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Author Topic: Web Hosting and Templates
Mel
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Icon 1 posted November 05, 2006 15:55      Profile for Mel     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm thinking of opening my own jewelry shop online, but I don't know how to do that at all. I have basic web design training, but I haven't a clue on how to get hosted, who is the best, etc. I also want to be able to have a shopping cart and make it so people can pay with Paypal. Anyone in this field who can help me out? I'm looking for something cheap that I can mostly do by myself.
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uilleann
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Icon 1 posted November 05, 2006 16:03            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hm, the top two in my head would be Dreamhost and NearlyFreeSpeech.NET, but you'd have to make sure they offer everything you need (for example, the latter does not offer Ruby on Rails, if you find a shopping cart system that needs that). And I'd better give Ackoo (bless you!) a mention although I've never specifically looked into what they offer.

I think some hosts provide a cart system and other related services for you.

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maximile

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Icon 1 posted November 05, 2006 16:07      Profile for maximile   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
For hosting, I know a few people here would suggest Nearly Free Speech, and they'd seem ideal for such a website, where not much traffic is needed to make a lot of money. I've recently switched to them, and it seems that they rock as much as everyone says.

An e-commerce solution is trickier to find. Until recently I'd have suggested Kagi, but their website recently turned into a horrible ugly MS yuckfest.

Still, much as I dislike Paypal, it's easy enough to set up a store with them, so perhaps you should consider using them. Google Checkout was looking promising, but it only works in the US. Once you've set up a paypal merchant account, I think it's just a case of copying and pasting some code into your site... nothing taxing.

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Metasquares
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Icon 1 posted November 05, 2006 20:37      Profile for Metasquares   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It's harder if you want to use the fancy order processing system (IPN, I think it was called?) where Paypal will automatically call a Perl script on your server, but the rest is fairly easy.
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uilleann
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Icon 1 posted November 05, 2006 22:37            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The most important issue to bear in mind is that you cannot have a secure site (https) without a dedicated IP address, which I imagine is expensive (they're scarce). You need a secure site. You have several options:

  • Buy a dedicated IP and host a complete ordering and payment system (bigger companies tend to always do this)
  • Use a merchant service to run the whole site: Yahoo have a shopping site service for example (whether it's reputable is another matter)
  • Use a merchant service just to handle the checkout, companies include WorldPay and PayPal. The shopping cart itself will have to run on an insecure site, and when you want to checkout the items in the cart, the site adds up the cost and forwards the payment request to another, secure site. The electronic music store AudioJelly works this way: you checkout with WorldPay. No credit card details are stored anywhere, either: WorldPay don't make you log in or otherwise store any details (in theory!), which is more reassuring than sites that do keep your records on file, which could be hacked!

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quantumfluff
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Icon 1 posted November 06, 2006 05:52      Profile for quantumfluff     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't believe you really need a dedictated IP. Your cert is signed against your domain name. As long as the web browser thinks it's visiting www.foo.com and the cert is in the name of www.foo.com, it will be happy. Were it otherwise, you could not to HTTPS to sites that were virtual hosted.

But, that aside, another option is to use ebay as a storefront. It seems a lot of small businesses do that.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted November 06, 2006 06:10      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'll toss in the suggestion of using Etsy.com as well, if you decide not to make your own site. You get a simple url to refer people to, the cost for listings is less than at Ebay and the couple of people I know who use it have had better luck selling their things there than they have on Ebay.

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted November 06, 2006 06:53      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by quantumfluff:
I don't believe you really need a dedictated IP. Your cert is signed against your domain name. As long as the web browser thinks it's visiting www.foo.com and the cert is in the name of www.foo.com, it will be happy. Were it otherwise, you could not to HTTPS to sites that were virtual hosted.

But, that aside, another option is to use ebay as a storefront. It seems a lot of small businesses do that.

That's not true, qf. HTTPS key exchange does not permit the transmission of the Host: header - it happens via IP address only. SSLv3 is supposed to support this via some extensions, but so far, I think Opera and maybe Firefox support it. I don't know if IE7 will support it, but there's already a very large installed based of IE6SP2, which does *not* support it.

P.S. I kept this link as a note to myself awhile ago:
http://journal.paul.querna.org/articles/2005/04/24/tls-server-name-indication?postid=70

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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Metasquares
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Icon 1 posted November 06, 2006 07:05      Profile for Metasquares   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by uilleann:
The most important issue to bear in mind is that you cannot have a secure site (https) without a dedicated IP address, which I imagine is expensive (they're scarce). You need a secure site.

