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Author Topic: Sudden Acceleration
TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2010 05:36      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Sudden Acceleration, I know that many of you have heard of this problem, now here are some facts. This discourse will mention two or three option levels. MT mechanical throttle. ETC electrical controlled throttle. KL Key less operation.

____ Prior to 1985 almost all cars had MT, Sudden Acceleration was graphed at about twenty five per year, there were exceptions, but not many.

____ With the advent of ABS the car designers and engineers started to look at traction control.

____ By limiting acceleration the EPA was happy because the engine was not allowed to go WOT (Wide Open Throttle) until road speed neared WOT.

____ Now the problems, Floor mat entrapment, yes this has happened, but how often. Stuck pedal yes this has happened, but is it the only fault? Engine Control Module fault, to me this is the most likely.

____ What you should you do, practice putting the car in neutral and coasting to the side of the road. Do this with out using the brakes, they may be ineffective because the engine being at WOT will not have enough vacuum to give you power brakes. Cars with KL will be hard to shut off as the fault may over ride the button, and not shut off.

____ There are times I wished I had a little job shop and a ton of stock, because one car company is claiming that a shim will cure the stuck pedal part of the problem, start the presses.

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Benjamin Franklin,

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2010 10:06      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I am confused,

with these accidents, even if it is not a floor mat problem or a pedal sticking problem, why can these people not stop thier cars?

I assume these are automatic transmissions ( and therefore they can't just step on the clutch to take the car out of gear then pull the hand brake.

can't you put an automatic in neutral at high speeds? IN my old automatic tranmission jeep I could shift to lower gears to save my brakes going down mountains.

in these accidents, have people tried to stop by pulling the hand brake, by shifting into a lower gear.

I guess I am asking wh they cannpot force going into neutral or a lower gear and combining that with pedal brakes or hand brakes stop the car??

If my pedal got stuck, I would try everything to stop the car without damaging the motor, but after a few seconds, I don't care anymore.

what would happed if your put an automatic in park at highway speeds?

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CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2010 12:29      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If you could get it in park at high speed, it wouldn't last for long. The transmission would more than likely blow itself to pieces.

The real reason that these accidents occur is panic. Imagine toodling down the road and suddenly not being able to slow down. This is not exactly a normal situation. Most people have never experienced anything like it. So instead of thing, "toss it in neutral" or " kill the engine" they mentally freeze.

Old car drivers are a touch more familiar with going WOT. Bad motor mounts used to cause this to happen, not regularly, but enough to be aware of the possibility. But most people nowadays are not as aware of the inherent danger that comes with driving.

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2010 13:58      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Personally, it blows my mind -- but a good year ago, something similar happened with a friend who has a non-Toyota. Going into neutral or *turning off the ignition* didn't occur to her apparently. I think it doesn't occur to a lot of people, apparently...and all the more so in a panic. Either of the two would be my first choices. In an ideal world, one of these things would help with braking working as well (it seems that the controls don't want you to hit both pedals at once), but at the very least, it would stop /acceleration/ (unless you're going down a hill), which should help one bring the vehicle to an eventual stop. (controlled or otherwise)

Edit: This last bit may not be true, as per Steen
I've heard that one of the biggest problems with the accelerator is the 'return' on the pedal has been lessened by some gizmo...and the gizmo can fail to ease up on the gas. D'oh! So much for decoupling things in the pursuit of 'smoother rides.' [/i] In the meantime, I'm quite happy with my pre-recall Corolla. [Smile]

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2010 14:36      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Lets just say most of it is FUD, and the likelihood of it happening to someone is far less than many other things most people do every single day.

The issue is that the spring that pushes the pedal back to its regular position isn't sealed correctly, it collects moisture, and begins to stick.

Also, the car being DBW vs cable throttle is irrelevant to this particular issue.

Also, automatic transmissions are designed to be able to be smacked into neutral without pressing any buttons or anything for safety reasons.

If your car accelerates without you doing it, and you freak out and die instead of smacking the car into neutral, yanking/stomping on the parking brake, and/or jamming on the brakes, YOU SHOULDNT BE DRIVING.

Also, putting it in park would suck, since neutral should do everything you need, but at the end of the day, if the options are put it in park and destroy the drivetrain, or die, I'm going with bye-bye drivetrain.

Also, power brakes or not, standing on the brakes with the car under full acceleration may not brake as well, but the hydraulic system would still mostly work, and might glaze/ruin the brakes, but it should do a very good job of stopping the car.

Also, did anyone ever think to put their foot under the gas pedal and pull it back up manually (after doing all those other things you could do?)

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2010 15:18      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The problem isn't a spring and it's got nothing to do with electronics

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2010 16:51      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ GrumpySteen, The new floor mats and redesigned throttle pedal controler, will cure the majority of the complaints, however there are a few cars and trucks, that the stepper motor that drives the throttle body opens said throttle even if the pedal is full up. One was driven to the dealer by neutral drive neutral drive. Then in front of a news crew it would race to the rev limiter, when started.

