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Author Topic: So how would you test a car.
TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted February 24, 2010 17:50      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ How would we test a DBW car for system failure.

____ Put a chassis Dyno into a huge faraday cage.

____ Take a Microwave oven and break out the glass and metal screen.

____ Add some Ham Band Antennas.

____ Now a truckers CB with a Kicker for good measure.

____ A police radar unit.


Test One have the car idle in gear and watch the dyno.
Test Two fire the police radar at the front of the car.
Test Three turn on the Microwave
Test Four transmit on various bands.

Now repeat with the hood open.
Turn on all EMI sources and see if the car is still working correctly.

Those are my ideas any comments??

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted February 24, 2010 21:18      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Mo,

You missed:
- Tesla coil...
- Running signal unshielded Cat 3 and 5 wires under the car roughly parallel and perpendicular to DbW wires.
- Measure the interference caused by turning on and off other electrical systems in the car.

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littlefish
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Icon 1 posted February 25, 2010 00:36      Profile for littlefish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Don't know what you are talking about, but I know a bit about microwaves.

They have safety interlocks on for a good reason. Make sure the Faraday cage is adequate, and put the damaged microwave beyond use when you are finished with it.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted February 25, 2010 02:16      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ littlefish, I agree. No one should be in the Faraday Cage during testing. A German firm Rohde & Schwarz International They build broadcast equipment and very fine Ham Radio Equipment. They also offer Faraday Cage testing for Auto Makers.

____ I was trying to show that what most people do not think of may be causing the problem of UA in Drive By Wire cars.

____ GameMaster, OH YEAH a tesla coil would fill the bill, Neon Lights, and maybe a Cell Phone stuck up in the visor. The car makers are putting some of their embedded systems in the headliner.

____ If the problem is Electro Magnetic Interference, until the dealer can recreate the EMI how do they know what the problem is.

____ Those that live in North America, turn over your Laptop, Printer, or Scanner and read the part fifteen warning, it should also have been printed in the ( MANUAL ). The Mrs and my self have found that if we bring one of our Cell Phones within ( 5 ) Five feet of the Dial-up Modem that we will lose our connection to the ISP.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted February 26, 2010 10:19      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have a better idea.

How about we drop this nonsense, and move on with our lives?

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted February 26, 2010 12:48      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have an even betterer idea.

Let's do away with cars and have everyone ride bicycles. We'll cut our oil usage by a huge amount, Americans will no longer be regarded as fat pigs (or at least we'll be fat pigs who are healthy) and most of the people who die in car wrecks now will walk away with relatively minor injuries.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted February 26, 2010 12:49      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Lets see. People are dying because they purchased the wrong brand of car, so you want to stop writing about that??

____ From the local union paper:

I watched the News yesterday and saw the woman testirfy about her runaway Toyota. She said she shifted the car into neutral and it didn't help! She even put the car into reverse! Nothing! She forced the brakes with both feet and they were gone within 1 minute. SHE COULD NOT EVEN TURN THE CAR OFF!!! Many Americans say, "just shift into neutral or turn the ignition off - how stupid these people are."

NO! They aren't stupid at all. The problem is in Toyota's computer which controls everything from turning the engine on/off, applying the brakes and shifting gears. Once the computer thinks it is being told to 'floor the pedal' it stops the operator from shifting the transmission. It even stops you from shutting off the car because that is also controlled through the computer! That's why even a highway patrolman could not stop his rampaging Lexus from hitting 120 mph before crashing and killing everyone (4 people) in the car!

Also, while I'm on the subject, the latest discovery is that Toyota's computer is often delaying the braking action by 1 full second! Imagine that you have to hit the brakes and the computer takes one full second to start braking!

____ Kind of makes me want to really look both ways before stepping off the curb.

____ I have seen large Robots go out of control on a shop floor, I DO NOT TRUST DRIVE BY WIRE.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5836 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Grummash

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Icon 1 posted February 26, 2010 13:40      Profile for Grummash     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
car testing suggestion

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...and yet, across the gulf of space, minds immeasurably superior to ours regarded this earth with envious eyes...

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted February 26, 2010 16:41      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ I often drive about with my Tri-band radio, turned on and the squelch set just above the noise floor. You would be amazed at the noise out in the air. Gas Pumps, can be taken out by going KEY DOWN while under the canapy, Drive through fast food resteurants lose their Cash Registers from transmissions.

____ I know when I am near an office with a large LAN, lots of noise, and most hams avoid Toyota Cars and Trucks because because of the RFI Radio Frequency Interference. You just can not get them quiet with out shutting off the engine.

____ Now this: http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/26/autos/congress_oversight_letter_biller/


____ Okay Grummy, I waited forty five minutes and only had half of the Video, so at the end did the tires blow out?? Down in Genesee County during a SkyWarn call out a power line, Very High Voltage +130Kv came down on a hams car. it blew out his tires, but he came out shaken but unharmed, his radios were fried, except for his Handy Talky and he called for help through the repeater with it. The power company already knew that they had lost a transmisson wire, but not where? He is still active in SkyWarn, but he choses his observation points with more care.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted February 26, 2010 18:54      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Loosely OT: Hey MoMan...you never said that there were some Hams like this...

