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» The Geek Culture Forums   » Techno-Talking   » Math-a-holics and Code Junkies   » Please help!!!!!!!! i would really appreciate it!!!!!!!!!!!!! I REALLY NEED HELP!!!!! (Page 2)

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Author Topic: Please help!!!!!!!! i would really appreciate it!!!!!!!!!!!!! I REALLY NEED HELP!!!!!
GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted March 30, 2006 14:52      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Spraying WD40 on the shaft is more apt than you might think.

I don't recall the specific oil being used on this turbine, but a sleeve bearing is essentially a solid sleeve of metal with an inside diameter slightly larger than that of the shaft. Each end of the sleeve has a seal and there are several holes in the sides of the sleeve through which oil is continually pumped. The oil creates a film that the shaft rides on, so the shaft does not contact the sleeve during normal operation.

So, for all intents and purposes, WD40 is being sprayed on the shaft at all times [Smile]

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Worst. Celibate. Ever.

Posts: 6364 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Alan!
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Icon 1 posted March 30, 2006 17:06      Profile for Alan!     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Quote of the week (no context please)

quote:
"Spraying WD40 on the shaft is more apt than you might think."


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Alan!

Two rabbis, a priest, and an awkward silence after there's no intelligible punch line to this joke, walk into a bar.

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cheryl
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Icon 1 posted March 30, 2006 23:59      Profile for cheryl   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
i just did these sort of uestions in physics the other day, damn i cant remeber anything from it! thats bad [Eek!]

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dont bother running, you'll only die tired!

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Chesty
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Icon 1 posted March 31, 2006 08:33      Profile for Chesty         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
final question before i rendermy judgement.
What kind of turbine is this?

Because if it's burning deisel fuel it has already been determined by the eco-police that it is bad and therefore should be put down permanently.
If it is hydro then the poor fishies have been blocked from going upstream long enough and it should be dismantled.
If nuclear (pronounced nucular), it is - despite being clean and safe - scary and should never have happened in the first place.
If it is burning coal it keeps the sodding blackfaces busy, out of the pubs and off the dole so run it till it blows.

Posts: 416 | From: The Beach | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted March 31, 2006 14:55      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It's a steam turbine at a paper plant. The steam is produced by burning unusable scrap wood, bark and such along with some local area refuse. The environmental benefits are probably questionable due to the emissions generated, but they are using renewable resources (farmed wood) and things that would otherwise be landfilled to generate the steam.

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Worst. Celibate. Ever.

Posts: 6364 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted March 31, 2006 19:36      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
And the correct answer was indeed "Shut it down"

The mutiple harmonics of running speed is symptomatic of looseness in the bearing. The shaft isn't being held in place properly by the load pressing it into the fluid film.

The actual cause turned out to be a plugged oil line that caused too little oil to be pumped into the bearing, resulting in heat build up that thinned the oil and reduced the dynamic stiffness in the system. If allowed to continue running, the shaft probably would have bowed enough from the heat to contact the bearing walls and wipe out the bearing.

In the best case scenario for not shutting down, the safety systems would shut it down before it came completely apart, but days of production would still be lost pulling the upper housing and replacing the bearing. The actual shutdown and repair took about six hours out of the production schedule.

It was kinda cool to see how close you all were to the real answer even without the training I've had. It was also interesting (and a little disappointing) to realize just how much information I left out when I posted the problem. I take a lot of what I know for granted, it would seem. I wear a lot of hats in my job, but teacher isn't one of them. I'm wondering if maybe it should be.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted April 01, 2006 05:42      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Steen_______________I wish I had known about this topic sooner, I worked for thirty two years as a Toolmaker/Machine Builder. Vibration analysis was just getting started at the Plant I worked at, and was considered VooDoo by many. In the case you cited it would have been the Vib. team and the Plant Manager arguing about what to do, then I would get a call to come check this out. I usually just listened and sometimes felt for Vib, though I would also use a broom handle against the bearing and my thumb in my ear, good call. At my former plant I usually had more senority than the plant manager and they did respect age/knowledge there, however the younger engineers were a real pain, in the sitterdowner. The problem with book learning is they don't teach what to do if the plan doesn't work.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Stereo

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Icon 12 posted April 01, 2006 06:30      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
It was kinda cool to see how close you all were to the real answer even without the training I've had.

Apart from me confusing a sleeve bearing with a roller bearing. [Embarrassed] Good thing I left mech. eng. for comp. sci.! [Big Grin]

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Eppur, si muove!

Galileo Galilei

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Chesty
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Icon 1 posted April 01, 2006 09:20      Profile for Chesty         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The WD 40 would have loosed that clog.
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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted April 01, 2006 20:08      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TheMoMan wrote:
Vibration analysis was just getting started at the Plant I worked at, and was considered VooDoo by many.

That's still the case in a lot of plants. I can't even count how many times I've found sensors knocked off, wires cut and the like by maintenance workers who seem to believe that the monitoring systems are going to take their jobs away.

