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Author Topic: Osama bin Laden is dead
Grummash

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Icon 1 posted May 02, 2011 12:11      Profile for Grummash     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
GrumpySteen, for all he likes to portray himself as a cynic, has proved his deep insightfulness by posting the quote from MLK Jr.

The scenes of celebration beamed around the world from the USA show the shameful attitude of a particular section of that country's society. I fully appreciate that the USA is a young country with little experience of large scale atrocities and the subsequent catharsis of those experiences, however, as a citizen of a nation which has much to feel ashamed about, I cannot help but feel that quiet reflection would serve our American friends better than vulgar triumphalism.

From a purely pragmatic point of view, I can see the economic benefit of shooting O-B-L rather than capturing him and putting him on trial. However, I would have preferred a scenario whereby my country paid the bill for an open trial instead of the USA deciding they had the right to shoot him summarily.

I don't know whether the decision to shoot O-B-L was taken by the American President, or the leader of the American forces, or the Officer in charge on that particular day...but it is a decision that has has brought the American approach to the war on terror down to the same level as the terrorists themselves... and we, as allies of the USA, are tainted as a result of this.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 02, 2011 13:13      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Grummash:
The scenes of celebration beamed around the world from the USA show the shameful attitude of a particular section of that country's society. I fully appreciate that the USA is a young country with little experience of large scale atrocities and the subsequent catharsis of those experiences, however, as a citizen of a nation which has much to feel ashamed about, I cannot help but feel that quiet reflection would serve our American friends better than vulgar triumphalism.

Celebrating anyones death, even Bin Laden's, doesn't sit well with me either, but...

a little 'Vulgar Triumphalism' in this case is pretty understandable.

Let's wait 400 years to see if Americans are holding annual "burn Bin Laden in effigy" parties before we get too critical of their reaction.

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Ugh, MightyClub
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Icon 1 posted May 02, 2011 13:43      Profile for Ugh, MightyClub     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Amen, MoMan. I understand that people closer to the 9/11 tragedy than I are relieved, but i got a sour feeling in my stomache reading about the celebrations. Human nature, to a degree, but we certainly didn't like the images of people celebrating the Trade Center attack.

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Ugh!

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted May 02, 2011 14:57      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Some of the people out there in the streets are celebrating a death. Others are just celebrating relief. It can make you giddy - I've been known to dance and cry, sometimes even at the same time. Osama's death did not provoke that kind of reaction from me, but I'm sure it did for some.
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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted May 02, 2011 16:12      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm not jubilant that anyone is dead (i.e. dancing on his grave), but I think 'relief' does sum up my feeling about all this. We're still in a very messy situation, but a serious source of evil is gone, and that's a Good Thing (TM). [IMHO, YMMV]

P.S. I do have a bit of dread about the whole 'dancing in the streets' stuff - I kind of think that makes us look pretty bad. This is not a friggin' World Cup that we just won. [Frown]

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted May 02, 2011 22:23      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Damn phones!!

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hzn2dQHiUZBXHeHm6Lv78Uz6SwAA?docId=aaf5f9e12731497d8a3147a0e47899d4


Interesting news story.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/05/out-of-osamas-death-a-fake-quotation-is-born/238220/

And now May 1 1945/ May 1 2011

Hitler / UBL

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted May 03, 2011 00:00      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GrumpySteen:
"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy." - Martin Luther King, Jr

Sorry but that is a fake.

Here is something from "Where do we go From Here"

ďIím concerned about a better world. Iím concerned about justice; Iím concerned about brotherhood; Iím concerned about truth. And when one is concerned about that, he can never advocate violence. For through violence you may murder a murderer, but you canít murder murder. Through violence you may murder a liar, but you canít establish truth. Through violence you may murder a hater, but you canít murder hate through violence. Darkness cannot put out darkness; only light can do that.Ē

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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted May 03, 2011 01:03      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think this may be the nicest, least argumentative "hot" topic we have covered here in a cival manner in a long time here.