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted February 27, 2010 03:34      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Dragonman97, Two terms "YL" Young Lady "XYL" Your or somebodies wife. Those lovely ladies were fine examples, there are some not so fine examples also.

____ I first thought you were going to show me a picture of a UHF Rover. There are those out too. Like all hobbies there are some weird ones in the mix.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted February 28, 2010 19:23      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
____ Lets see. People are dying because they purchased the wrong brand of car, so you want to stop writing about that??

____ From the local union paper:

I watched the News yesterday and saw the woman testirfy about her runaway Toyota. She said she shifted the car into neutral and it didn't help! She even put the car into reverse! Nothing! She forced the brakes with both feet and they were gone within 1 minute. SHE COULD NOT EVEN TURN THE CAR OFF!!! Many Americans say, "just shift into neutral or turn the ignition off - how stupid these people are."

NO! They aren't stupid at all. The problem is in Toyota's computer which controls everything from turning the engine on/off, applying the brakes and shifting gears. Once the computer thinks it is being told to 'floor the pedal' it stops the operator from shifting the transmission. It even stops you from shutting off the car because that is also controlled through the computer! That's why even a highway patrolman could not stop his rampaging Lexus from hitting 120 mph before crashing and killing everyone (4 people) in the car!

Also, while I'm on the subject, the latest discovery is that Toyota's computer is often delaying the braking action by 1 full second! Imagine that you have to hit the brakes and the computer takes one full second to start braking!

____ Kind of makes me want to really look both ways before stepping off the curb.

____ I have seen large Robots go out of control on a shop floor, I DO NOT TRUST DRIVE BY WIRE.

[citation needed]

It's bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit and I'm fucking sick and tired of reading it.

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted February 28, 2010 21:18      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Seconded.

While I'm admittedly a happy Toyota owner, and potentially biased, I am quite displeased by how Toyota has handled this recall. Even so, while I'm not one to believe everything I hear from a corporate spokesman...Toyota has stated that firmly braking will stop the car, and I have a hard time doubting the validity of that statement. It has largely been said that computers are not at play here, and I have little reason to doubt that. I think there are *clearly* issues with the accelerator pedal assemblies in recent Toyota vehicles, but I find it extremely difficult to believe that common sense strategies in stopping vehicles won't work. If this were the case, I don't see how more people haven't died around the world, nor how such vehicles were ever approved for sales.

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted March 01, 2010 03:59      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Intermittants, How often have you had something misbehave, and when taken to a repair facicity We can't find nothing wrong. Until you can reproduce the problem there is nothing to fix. You DNF lived in an area with stray Mag-Fields (EMI) and other people did not notice them. Did you have something no one else experienced?? Or were you the one that noticed.

____ I have found that if I take a noisy (EMI) computer out to my Ham shack that it will not work as well as a quiet one, if the noise can get out then other noise can get in. Just remember, at 100km/hr 60/mph one second is still 88 feet. Can you spare a sec.

____ From my experience with Auto engineers they are an arrogant lot "Its Differet in the AUTO Industry those rules don't apply" Mentality of that can't happen does not always apply.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted March 01, 2010 07:30      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It doesn't matter. All you're posting is conjecture. The issue that was found has been resolved and it wasn't electronics related. If issues continue, and they're electronics related, then have a field day, but until then, you're just spreading FUD, and I'm sick of reading it.

There are *NO* known issues involving this recall and the car not going out of drive. If you smack it in neutral, IT WILL WORK.

Also, the brake booster system in Toyotas holds a reservoir so that heavy braking, even at full throttle will continue to work as directed for quite some time.

The 1s delay in braking is a complete and utter fabrication.

No other car company in the history of ever has received the kind of coverage this is receiving, and every other car company has committed as bad or far worse.

My last car, a Nissan, it had an ECU problem that could cause the car to randomly stall at highway speeds. Did you even know such a recall happened?

OF COURSE YOU DIDNT, BECAUSE AT THAT POINT, OUR IDIOTIC GOVERNMENTS HADNT BOUGHT THEMSELVES A VESTED INTEREST INTO A FAILING CAR COMPANY, THEREBY MAKING THEM SUDDENLY INTERESTED IN THEIR SUCCESS.

So please, without reliable, scientific, controlled studies on the issues you think exist in these cars, lets move on, hmm?

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Mister Boo

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Icon 1 posted March 01, 2010 13:25      Profile for Mister Boo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
MoMan,
If she truly had tried all she testifeid she did, especially tried locking up the brakes (Which cannot be BDW and have to be a mechanically linked item under Frderal Law- Steering and Brakes cannot be DBW) she could not have sold it as-is to someone who is still driving it without having to rebuild the brakes. As far as the 1second delay, I have only heard that from the Prius when lightly braked while the regen catches up. If you stomp it, you get the mechanical braking which works fine. Please take off the UAW colored glasses, and stop repeating union hype about non-union shops. No offense intended- but I see the Union card pop up fairly often when it isn't needed.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted March 01, 2010 13:52      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mister Boo:
Please take off the UAW colored glasses, and stop repeating union hype about non-union shops.