They're not that expensive; it's only $5 more per month to get one on Dreamhost.
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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted November 06, 2006 11:01      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If she goes with PayPal, don't they already have a https site that she could just link to and have the information forwarded to a script on her host?

I've never used PayPal or built a shopping cart (though it doesn't seem it'd be that hard). Doesn't GarlicGuy have an online order form for Garlic Head... Perhaps you can get some idea of what his site is doing.

P.S. Where is Garlic's site, again?

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My Site

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Black Widow
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Icon 1 posted November 06, 2006 11:27      Profile for Black Widow     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
P.S. Where is Garlic's site, again?

Getcher Garlic Here.
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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted November 06, 2006 11:39      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
If she goes with PayPal, don't they already have a https site that she could just link to and have the information forwarded to a script on her host?

I've never used PayPal or built a shopping cart (though it doesn't seem it'd be that hard). Doesn't GarlicGuy have an online order form for Garlic Head... Perhaps you can get some idea of what his site is doing.

From what I've read, you're basically right. I've also witnessed most of it personally when paying for things via PayPal: The shopping cart software builds an invoice, starts a transaction with PayPal and links you to it. Upon successful authorization from PayPal, it does some behind-the-scenes auth. with the shopping cart software, and redirects you back to a 'payment succeeded' page. Depending on the software, this is either extremely seemless, or kind of crude. There are even open source shopping cart apps that have PayPal modules, IIRC.

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted November 06, 2006 11:46      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Howdy Mel. I just noticed my name when BW and GameMaster brought it up.

Hosting and creating sites is pretty cheap even if you have someone else do the work. You have to pay server fees to someone whether that's Yahoo or a smaller ISP.

The webcart is a bit more of a trick, but there are several low-cost or no-cost carts that you can download. Most do not have much in the way of features, so if you are planning on having a true 'catalogue' site with many items, you will need to consider paying for a premium cart service.

The good news is that now PayPal can handle all your gateway transactions and provide you a virtual terminal for processing off-line transactions (mail, phone calls, in-person sales) and all for $20.00 per month. Compared to a couple of years ago when the best prices out there started at $50.00 per month and required an initiation fee ($100 to $500) and an annual renewal fee of $100 or so. You can see that PayPal really is your pal as an online merchant.

I could do my own web-design for what little it takes, particularly since I don't make many changes to the site with any frequency - I merely choose not to, preferring to leave that to a free-lancer who does it for a living, and thus he stays abreast of the new developments in web-engine preferences, Usability, etc., etc. I got my guy thru eLance.com The person I use is Robert Martin. He's located in upstate NY (same town as Ugh, MightyClub). I'd advise against using folks from other continents merely because, if difficulties arise you will be without reasonable recourse.

Newf (drunkennewfiemidget) does such design work as a sideline I believe and he has the advantage for you of being Canadian.

Hope this helps. PM me for questions if you like.

gg

[Edit: the larger problem to solve has to do with safe, affordable shipping. btw, fwiw, ymmv. [Wink] PPS - If you decide to contact RM, phone him - his email filters are too tight to let you through.]

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I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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Mel
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Icon 1 posted November 06, 2006 13:16      Profile for Mel     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
I'll toss in the suggestion of using Etsy.com as well, if you decide not to make your own site. You get a simple url to refer people to, the cost for listings is less than at Ebay and the couple of people I know who use it have had better luck selling their things there than they have on Ebay.

Yeah, I'm thinking of trying there first before I start a site to see if my stuff will sell. Ebay is garbage now with their high prices [Razz]
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Mel
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Icon 1 posted November 06, 2006 13:25      Profile for Mel     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hey garlicguy,

I was checking out this site:

http://www.perfectory.com/templates.htm

Even though I can create my own website, I have no clue how to use Flash (haven't used it since high school). Thought it would look neat though, but apparently there are some new laws about the blind being able to read Flash sites.

No cost carts would be awesome - cuz I'm poor. Would just need to know how to install something like that. It would be so much better if I had someone at my dispense who could create a site just how I wanted it - for REALLY cheap...lol This is why I like to learn to do things on my own... Plus, then I could fix things when they break.

Maximile said: "Still, much as I dislike Paypal, it's easy enough to set up a store with them, so perhaps you should consider using them. Google Checkout was looking promising, but it only works in the US. Once you've set up a paypal merchant account, I think it's just a case of copying and pasting some code into your site... nothing taxing."

Is this option really only available to those that live in the US? I thought Paypal was Canada-friendly too?

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted November 06, 2006 13:45      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Stay away from Flash!!!
(On that note, I'm under-impressed by the website for that 'web designer.')

