anybody.

Besides, when George W. Bush proclaims “freedom and democracy,” he hardly does it in the true sense of the term. If the Iraqi adventure with its deceptions and manipulations is any indication, he does it in the same general vein as Islamic extremists when they holler out “God is great.” You can't argue with either proposition, and both of them actually mean something else. What they mean is: If you don't agree with me, I'll beat your brains out.

After the worst is admitted, the world can then concentrate on helping the U.S. remove its leg from this self-made trap. If he were wise, George W. Bush would reverse his catastrophic policy and expedite the healing process. At the Napoleonic level, however, apparently you can't do that. And there are still six long months until the U.S. election in November.

Ralph Surette writes from Nova Scotia. This piece appeared in The Chronicle-Herald on May 15, 2004.



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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 19, 2004 00:27      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
But what's on the cusp of being said openly — and no doubt will be in the next few weeks or months — is that when you calculate everything (including the hundreds of billions of dollars in costs) the U. S. is actually losing the war;

A couple of points the US administration has failed to understand...

1. Winning a war means achieving your political objectives, if you fail to do that, no amount of 'battlefield victories' matter a damn.

2. In war, it's not about who has the biggest army or the best weapons, it's about who is willing and able to pay the price of victory. In the US civil war, the Confederacy actually 'won' the body-count, but lost the war because the Union was willing and able to pay a higher price for victory. Likewise in Lebanon the Israelis 'won' the body-count, but ended up withdrawing, because the cost of staying was higher than they were willing to pay.

So, is America winning?
Let's assess the situation in light of the above 2 points ....

(1) It's pretty clear that Bush and co are nowhere near achieving their political objectives. They can't even keep their chosen puppet-rulers alive long enough for the handover to the puppet government. The backlash against the invasion has harmed Americas standing internationally, and not just in the Muslim nations.

(2) Does anyone really believe the US is willing to go on pay hundreds of billions of dollars and thousands of lives per year to maintain occupation of some sandy shit-hole half a world away? At some point it will dawn on the brains-trust in Washington that it would be cheaper and easier to just buy the oil.

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nekomatic
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Icon 4 posted May 19, 2004 01:39      Profile for nekomatic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm actually sorry that anyone has used insulting language against our new friend... because he/she was about to do a very entertaining job of drowning in his/her self-righteousness without any outside help.

quote:
Originally posted by maven:
i, unlike you, don't limit myself to following whatever retarded information the media or the government feeds me. unlike you, i judge based on what i know, not what others tell me.

Now this has me intrigued. Are you in Iraq at the moment, or did you just get back recently? Which places did you visit, and what did you see there?

quote:
Originally posted by Chesty:
I know you are young and naive but hope one day when you are older and have learned more of life you will remember that people who have been to bad places and looked evil in the eye are there to make it possible for you to enjoy the privileges of study and theory and pontificating while others die with their faces in the mud.

To support this kind of rhetoric, some further detail on your evident experience as a combat veteran might be welcome, too... until then, we might usefully spend a little more time considering that 'study and theory and pontificating' have gone a long way towards stopping most of humanity needing to die with their faces in the mud, and a little less time making assumptions about what other people here would or wouldn't be prepared to do for the right cause.
Posts: 822 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Cap'n Vic

Member # 1477

Icon 1 posted May 20, 2004 22:02      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Chesty:
THE ONLY THING THAT IS SUBSTANTIATED IS THAT:

Those methods included sleep and sensory deprivation, forcing prisoners to assume "stressful" body positions for up to 45 minutes, threatening them with guard dogs, keeping them isolated for longer than 30 days, and dietary manipulation.

NONE OF THESE WERE WHAT THE SOLDIERS DID THAT HAS CAUSED SUCH A FERVOR.

Again this article has a lot of "if"s, and "could have"s when discussing the behavior of a few men and women who the Military is prosecuting for their actions.

How can they be santioning the actions when they have started investigations and removed from duty the people who did it?

Nowhere in that article does it say that anyone outside that prison ordered anyone to be made naked, assaulted with a broomstick or anything of the like.


You are reading an article that says the commander of forces in iraq said that prisoners can be made uncomfortable, threatened(not attacked)by dogs and kept isolated. Then in your twisted mind you interpret that as "get nekked with them and take pics"

You are wrong and as much as you try to twist the statements you will never make them say that pentagon officials said to hurt or rape anybody.

It doesn't say it - show me where it says it!

Does this count as sensory deprivation?
I guess when your dead you can't sleep or feel anything.

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(!) (T) = 8-D

Posts: 5471 | From: One of the drones from sector 7G | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
csk

Member # 1941

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Icon 1 posted May 20, 2004 22:25      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Would it be in bad taste to point out that the female soldier on the right is reasonably attractive, and I would indeed "hit it" given the chance? [Big Grin]

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6 weeks to go!

Posts: 4455 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged


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