homeGeek CultureWebstoreeCards!Forums!Joy of Tech!AY2K!webcam

The Geek Culture Forums


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Geek Culture Forums   » Techno-Talking   » Math-a-holics and Code Junkies   » Why is it? (Page 1)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!  
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Author Topic: Why is it?
Zargof McBain
Mini Geek
Member # 3856

Member Rated:
1
Icon 5 posted April 18, 2005 11:35      Profile for Zargof McBain     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Why is it that all the cool and interesting programming languages are never actually used?

For example, when I was at Uni I learnt Smalltalk, Haskell, Java and CCS (calculus of communicating systems). Of those that I learnt the ones that really interested me were CCS and Haskell, but I after graduating, I have never found any instance of anyone actually using them to do anything interesting. Now all I ever seem to program in is C++, a bit of Java, and a few shell scripts (if you can call that programming).

What obscure or interesting languages does everyone wish was used more?

--------------------
Smile. It makes people wonder what you're thinking

Posts: 75 | From: A dark place | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
maia
Alpha Geek
Member # 3778

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted April 18, 2005 11:44      Profile for maia     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I like Ruby. When I learned it in college it was still mainly just in Japan, but it has since become more popular. Very fun and powerful little OOL.

--------------------
Nothing is too petty to be thoroughly discussed.

Posts: 316 | From: United States | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
drunkennewfiemidget
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 2814

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted April 18, 2005 11:51      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I remember my grade 12 programming class they taught us a program called TURING (I'm sure the name was in fact, ripped off).. it was a programming language developed (I think) at the University of Toronto.

It wasn't very useful, and bared a slight resemblance to PASCAL, but it was fun, and what could be cooler than a language with a native function called 'drawfillmapleleaf'?

Posts: 4897 | From: Cambridge, ON, Canada | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Zargof McBain
Mini Geek
Member # 3856

Member Rated:
1
Icon 1 posted April 18, 2005 12:07      Profile for Zargof McBain     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I've not used Ruby, but IIRC it's very similar to Smalltalk. What is it they say, there are no new ideas, just old ones repackaged. [Smile]

--------------------
Smile. It makes people wonder what you're thinking

Posts: 75 | From: A dark place | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Koboldskind
Geek-in-Training
Member # 3849

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted April 18, 2005 12:16      Profile for Koboldskind     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't know how similar Smalltalk and Ruby really are, but one thing they both have going for them: everything is an object, there's no primitives. In Ruby, you can do cool things like CODE] 5.times{doStuff} [/CODE] ... it doesn't get much niftier that that =)
I learned a bit of Haskell, too, back in CS, but that didn't make me too happy, to be honest

We should all go back to Assembler [Wink]

--------------------
In the Beginning, there was nothing, which exploded ...

Posts: 36 | From: Germany | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
N9IWP
Geek
Member # 1229

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted April 18, 2005 12:17      Profile for N9IWP     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hey ! I had a class that used Turing. The class was on code analysis- O(n) vs O(n^2) vs O (n log n)type stuff, so quite a bit was psuedocode, but we also used Turing. I think we were "beta testers" and sent feedback about the language

Brian

Posts: 181 | From: Southeast MN | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
jfw
Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
Member # 1923

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted April 18, 2005 19:34      Profile for jfw     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zargof McBain:
What obscure or interesting languages does everyone wish was used more?

The Ur-Father of obscure and interesting languages: LISP.

What other computer language would use, as a standard first-semester exercise, a full interpreter for the language itself?

Posts: 20 | From: Boxboro Massachusetts | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Alan!
Geek
Member # 1261

Icon 11 posted April 18, 2005 20:35      Profile for Alan!     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
How about ASP Classic?!

--------------------
Alan!

Two rabbis, a priest, and an awkward silence after there's no intelligible punch line to this joke, walk into a bar.

Posts: 219 | From: Perth, Western Australia | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
crazykidqueso05
Geek Larva
Member # 3854

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted April 19, 2005 13:09      Profile for crazykidqueso05     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I learned..or tried to learn C++ the last year my old high school offered it. I passed the course...then the next year they began teaching Java...

...stupid question..is HTML considered code?

--------------------
These boots were made for walkin' and that's what they're gonna do, theses boots are made for walkin', they're gonna walk all over you!

YIM: crazykidqueso05

Posts: 25 | From: Texas | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stereo

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
Member # 748

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted April 19, 2005 14:03      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by crazykidqueso05:
...stupid question..is HTML considered code?

If you consider "code" as in lines of code created using a programming language: no. HTML is a markup language, meant for altering the viewing of whatever is in-between. If it doesn't allow you to loop, branch, and purposedly change the state of memory (assigning values to variables, constants and other handles, if you prefer), it is not a programming language, and thus doesn't produce code.

If you consider "code" as in a tool allowing the encoding of a text from one alphabet* to another, yes, up to some point. It could be considered so as it uses words* that alter the way the content is expressed. What may be seen as a purely-text file is actually a visual file; so HTML encodes visual effects with text-based words*. But it's stretchnig the definition a bit.