On the matter of Google Checkout - Google is an American company...they usually release their software and programs in the US first, and then roll them out internationally if successful. I have a feeling the 'holiday' season will be a bigger test for it, but really...I've heard very little about it to date. Personally, I'm very hesitant to give Google my CC# and details, so I'll stick with using plain CC transactions, or PayPal.

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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Ugh, MightyClub
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Icon 1 posted November 06, 2006 13:48      Profile for Ugh, MightyClub     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well, I heard my name, so I might as well pipe up. I use 1 & 1 to host my personal site. (Note: that link is the BD's affiliate link from the bottom of the Joy of Tech homepage, so they would get a little kickback if you decided to sign up via that URL [Smile] )

My el-cheapo $2.95/month package includes a free shopping cart option, but I haven't investigated it because I have nothing to sell. I can tell you my el-cheapo package does NOT include SSL, but you can add "shared" SSL for something like $50/year. More expensive packages include or allow dedicated SSL.

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Ugh!

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maximile

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Icon 1 posted November 06, 2006 15:16      Profile for maximile   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mel:
Is this option really only available to those that live in the US? I thought Paypal was Canada-friendly too?

Paypal is pretty much everywhere-friendly. It's Google Checkout that's limited to only a few countries.

But this talk of getting your own SSL seems pointless to me. There's the extra effort/expense, plus you then have to do something with the information they send you. And I think most people feel safer when they see that they're giving their card details to a large, reputable company rather than a small, new website.

Seems to me that the kind of things you'll be selling don't warrant a shopping cart, either. I suggest you just get some fairly cheap hosting, make a simple, clean, attractive website (staying away from Flash), and add a PayPal "one-click" button to each item.

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted November 06, 2006 20:18      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Mel:

The low-cost or no cost carts are fine if a) you know what you are doing or b) if you have the time to spend learning how to interleave your catalogue pages with and SSL cart. Dman and others are correct, there are a number of open source web carts around. But again, unless you have the time to really learn how to use them, you may end up with a pretty serious tangle.

I suspect that max's dislike of PayPal may stem from the fact that it is owned by eBay. (max?) PayPal has worked flawlessly for us since we made the switch earlier this year. You cannot beat the price for a merchant account/gateway type provider anywhere. And yes, it is available in Canada.

I'm thinking that any number of folks here (GC) could help you with a simple HTML site and even provide that template(s) you would need to add articles of merchandise as you grow your business.

Then it is a matter of promoting your site using AdWords, etc. in order to get your initial traffic up to levels that will start producing orders. This all takes time, though, so don't start counting on positive cash flow for a while...

In US Dollars: Web hosting = $10 to 15/month
Design work = $50/hr
PayPal Pro = $20/month

These are obviously minimal overhead costs for a minimal eCommerce site and the amount of design and maintanence your site will need is totally up to you.

Good luck.

gg

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I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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maximile

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Icon 1 posted November 07, 2006 01:34      Profile for maximile   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
At first I was put off PayPal by this incident. And browsing around the web, you do come across people from time to time that refuse to use PayPal to pay for things. And I think that they make the "I don't have an account, let me pay by credit card" link (or whatever it is) pretty obscure, which I think puts a lot of people (especially those new to the internet) off buying.

So it's not so much that I have a problem with their policies / ethics (though lots of people do), but more that I don't think that they provide a great user experience for the customer.

And if you're interested, I'll make you a website for free, and I'll host it until it starts to get busy, as long as I can put my name at the bottom and link to it from my portfolio. You'd have to be prepared to wait a few weeks, though, cause I have course stuff to do. (I won't be offended if you'd rather do it yourself or pay someone to do it for you, of course.) PM me if you're interested at all.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted November 07, 2006 03:40      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
Stay away from Flash!!!
(On that note, I'm under-impressed by the website for that 'web designer.')

I know that you don't like Flash, dragonman, but don't really know why. Would you care to tell us more? I ask this out of curiosity, and am not meaning it in an aggressive or critical way.

I do agree that not many site designers seem able to use it with enough restraint, reminding one of the early days of the web, when garish colours and horrors like flashing type were common. But it is possible to build a good looking site with some Flash, and a photographer friend of my wife and I, Carol Sharp, has a gorgeous site that makes extensive use of Flash, though I imagine it must have been very expensive to produce.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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uilleann
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Icon 1 posted November 07, 2006 04:03            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I can't speak for Andrew, but Flash isn't one of my bestesty buddies. For one thing, it robs the page of all viable navigation and user control: middle-click/command-click for opening pages in new tabs and windows, bookmarking, CSS manipulation to amend bad site design and so forth. Sites based in Flash are CPU chewing and tie you into rather irritating designs that restrict your ability to work with site content.