____ It is not that I do not trust drive by wire systems, but a few years ago Audi got caught in a simular problem with drive by wire, they had to harden the ECM (Engine Control Module). Ferrite beads on all I/O connections RF bypass capacitors to keep stray currents out of the ECM. Where I worked there was a problem with the Electrical noise that our fuel pumps made, at certain RPM the alternator noise and fuel pump noise on the wireing harness would confuse the ECM as it was looking at the Mass Air Flow signal causing the fuel trim to go rich just like pulling out the choke knob.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5835 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2010 21:22      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Quoth dnf:
but at the end of the day, if the options are put it in park and destroy the drivetrain, or die, I'm going with bye-bye drivetrain.

I was thinking just that thought on my way home tonight. My life is a hell of a lot more important than that of my drivetrain. Ergo, if that seemed like the only thing that would significantly *stop* the car...so be it. (Still, I'd try and exhaust all other options first.)

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CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2010 22:38      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
OK, there is more to it than just the fact that you would have a broken trans.

Depending on the damage to the trans, you could conceivably scatter parts in your wake. That means the possibility of causing accidents behind you.

Rear wheel drive cars, again depending on the damage, could drop a drive shaft. Basically think of pole vaulting you car.

And the you get to cars like my old Corvairs. If the damage to the trans or differential was bad enough, you could literally lose your axles.

So just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Neutral and shutting the motor down are your best options.

But another thing I have heard. Is that these new keyless systems can be a hindrance too. Some systems require pressing the button in a pattern or holding them for three seconds. Now what if this happened during rush hour? You know, I think I like my regular old fashioned keys...

Posts: 2463 | From: Utarrrrggggghhh!!!!!!!! | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted February 02, 2010 04:19      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ First off, do not throw the lever into park, if you happen to shear off splines, now you do not have braking from the locked trans. Application of park on front wheel drive cars will lock the axle, now you are skidding the wheel locked up. Using the neutral position lets you keep the engine running, Power steering, Vacuum and or hydraulic pressure for the power brakes, depending on if it is VaccuBoost, oe HydroBoost. Neutral or down shifting would be the preference.

____ Cars emit a lot of stray electrical noise. Some of you may be old enough to remember AM car radios that would some times pick up the noise of the spark plug wires from near by cars. Very few wires on a car run in shield, or are twisted pair. Cars and trucks ordered for police use or highway department use have hardening for the Radar, and Radios.

____ Think about a car lot, how often when the cars are stored there do the batteries go low, the sales man calls service and they jump the car. Did that car take a pulse to the ECM during that start?? Rental cars at Airports are they parked where the Ground radar could zap them?? Who wrote the code, was s/he an expert or new at coding???

____ Many people want to blame the vender of the pedal assembly, how ever it was built to the Customers design and price point. So was the ECM, The Wireing Harness, The Stepper Motor. All of these parts were built to the Car Makers specs, and price point!

____ I am including a How things work link that may explain some of why I think the ECM circuits are the cause.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question230.htm

____ Look at the bottom of your Computer and you should find a FCC Label stating that it is compliante with FCC specs. for home use, cars do not have such a label.

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:0G295kilsncJ:www.sceptre.com/pub/Manuals/LCD/X7G-NAGA6.pdf+this+device+complies+with+part+15&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

____ If you go to this link please read the sentence #2

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5835 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Geek 2U
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Icon 1 posted February 04, 2010 04:51      Profile for Mr. Geek 2U     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Mo-Man

I thought I read that you were a Detroit, Mo-Town, Union Man.

I am surprised that you have not identified the real problem as non-union labor!

Have a great day!

Mr. Geek2U

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Posts: 260 | From: Kalamazoo | Registered: Aug 2009  |  IP: Logged
TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted February 04, 2010 05:40      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Mr. Geek 2U, To me it was so glaring I was blinded by the light.

____"The Software Engineers are all non-represented workers." Saith TheMoMan. Sorry when you know some thing that vital and forget to tell others.

____ When Audi got caught in the same problem, they really beat up their vendor. GM, Ford, and Chrysler took notice, also GM (AC Spark Plug) got caught back in 1975 with Semi-Trailer ABS, so at least GM understood Hardening sensitive circuits. Seems the truckers with CBs were installing Amplifiers between the CB and the Antenna, generating stronger fields, that were blowing out the FET transisters on the I/O ports, of the ABS units.

____ [EDIT] I wonder how much crossover between the ABS Brakes on the Prius and the other models, is the same code used, on all of the affected models??