Now, if your definition of "code" is neither, please specify.

*"Alphabet" and "word" as defined in information theory.

--------------------
Eppur, si muove!

Galileo Galilei

Posts: 2289 | From: Gatineau, Quebec, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doco

SuperFan!
Member # 371

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted April 19, 2005 14:29      Profile for Doco   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm with Stereo - HTML is not "code". Neither are most Excel spreadsheets or Access projects. You can do some pretty cool things in all of those, and having a programming mindset helps you with doing the more advanced things - but I wouldn't call them "coding".

BUT many people use "coding" for HTML, Excel, etc - and in some wierd ways you could see it as such. Especially if you lump javascript and dynamic-html all into the "HTML". Or if you start doing VB in your spreadsheet. The definition of what is or isn't "code" can get pretty fuzzy.

I guess as someone who chooses to call myself a "Software Engineer" (maybe it's a supriority complex?) but if you aren't writing stuff in a general puprpose language I don't see it as coding.

Posts: 419 | From: Minneapolis, MN | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
spungo
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 1089

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted April 19, 2005 14:49      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I would go in the opposite direction - not only is html 'code', but so, in a way, is documentation, commentry, etc. Why? Because all these things are vital elements of a work in progress (and you should never fool yourself that any piece of software is 'finished').

Maintainability is always more important than functionality - after all, broken functionality can always be fixed if the project is otherwise well-written.

--------------------
Shameless plug. (Please forgive me.)

Posts: 6529 | From: Noba Scoba | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 1769

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted April 19, 2005 15:34      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'd call HTML 'code', it controls the behaviour of the computer, just in a non-procedural language.

Likewise, spreadsheets, shell-scripts, and entries in configuration files are 'code' in my book.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zargof McBain
Mini Geek
Member # 3856

Member Rated:
1
Icon 1 posted April 19, 2005 15:48      Profile for Zargof McBain     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
I'd call HTML 'code', it controls the behaviour of the computer, just in a non-procedural language.

Likewise, spreadsheets, shell-scripts, and entries in configuration files are 'code' in my book.

Yay! The old "is HTML code" argument. [Smile]

I have to disagree, I don't think HTML is code, it is more akin to using a word processor, as Stereo says, it is a markup language. HTML merely tells a program (usually a web browser) how to display text and other primitive constructs such as images, tables etc. It is up to the web browser to decide how these are displayed. HTML does not control the computer, rather it is the web browser that does.

Granted with websites there are a lot of other things you can do with Java, PHP etc., but that wasn't the question asked.

--------------------
Smile. It makes people wonder what you're thinking

Posts: 75 | From: A dark place | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
drunkennewfiemidget
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 2814

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted April 19, 2005 18:18      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm with Stereo. HTML is a markup language, as the acronym says.
Posts: 4897 | From: Cambridge, ON, Canada | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
quantumfluff
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 450

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted April 19, 2005 18:31      Profile for quantumfluff     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by spungo: I would go in the opposite direction - not only is html 'code', but so, in a way, is documentation, commentry, etc. Why? Because all these things are vital elements of a work in progress ...
I see it a little differently. Executable content is CODE. All the other artifacts - documentation, test scripts, packaging tools, schema definitions - are part of the SOURCE. I keep everything related to a project under revision control, often the mail about it as well.

But, I think this discussion is about "what are interesting (Turing complete) languages" rather than "what is part of your source tree". I don't think of HTML as a language because it has no algorithmic expressivity. A really good WYSIWYG HTML editor can feel like a word processor yet store the document in HTML. In fact, bad ones, like MS Word, still produce HTML. It's a difficult argument to make that selecting bold in a word processor is "programming".

Posts: 2902 | From: 5 to 15 meters above sea level | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
crazykidqueso05
Geek Larva
Member # 3854

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted April 19, 2005 20:48      Profile for crazykidqueso05     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
*ponders going onto hiding*

I was just curious..I've heard both. I didn't know one why or the other...C++ and HTML both gave me headaches while I was learning them...

--------------------
These boots were made for walkin' and that's what they're gonna do, theses boots are made for walkin', they're gonna walk all over you!

YIM: crazykidqueso05

Posts: 25 | From: Texas | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Tech Angel
Alpha Geek
Member # 908

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted April 19, 2005 22:09      Profile for Tech Angel     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
What obscure or interesting languages does everyone wish was used more?
Anyone remember FOCAL (FOrmula CALculator)? I used it in college on a DEC PDP-8 II, complete with teletype input and a punch paper tape to "record" the program for reloading later in a tape reader. I still have some rolls of the punched tape with my programs.

Other obscure ones I've used:
- RPL, or Reverse Polish Lisp (a combination of RPN, Forth, and Lisp first used on the HP-28C, arguably a "tiny computer")
- So-called "Synthetic Programming" (SP) on the HP-41 series of calculators which exploited a bug in the calculator's ROM so that users could recombine bytes in ways not intended by HP. With SP you could make the HP-41 do all sorts of additional neat things involving tone generation, expanded memory functions, and creating strange-looking characters in the segmented LCD display. I loved playing around with this!