JavaScript has some similar flaws. For example, some search results and other pages decide to reduce the browser window (with all of your tabs in) to some arbitrary and sometimes minuscule size. So you ban JavaScript from resizing windows, but the browser still demands that JavaScript be able to open unresizable windows. Then a page forces images to open in a pop-up window, but initialises the window to a tiny size, intending to resize it afterwards as needed. You've blocked resizing by JavaScript, but the window is trapped by not being user-resizable. Useless. JavaScript control in most browsers is feeble. It's not so bad on the Macintosh, where you cannot turn off the menu bar, but in Windows people love to "accidentally" render pop-up images unprintable by removing the menu bar, toolbars etc. iCab is consistently the best browser for dealing with JavaScript.

JavaScript can be filtered and blocked, with iCab doing that very well. Flash pages are private code that cannot be filtered, modified and you are ever greater at the mercy of the site.

Also, sites that refuse to cater for non-Flash, non-JavaScript users mean that you can't block all JS and Flash permanently to avoid pop-ups and CPU-thieving Flash adverts (older PCs can be totally ground to a halt by Flash ads, especially thanks to terrible threading in Firefox).

Also, Flash has bandwidth issues and accessibility issues. Where I was working a few years ago, we had people from Macromedia over to discuss using Flash and accessibility came up. Macromedia were aware of the problems with Flash and accessibility but I don't know that it was ever solved.

Finally, Flash only works on systems that support the needed plugin version. Mac OS 9 only supports up to Flash 7, I think. Linux may or may not now have Flash 8, but Flash is already at v9 for Windows.

You must be very careful to not exclude potential visitors, be they disabled, or Linux users, or Mac OS 9 users, or people who have Flash disabled.

I also despise Java applets (Java eats inordinate quantities of RAM utterly needlessly) but the Web for the most part has abandoned Java applets, to my great delight, and only the odd demo or chat client still needs it. If only Flash would likewise be restricted to the likes of video games, animations, and Web-based video.

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted November 07, 2006 06:27      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
Stay away from Flash!!!
(On that note, I'm under-impressed by the website for that 'web designer.')

I know that you don't like Flash, dragonman, but don't really know why. Would you care to tell us more? I ask this out of curiosity, and am not meaning it in an aggressive or critical way.

I do agree that not many site designers seem able to use it with enough restraint, reminding one of the early days of the web, when garish colours and horrors like flashing type were common. But it is possible to build a good looking site with some Flash, and a photographer friend of my wife and I, Carol Sharp, has a gorgeous site that makes extensive use of Flash, though I imagine it must have been very expensive to produce.

You're wrong, though - it does not make extensive use of Flash...it uses Javascript.

uilleann pointed out accessibility issues, for which there are many, but I understand that they've addressed some of these in newer versions. Nonetheless, it still leads to poor design, and hell...people should be concerned about how their site appears to crawlers when all their content is in Flash.

What I am against is Flash being used needlessly for navigation or simple content presentation. HTML + CSS can produce very nice layouts and a 'rich' interface. This can be assisted with "AJAX" or other similar Javascript techniques to make certain things 'snap' more...but fallback modes should exist for people without JS. Flash should be typically be reserved for multimedia presentation and major interaction (i.e. sound/video players, animations, and games). Flash *excels* at this last set of things, and has really become the least common denominator for multimedia presentation, and I'm actually quite pleased with how well this works. That being said, I detest having my browsing experience mucked up by music that automatically plays, links that must dance and break my history, and just want to see information presented clearly.

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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Mel
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Icon 1 posted November 07, 2006 07:43      Profile for Mel     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by maximile:


And if you're interested, I'll make you a website for free, and I'll host it until it starts to get busy, as long as I can put my name at the bottom and link to it from my portfolio. You'd have to be prepared to wait a few weeks, though, cause I have course stuff to do. (I won't be offended if you'd rather do it yourself or pay someone to do it for you, of course.) PM me if you're interested at all.

Will definitely take you up on that! In your website you said you like to keep things simple, and that's just what I'd want.
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maximile

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Icon 1 posted November 07, 2006 10:41      Profile for maximile   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by uilleann:
...Flash...JavaScript...Java applets

It seems to me that they each have their place. Flash is for Homestar Runner and Xiao Xiao. Javascript is for Gmail and Meebo. And there are some things that to me wouldn't feel right in Flash. Things like the cool things on complexification.net and the nice Processing demos. I don't know why I prefer them to be Java applets.
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