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"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted May 03, 2011 09:15      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by DoctorWho:
quote:
Originally posted by GrumpySteen:
[qb] "I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy." - Martin Luther King, Jr

Sorry but that is a fake.


Don't care. The fake quote still sums up how I feel about the idiots cheering and celebrating.

Since we have a lot of pedants here, however, I will fix it.

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy." - Anonymous

Happy now?

--------------------
Worst. Celibate. Ever.

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Erbo
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Icon 1 posted May 03, 2011 16:06            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
OK. I will admit I've done my share of crowing since learning of bin Laden's death at the hand of U.S. Navy SEALs.

But I know that this isn't the end of it...much as that twit in the Oval Office would like to believe it is.

Right now, whoever's in charge of al-Qaeda (Zawahiri?) either has rocks in his head, or he's planning to hit us as soon as possible with everything he can manage. And there are plenty of other people out there who'd like to hurt us, too. We must remain vigilant.

So, yes, May 1, 2011 will be a day long remembered. Remember it, as you do September 11, 2001. But we mustn't let our guard down. Not for a minute. Not for a second.

So any enjoyment of bin Laden's death I had has now dwindled to a grim satisfaction...and a sense of alert watchfulness.

His death has paid back a small part of the interest our enemies owe us for 9/11. But the principal hasn't even been touched yet.

Never forgive. Never forget. Never again.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 03, 2011 18:09      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
But I know that this isn't the end of it...much as that twit in the Oval Office would like to believe it is....

...Right now, whoever's in charge of al-Qaeda (Zawahiri?) either has rocks in his head, or he's planning to hit us as soon as possible with everything he can manage. And there are plenty of other people out there who'd like to hurt us, too. We must remain vigilant.

You know, Erbo, until now this thread has been blessedly free of cheap party-political shots, but I suppose it couldn't last. *sigh*

Here's what 'The Twit In The Oval Office' actually said.

quote:
Yet his death does not mark the end of our effort. There's no doubt that al Qaeda will continue to pursue attacks against us. We must and we will remain vigilant at home and abroad.
Remarkably similar to your words...

--------------------
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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted May 03, 2011 18:12      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
WTF, Erbo? Seriously? The current president succeeded where his predecessor frakkin' failed and you're calling him a twit? Have you no decency? No respect? No honor? What the fuck is the matter with you??

And what the fuck makes you think anyone thinks this is over? NO ONE BUT YOU has said it's over. The State Department put Americans abroad on alert the minute the kill was confirmed and the FBI has had its knickers in knots over domestic threats ever since as well. It's all over the goddam news and if you'd pulled your head out of your ass for thirty seconds on Sunday night you'd've known that.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted May 03, 2011 18:20      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
 -

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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Erbo
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Icon 1 posted May 03, 2011 19:53            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
WTF, Erbo? Seriously? The current president succeeded where his predecessor frakkin' failed and you're calling him a twit? Have you no decency? No respect? No honor? What the fuck is the matter with you??

Obama did not succeed. The U.S. military and intelligence apparatus, of which Obama just now happens to be the current C-in-C, succeeded. Contrary to what Sir Golfsalot thinks, not everything is about him.

And remember, when Obama took office, he effectively continued the policies set down by his predecessor--yes, George W. Bush--with regard to the War on Terror, including such things as not immediately closing down Gitmo, as he had promised to do during his campaign. I seem to recall that he took an awful lot of flak from the hard lefties--possibly including some on this very site--for doing so. You can't snipe at Obama for doing exactly what "Chimpy McBushitler" did, and then claim that the positive results of those policies are now solely attributable to His Holy Lightworkiness. That's trying to have your cake, and eat it too.

quote:
And what the fuck makes you think anyone thinks this is over? NO ONE BUT YOU has said it's over. The State Department put Americans abroad on alert the minute the kill was confirmed and the FBI has had its knickers in knots over domestic threats ever since as well. It's all over the goddam news and if you'd pulled your head out of your ass for thirty seconds on Sunday night you'd've known that.
You just COMPLETELY misinterpreted what I said. I don't think it's over, and I never said it was over. In fact, I said just the opposite.