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5835 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 05, 2010 03:30      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
Personally, it blows my mind -- but a good year ago, something similar happened with a friend who has a non-Toyota. Going into neutral or *turning off the ignition* didn't occur to her apparently.

Might not have done any good.

There was an incident here in oz recently, none of the controls worked (except the steering) brakes, gears, ignition, totally useless.

Driving a modern car, you're just operating a vehicle-control computer, pray you never see the Blue Screen Of Death.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted February 05, 2010 04:22      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Master Disconnect. As a Machine builder, every machine I built had a Master Disconnect. They also had what we called a mushroom switch (E-STOP), the Master Disconnect killed all power to the machine.

____ Now lets talk about Cars, if your car was manufactered before 1990, most of this will not apply. Open your owners Manual and then try to find the location of the fuse and relay panel remove the cover and have a look see at all the sealed relays. They are not really sealed just encased in plastic so it is easier to plug them in at the factory. With a keyless car one of those relays might mean life and death, should it stick ON (closed). Remember that these relays are bought from the lowest bidder. Getting scared yet.

____ As Car makers keep trying to add features to basic transportation, more and more of these systems become entangled. Some brands with keyless operation, you have to hold the start button for three seconds to kill the engine!!! At Sixty Miles per hour that is two hundred and fifty feet just to shut the (@#$%) thing off.

____ How does that ugly E-STOP BUTTON look now.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5835 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 05, 2010 04:58      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
When I worked with theatre control systems (moving several tons of gear above a stage full of people) we used to say there were only 2 things that can go wrong, something failing to move when you tell it to, and something moving when you didn't tell it.

Guess which one is the more scary?

So, alongside all our fancy digital control systems, we had a DMB (dead mans button) that was pure analog, it didn't matter how screwed up our software got, if the DMB wasn't pressed, the winches wouldn't move.

It was especially useful when testing new software releases, we used to lose so many testers before we had the DMB. [evil]

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted February 05, 2010 05:48      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ TFD, Where I worked the fork trucks had seat safety switches if the driver fell off of the seat, the truck stopped.

____ The robot teach pendants had Dead Man Switches

____ My newest tractor has a seat safety switch.

____ Train Locomotives have a dead man switch built into the throttle.

____ Now how many drivers would put up with having a dead man control???

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5835 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 05, 2010 12:14      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
____ Now how many drivers would put up with having a dead man control???

Are you crazy?
It would interfere with them talking on the phone while lighting a cigarette, drinking coffee, and doing their makeup.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted February 05, 2010 13:38      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TFD: Actually, according to the article, putting it in neutral did work to the extent that I would expect it to work. It disengaged the engine from the wheels, stopping the car from accelerating. From that point onwards, it was a matter of physics -- unless it was going uphill on a cold day...in molasses, it wasn't about to slow down quickly on its own. Alas, the brakes didn't work as well as one would hope...but it sure sounds like going into neutral helped, though it was as non-obvious to that driver as it was to the one I cited. :/

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 05, 2010 14:16      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
TFD: Actually, according to the article, putting it in neutral did work to the extent that I would expect it to work. It disengaged the engine from the wheels, stopping the car from accelerating.

The wording in that article is a little misleading, other coverage made it clear the car continued under power for another half an hour.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted February 05, 2010 14:21      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Prior to these DBW systems Cruise Control was done with a latching relay. The ground end of the relay was wired to the brake lights, so stepping on the brakes removed the ground connection. the relay would drop, also it could not be latched if the brake light bulbs were burned out, no current path.

____ Some of these cars with small engines will not pull enough vacuum at WOT to keep the power brakes at full capacity. Our Motorhome and our Van use hydroboost brakes, they tap off of the power steering pump. If the engine dies the oil stored in the accumulator will last about three pedal pushes.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2010 08:19      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm moderately sure toyota's brake boosters have been run by hydraulics for some time now. I'm 90% there is no brake booster going from the intake on my '04 Toyota.
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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2010 17:08      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ DNF. Yes High strung engines usually have lower vacuum. We have a mid size van with a 4.3L engine it has stepper motor cruise control and hydraboost brakes. The 1994 Full size van had the 4.3L engine with Vacuum cruise and VaccuBoost brakes (very large accumulator). with the full sized van running on cruise it would not hold over 63/mph try to set it higher it would slow down to 63/mph the engine could not generate enough vacuum to hold 65/mph. Now the newer van (mid sized) has the stepper motor cruise it will hold most legal speeds but the heater and AC controls are wacked at speeds over 63/mph. Guess what the heater temp. and the dampers are all vacuum operated.

____ Now onto EMFs it seems that some MultiMode Pacemakers while shielded against MicroWaves do not do so well with electric power tools. They are also not blocking the stray energy from the magnetos in chain saws, weed wackers, and leaf blowers, I guess if you have a multifunction PaceMaker you had better pay for Lawn and Yard work.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5835 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged


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