TheMoMan has spent much of his working life in an environment where mistakes cost lives, I know how that feels, I've worked in similar places myself.

In my determination to never kill a customer, I developed certain habits of mind, habits that aren't easy to turn off at the end of the working day, or when I move to another job where the consequences of my mistakes are far less serious.

The attitudes TheMoMan displays above are how guys like he and I are paid to think. To an outsider, that obsession with quality and safety might look a lot like hype or paranoia, but when I get in a car or a plane, or cross a bridge, I want it to have been designed and built by paranoids like me and TheMoMan.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted March 01, 2010 15:00      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TFD: I *want* someone to have worked that way too! In fact, that's basically why I bought my Toyota years ago with full confidence - I felt that many of the American car companies got far too lax with their quality standards.

Mind you, guess where the majority of the failing brake components were made?

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted March 02, 2010 02:24      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Choices, So I wear UAW Rose Colored Glasses?? Well Over my working years I have had five different Unions represent me. I am now at a point in my life that I do not want to (@#$%^&) the source of my Health insurance. I was really in the middle, we built the machines that the production workers made parts on. I would have prefered to have been with "The American Association of Machinists" Union and not with a production union. I have never blamed the workers for this fiasco, the problem lies with upper management, and their drive to reduce costs.

____ I don't know how much inside information on your company you have to keep secret, But every five years I would have to sign a new Non-Disclosure Agreement. I know about price points, and can we take out a few more cents, We are dealing with huge volume here. The bean counters rule every thing. AT SOME POINT PRICE PER UNIT BECAME AN ISSUE, OR RUSH TO MARKET. I have seen enough internal documents to know how accounting runs production.

____ As to pushing the start button to turn a car off "That sounds too much like MicroShaft and WinBlows."

____ Oh by the way we made parts for the affected Car Maker. I have seen their parts buyers in action.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted March 02, 2010 07:56      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think I would prefer problems with the accelerator sticking

"the problem develops over time, and is more likely to occur in vehicles whose warranty has expired."

Hooray for planned obsolescence!

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted March 02, 2010 08:12      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Artic Cat
Bombardier
Honda
Kawasaki
Polaris
Suzuki
Yamaha

Guess what every one of these ATVs has that no Car does?


A stuck throttle sensor circuit. Why do the ATV and Off Road and Dirt Bike makers get it and not Car makers?

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5836 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted March 03, 2010 15:06      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Basically only ten reports out of One Million that have been returned to their owners. Those are pretty good odds. ISO 9000 Quality 25 Defects/million ISO 9001 18 Defects/Million


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704541304575099900299990856.html

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-03-03/u-s-contacting-toyota-owners-filing-complaints-on-fixed-cars.html

http://www.freep.com/article/20100303/BUSINESS01/100303045/1315/Officials-Drivers-report-trouble-with-fixed-Toyotas

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5836 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted March 03, 2010 16:53      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Umm... you do realize that ISO 900x is a management standard, not a quality standard, right? ISO 900x certified companies can produce completely defective products that will never work so long as they follow the procedures that are in place for producing them and document it all properly.

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Worst. Celibate. Ever.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted March 03, 2010 17:26      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ GS, yes I found that out after we were indoctronated by management about how they were going to track our quality. The big push was to get below World Class of 18 defects/Million then we would be able to be classed as ISO 9001. Management lied to us again.

____ One of the broadcast networks made a big deal about some wag that could induce the acceration at will. Yes he was hooked into the wiring harness. then afterward he showed that the OBDII did not store an engine code. I would hope not OBDII is a smog and emissions device, it only records things relation to tailpipe emissions.

___ Only one company has an event recorder GM they put them in at the urging of their legal department, It has a three axis Magnetic annomaly detector acting as a gyro, inputs from the speedo, throttle position, brakes and power steering. it stores the last twenty minutes of drive time before AirBag deployment.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5836 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted March 04, 2010 14:50      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ TFD, You have no idea. "TheMoMan has spent much of his working life in an environment where mistakes cost lives, I know how that feels, I've worked in similar places myself."

____ Two months after starting my apprenticeship I almost caused a work place accident, I still get chills up my spine, remembering that day. Think work site, Cranes and a hanging load. A lot of bad things happen and I almost caused one. It would not be good to injure or maim a co-worker. In every group of skilled tradesmen there are aces and eights after that scare I vowed to be the ACE, I have never dropped a load, never hurt a co-worker, or built a machine that injured an operator. I hold a Machine Builders Card, (elite group) and a United States Riggers Lift Masters Card 100TON (another elite group) by the way my lift card will expire at the end of this year.

____ During my tour as a Navy Hospitalcorpsman, No One Died because of my errors or omissions. Then two years working at an Ambulance Company, I have tried to maintain ZERO DEFECTS.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5836 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged


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