In the case you cited it would have been the Vib. team and the Plant Manager arguing about what to do, then I would get a call to come check this out.

That was actually the case. They called on my company (and got me) to give them a second opinion about what was going on. The manager's opinion was that looseness should be expected because it was a shaft floating in oil and not held in place by rolling elements. It took a bit to convince him of the seriousness of the issue.

I usually just listened and sometimes felt for Vib, though I would also use a broom handle against the bearing and my thumb in my ear, good call.

I think that's how the whole concept of vibration analysis got started [Smile]

Posts: 6364 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted April 01, 2006 20:19      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Stereo wrote:
Apart from me confusing a sleeve bearing with a roller bearing. [Embarrassed] Good thing I left mech. eng. for comp. sci.! [Big Grin]

I went through college for CompSci and after many detours, I wound up doing this, so don't assume that the engineering courses you've taken won't get used later in life. It's interesting and challenging, though, and beats the heck out of being clown for kids birthday parties, repairing video games, making car windshields and most of the other jobs I've bounced through.

The most important thing I learned in college was that there was no way I could actually write software for a living. But, much like my now lapsed hazardous waste handling certification, it did provide me with a pretty bit of paper that says I'm capable of doing something that I don't really want to do. [Roll Eyes]

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted April 02, 2006 03:47      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Steen___________________The one problem with the equipment that the place I retired from had, was that there was now way to get an audio feed so that some one could listen to a bearing. I found that even the dumbest manager could be convinced if they heard the noise in the bearing housing, and then move the probe to a quiet place, I still have my engine stephoscope from when I did car work.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5836 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted April 02, 2006 07:21      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
/me switches to sales mode for a moment

That's not a problem at all. We have an adapter for their analyzers has a headphone jack on it. This alllows you hear and collect the data at the same time. It's very popular with other customers for exactly the reasons you describe. You'll want one for each analyzer, I assume, and a spare or two?

/me feels slimy and needs a shower now

We do have an adapter like that. The volume knob is a bit large and easily broken off, but otherwise it does work fairly well. That's actually what was used to capture the .wav files I mentioned earlier.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted April 02, 2006 14:44      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Steen________________I retired 25 months ago, from a plant that is on the chopping block to save money.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5836 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted April 02, 2006 17:56      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I wasn't really trying to sell anything, just taking advantage of a humorous way of mentioning that the old listen-to-the-bearing trick is still in use. I've made a point of not actually saying which company I work for in any place I post online to reduce the chances of being dooced and playing salesman would not be a good way to do that.

Sorry to hear about the plant going on the chopping block, though. Hopefully there are replacement jobs in the area.

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Worst. Celibate. Ever.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted April 02, 2006 18:30      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Steen__________________Yeah I miss working but not bad enough to go back to that place, besides they bought me out. Paid me a lot of money to go into retirement, I was qualified by years of service and I had 87 points (age+years of service) you only needed 85, I just have not turned 62.5 yet.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Chesty
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Icon 1 posted April 02, 2006 19:33      Profile for Chesty         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
There is a lot to be said for preventative maintenance but you can also overdo it.

I had a '74 2002 that I sent to a machine shop to get the head shaved. Mr Micrometer wasn't exactly all he should have been and I ended up with a head about one schmidgen too short. After assembling the engine with care and installing it I cranked it ocer and Vroooooommm ticktickticktick. I immediatly shut down and took off the head to see what was amiss. #2 piston had a litle groove whose cause was readily apparent - the valve was smacking the piston at the top of the stroke.

Now I should have bought a new head and started all over, but i was antsy to drive. I put it back together and figgered I could drive it till it broke then put a spare engine i had inthe basement in.

I sold the car four years later - it kept ticking but hauled endless ass. The guy I sold it to said he planned on rebuilding the engine...

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Doco

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Icon 1 posted April 02, 2006 20:40      Profile for Doco   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Wow - I stop looking at a thread and you guys turn it around into a pretty cool discussion.

I find it very cool that you can look at such a graph (cool that you can find test equipment to produce such a graph) and from that determine what the heck is going on. I am too into the digital logic and computers to be very good at the gear head things.

But I am learning - I am working more on the electrical side of things though - I bought a couple of pieces of woodworking equipment that happen to have 3 phase motors. I don't have 3 phase available at my home so now I have to look at either getting a rotary converter or replacing the motors. The motors are a 1/2HP for a radial drill press, and a 5HP for a cabinet saw. More power than anything else in my shop - yet they sit there silent - mocking me to get them runnning.... sigh - if only I had more time.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted April 03, 2006 04:01      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Doco________________________Don't be too hard on your self. There is a device that hooks up to the single phase and tricks the motor into thinking it is on a three phase bus, however the output will not be full horsepower but for most home shops should do, try looking in such magazines as Popular Mechanics and Sceince. Or if you want total control go DC motors and SCR drives from the single var. speed and torque.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5836 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged


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