Obscure, for sure -- but I can't say I wish they were used more.

--------------------
We must be the change we want to see in the world. -Mahatma Ghandi

Posts: 330 | From: the Great State of Confusion | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 1769

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted April 20, 2005 03:18      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tech Angel:

Other obscure ones I've used:
- RPL, or Reverse Polish Lisp (a combination of RPN, Forth, and Lisp first used on the HP-28C, arguably a "tiny computer")
- So-called "Synthetic Programming" (SP) on the HP-41 series of calculators which exploited a bug in the calculator's ROM so that users could recombine bytes in ways not intended by HP. With SP you could make the HP-41 do all sorts of additional neat things involving tone generation, expanded memory functions, and creating strange-looking characters in the segmented LCD display. I loved playing around with this!

Wow, another HP-41C geek!

I've had my 41C since 1980, and was an active member of the PPC (a HP calculator user group) back in the day. I still have my 41C, and often use an emulation of the 41C on my PC at work.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
GameMaster
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 1173

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted April 20, 2005 07:28      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think HTML has to be "code," even if it isn't strictly a programming or scripting language. You still have to "encode" your intent correctly (at least for standards compliant browsers), in order to have the computer at the client side "decode" the proper meaning from the given markup. Moreover, JS included in pages, PHP or ASP used to generate dynamic pages, cgi and perl scripts that generate pages, and even the evil beast (hopefully slain now) that is DHTML have blurred the line so far between "code" and "not code" that I don't see a reason in seperating them anylonger.

LISP is fun. Because of the cluster I've been getting into shell scripts and fortran. Programming Language Concepts is taught in ML, Prolog and Java... I don't think I'll see much ML or Prolog in the "real world" -- do you?

--------------------
My Site

Posts: 3038 | From: State of insanity | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
drunkennewfiemidget
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 2814

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted April 20, 2005 08:27      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
<off-topic>
Every time I read "Why is it?" I think of Cartman screaming in that South Park episode in the first season:

"Why is it, that everything today, has involved things, either going in, or COMING OUT OF MY ASS?!"

</off-topic>

Back to your regularly scheduled debate.

Posts: 4897 | From: Cambridge, ON, Canada | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
quantumfluff
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 450

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted April 20, 2005 09:30      Profile for quantumfluff     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tech Angel:
Anyone remember FOCAL (FOrmula CALculator)? ...

Can I have your baby? I've got FOCAL for CP/M on paper tape somewhere in my attic! I had forgetten about that.

I used to love playing with paper tape. Back in college, Thomas J. Watson was the commencement speaker one year. It was a time when students had banners which said things like "Free the Gainsboro 7" or "Avenge the so-and-so 9". I put together a program to print banners on paper tape, so we could make paper arm bands which said "Free the IBM 360".

Posts: 2902 | From: 5 to 15 meters above sea level | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
Zeus
Newbie Larva
Member # 4879

Rate Member
Icon 6 posted February 03, 2006 11:47      Profile for Zeus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I program in C# and JAVA (C# is so much better). Just want to say that I think there is some real truth in that saying about Chuck Norris - I just watched the Presidents Man and he really never cries.

Oh yeah - riting programs running over networks and doing funny stuff on other people's computers can be fun. There is no greater satisfaction than seeing your lecturer get angry...whahahahaha.....

Imature...I know..been told...

--------------------
If you can't convince them, confuse them.

Posts: 7 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
The real Stealth
Geek
Member # 4615

Member Rated:
5
Icon 10 posted February 03, 2006 14:28      Profile for The real Stealth   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm still using TI-BASIC... but hey it does what I need...latter mabey I'll move on.

--------------------
The one and only "§†eal†h the Fallen One"...Between Your life And mine are Three realities, Yours, The real one, and Mine. They they form a bridge shapped in the letters D-O-_-N-O-T-_-C-R-O-S-S.

Posts: 141 | From: Battle Creek, MI | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
nerdwithnofriends
Uber Geek
Member # 3773

Icon 1 posted February 03, 2006 16:26      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I like python. It's a beautifully powerful language that's faster than perl and less memory-intensive than java. All it needs is a little bytecode optimizer to improve performance, and it will eventually take over the world.

Another thing that makes it so cool is it's embedability/extendability. If I were to write a suite of applications, I'd embed python in every one, so that it was possible to link them all together and do cool stuff like connect to a web server to automatically populate a spreadsheet.


The only stupid programming language I've ever used was pascal. I used it for one semester in my 9th grade programming class and then forgot it.

--------------------
"The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of a digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top of a mountain or in the petals of a flower." - Robert M. Pirsig

Posts: 948 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged


All times are Eastern Time
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | Geek Culture Home Page

© 2015 Geek Culture

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.4.0



homeGeek CultureWebstoreeCards!Forums!Joy of Tech!AY2K!webcam