What I said was that Obama probably now thinks it's over, i.e., that he can use this as an excuse to "declare victory and go home" from Afghanistan and Iraq. But to do so as long as those areas remain petri dishes of anti-American hate is just asking for another attack on innocents in the U.S. Right now, we have shown that we, not al-Qaeda, are the "strong horses" (to use ObL's terminology) in the world, and we should be pushing that advantage for all it's worth.

(In particular, I'd like to be asking some pointed questions of the Pakistanis right now. You expect me to believe they didn't know where ObL was all these years, right under their noses? In this country, harboring a fugitive is, at least, a felony. And Pakistan is supposed to have on the close order of 100 nuclear weapons by now. Do we know where they all are? Are we sure? Careful how you answer...guess wrong and you may be rewarded with a mushroom cloud over New York City...)

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 03, 2011 20:32      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
What I said was that Obama probably now thinks it's over

A contention you persist with, even though your words on the topic almost look like they were cut-and-pasted from a transcript of Obama's announcement.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Erbo
Discontinued


Icon 1 posted May 03, 2011 21:09            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Now this is interesting...a report originating from senior military intelligence officials within the White House:
quote:
Please get this out ASAP. Want specific people to know we know.

RE Osama Bin Laden. Significant push to take him out months ago. Senior WH staff resisted. This was cause of much strain between HC [Secretary of State Hillary Clinton] and Obama/[Senior Adviser Valerie] Jarrett. HC and LP [CIA Director Leon Panetta] were in constant communication over matter Ė both attempted to convince administration to act. Administration feared failure and resulting negative impact on president. Intel disgusted over politics over national security. Staff resigned/left. Check timeline to corroborate.

Now Intel already leaking to media facts surrounding how info obtained. Namely from enhanced interrogation efforts via GITMO prisoners. Obama administration placed in corner on this. Some media aware of danger to president RE this and attempting protection. Others looking for further investigation. We are pushing for them to follow through and already meeting with some access.

Point of determination made FOR Obama not BY Obama. Will clarify as details become more clear. Very clear divide between Military and WH. Jarrett marginalized 100% on decision to take out OBL. She played no part. BD [Chief of Staff Bill Daley] worked with LP and HC to form coalition to force CoC [Chain of Command, i.e., Obama] to engage.

IMPORTANT SPECIFIC: When 48 hour go order issued, CoC was told, not requested. Administration scrambled to abort. That order was overruled. This order did not originate from CoC. Repeat Ė this order did not originate from CoC. He complied, but did not originate.

Independent military contacts have confirmed. Stories corroborate one another. This is legit.

The killing of Osama Bin Laden was in fact a Coup within Obama WH.

If true, Obama had to practically be dragged kicking and screaming into ordering the attack on bin Laden--and he even tried, but failed, to STOP it.

Think about that before you give the man too much credit. And think about that while he tries to claim all the credit for himself.

For my part, I will give credit where it's due...to the men and women of the Armed Forces and Military Intelligence who unraveled this mystery over many years, and especially to the brave men of "SEAL Team 6" (not their real name; their real name is classified) who got the job done. In particular, whichever SEAL actually pulled the trigger that shot him, I hope that man never, ever, ever has to buy another drink for himself in his lifetime. (Sadly, I doubt we'll ever know his name. And I understand why it must be that way.)

Oh, and don't put too much stock in what the Obamateur said in front of the cameras. You know he only says what his Teleprompter tells him to say, right?

This photo released by the White House, showing the "war room" as they watched the attack unfold, seems to corroborate this story. Obama's over on one side of the room, still in his golfing duds, and he looks pissed. Hillary, Daley, and Defense Secretary Gates are over on the opposite side of the room.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 03, 2011 21:53      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Lol!

The headline for that article is...

Did Senior Military/Intelligence Officials Overrule President Obama Regarding Mission to Kill Osama Bin Laden?

Erbo, the technical term for for Military people 'overruling' the elected leader is "coup d'ťtat" - and I'm pretty sure if there'd been one I wouldn't have to read about it on a web site that takes the 'birther' nonsense seriously.

I'm finding the Conservative reaction to this story really funny - you guys just *hate* to see Liberals succeed, even (especially?) when it's something you've tried for years to achieve, and failed.

It's really quite twisted. You'd rather believe some bizarre secret-coup fantasy (and praise the coup plotters) than accept that the other side are capable of succeeding where your side failed. Sad, really sad.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted May 03, 2011 22:29      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:

And remember, when Obama took office, he effectively continued the policies set down by his predecessor--yes, George W. Bush--with regard to the War on Terror, including such things as not immediately closing down Gitmo, as he had promised to do during his campaign.

Obama did not succeed. The U.S. military and intelligence apparatus, of which Obama just now happens to be the current C-in-C, succeeded. Contrary to what Sir Golfsalot thinks, not everything is about him.



I have to agree with you on the fact that Obama continued the Bush era counterterrorism tactics. This may have lead to the death of Osama. This also shouldn't be claimed as an Obama victoy, he simply said yes, go for it, and I don't think that anyone else who ran against him in 2008, or Bush, would have said no.

The rest of what you say is, well, ... it ranges from unsupported opinion to bat sh:t crazy ravings.


on a side note, I wonder what this kill means for the future torture of american prisoners.

IF enhanced interrogation lead to the knowledge of the currier, I think many people will say the ends justify the means.

I donít think so. For someone to justify this, they would have to say that Osama, being free in 2011, was generating more hate towards the United States than the knowledge that the US tortures people.

I think that the torture generated more hate than a cassette tape from Osama every year or so.

If torture lead to the capture of Bin Laden, the ends did not justify the means.

ps, What is you nickname for Bush, as he went golfing much more than Obama. Supreme Lord Golfington?

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted May 03, 2011 22:50      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GrumpySteen:
quote:
Originally posted by DoctorWho:
quote:
Originally posted by GrumpySteen:
[qb] "I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy." - Martin Luther King, Jr

Sorry but that is a fake.


Don't care. The fake quote still sums up how I feel about the idiots cheering and celebrating.

Since we have a lot of pedants here, however, I will fix it.

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy." - Anonymous

Happy now?

Actually the only thing I am happy about in this situation is that justice was done. I personally take no happiness in that OBL is dead despite the evils he committed. Looking at it realistically, his organization will rally behind a new leader(s) and will continue to threaten our way of life. More than likely he will be a martyr to them.

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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted May 03, 2011 23:31      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
MAY 1 1945 HITLER
MAY 1 2011 UBL


Hitler has been evoked twice.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted May 04, 2011 00:20      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Erbo:
Please refrain from enormous rants about government, Obama and politics in the news section. It's inappropriate both to the topic at hand and to this entire portion of the forum.

Everyone else:
We all know by know that Erbo isn't going to change his mind. Arguing with him is pointless, so don't. It's not like any of us are taking his word as the gospel truth, so there's no need to refute it. Just let it go.

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted May 04, 2011 00:24      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GrumpySteen:
Erbo:
Please refrain from enormous rants about government, Obama and politics in the news section. It's inappropriate both to the topic at hand and to this entire portion of the forum.

Everyone else:
We all know by know that Erbo isn't going to change his mind. Arguing with him is pointless, so don't. It's not like any of us are taking his word as the gospel truth, so there's no need to refute it. Just let it go.

Its my fault anyways, sorry guys ( and gals).

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 04, 2011 00:55      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Maybe Erbo has a point, I can't put my finger on it, but there's something not quite right about that photo from the Whitehouse...

 -

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted May 04, 2011 01:07      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Fixed again:
"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy." - Jessica Dovey

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Worst. Celibate. Ever.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted May 04, 2011 01:59      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Arguing with a conservative is like trying to teach a pig to sing, You will not get a favorable outcome and all you really do is (urinate off) the pig.

"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." - G.W. Bush, 3/13/02

Tax cuts for the rich trickle down will give the voters what they want.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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