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Author Topic: I'm going vegan everyone!
Snaggy

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Icon 5 posted January 30, 2007 15:57      Profile for Snaggy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
dragon: I don't quite understand why you would be insulted by that Nitro quote? Can you elaborate?

I mean, you might not agree with it, but why is it insulting?

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2007 16:17      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Are you adding fossil fuels to your list of prohibited products of consumption, Nitro? They're based on carbon lifeforms...and not just plant carbon materials.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2007 16:21      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Snaggy wrote:
dragon: I don't quite understand why you would be insulted by that Nitro quote? Can you elaborate?

I mean, you might not agree with it, but why is it insulting?


I'm sure he'll answer, but I think re-writing the quote a bit will make it more obvious:

"I believe that one cannot be truly aware and in the present unless they consume meat"

Doesn't it seem a bit insulting to be told that you cannot be aware and in the present because you choose to be a vegetarian/vegan? I'd feel a bit insulted.

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Snaggy

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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2007 17:04      Profile for Snaggy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Doesn't it seem a bit insulting to be told that you cannot be aware and in the present because you choose to be a vegetarian/vegan? I'd feel a bit insulted."

nope, I'd just disagree with it, it doesn't insult me. [ohwell]

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Snaggy

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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2007 17:11      Profile for Snaggy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Rhonwyyn, don't forget limestone!

/me cancels that load of gravel. [Razz]

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Nitrozac

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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2007 17:19      Profile for Nitrozac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ok, I'll admit, that statement was a tad trollish. [Razz] What I meant was; for me. I used Budhism as evidence to support my point of view.

To explain further, I believe if you strive for mindful awareness, it would be difficult to choose to eat meat, dairy and eggs the way it's produced right now. Since recently I was eating fish, dairy and eggs, I think I was in denial, and when I saw that documentary I had to take a look at my choices. When I looked into dairy production and egg production, I couldn't shrug it off, and decided to stop contributing my money to that business. I just don't want anything to do with that.

It's sort of how I approached other behaviours I didn't like in myself. I try and look at myself, and see what I'm doing to cause my own stress, and try and change that. It's very hard to do, and takes a lot of courage to admit when you're wrong, and when you're hurting yourself and others. I found it was the same mental process when I decided to go vegan.

I have been making great efforts to live in a mindfully aware state for a few years now. I noticed as I was developing my vegan values I felt a sort of clarity. It's hard to explain without waving my hands around. I mean I feel like, now when I look at a beautiful dish of french toast topped with butter and whipped cream, I feel more 'aware' of what it is, and how it got there and what it'll do to my waistline if I eat. Taking off the rose glasses of seductive food presentation made feel more conscious and aware and in the present, a sort of denial being lifted.

I think that today, in our abundant society, we're vulnerable to magical thinking when it comes to food. Like "Happy Meals" at McDonald's, or high priced cuisine that uses fanciful presentations. It is kind of magical in a way, that we can go to a restaurant, order something and there it is, in minutes all ready for you. This just wasn't the case a hundred years ago or less.

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 5 posted January 30, 2007 17:20      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I just want to know what the freakin' cat thinks of all of this.

[Roll Eyes]

Colonel Panic

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Nitrozac

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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2007 17:52      Profile for Nitrozac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
GG: thank you! [Big Grin] You're so sweet! You just keep up the good work, and when you're ready to go vegan and want to learn some tasty recipes, just let me know! [Smile]

Rhyon: The fossil fuel issue. Yeah, you know that does pop into your mind when you're looking at making these kinds of changes. Since the burning of fossil fuels is bad for the planet, etc, I decided reduce my fossil fuel consumption and sell my investments in the fossil fuels sector.

Here are some of changes I've made:
- I will not take unneccessary trips, especially by airplane. At least reduce my air travel. This makes a huge difference.
- I reduced my driving, and I already drive 6,000 km less than the average Canadian.
- My landlord has switched our furnace from oil to heat pump.
- I've sold investments in the Canadian oil sands, and other energy companies.
- I've also sold my stocks in Tim Hortons, since they are buyers and sellers of non-vegan fast food. That was a hard one, because I loved my Tim Horton's. *sigh* oh well.

For the record, a vegan diet doesn't really have anything to do with environmentalism. You can be a consumer of fossil fuels and a vegan at the same time, as far as I know.

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GameGod
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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2007 18:25      Profile for GameGod     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You'll save money too!

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Well...that was fun =)

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2007 19:22      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Nitrozac wrote:
Ok, I'll admit, that statement was a tad trollish. [Razz] What I meant was; for me.

No worries. We all behave badly from time to time. Some of us (me), more often than others. I wasn't insulted because of my own beliefs, which I am unlikely to really expound upon.

Now that that's out of the way, allow me to pose a few questions for you to consider.

What about the animals who are killed and displaced when a field is plowed to plant vegetables? Or the ones who die because the local food sources have been reduced to a level that can no longer sustain the existing population because a farm was put in?

By minimizing the area used for farming, less natural space is destroyed, fewer animals killed/displaced/etc. Do the problems caused by fertilizer justify and completely offset the environmental impact of the larger farms needed when fertilizer isn't used?

Organic foods (and I hate that term, by the way, because there are very few inorganic food sources) preclude any genetically modified crops. It's easy to say that tomatoes should be grown locally and not need GM modifications to extend shelf life, but how easy is it to say that people in, say, Ethiopia should starve rather than having drought resistant GM crops?

Sometimes I really wish life was simple *sigh*

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2007 19:36      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You want a different way of being completely mindful of things?

Switch completely to open source software.

Keep in mind...that does not include Mac OS X. Go to Debian, Ubuntu, OpenBSD, or that silly one that FSF just started. Mind you, it's a lot easier these days, but it was a bit trickier a few years ago. BTW, when I say 'completely open source,' this also means "Don't use WINE to run proprietary, but free as in beer software." (i.e. No iTunes, Quicktime, or IE [for web dev. testing, of course])

If you want to say "that isn't the same thing by a long shot" - you may be right... one directly affects your health, the other affects your computer usage. Still, both are personal decisions that are largely on political and/or ethical matters. They both affect major industries, and theoretically both have the power to change the world we live in.

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uilleann
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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2007 20:21            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Do bear in mind that while big commercial companies tend to ignore their userbase flat out, open source folk have a horrible habit of saying "You want that implemented? Go do it yourself". The fact that you're not a competent programmer means nothing to them. If the software is non-modular or the changes need to go below the limits of the plugin API, the fact that it will stop you upgrading ever again (unless you diff your old copy's source against the new source, guess how the changes affect what you changed, patch the new source and recompile every time), means nothing to them either. That and the often long lead time even on getting a new version of anything at all, and the endless bugs, does their cause no favours.

I prefer shareware myself, since the developers are under obligation to do what people want else they'll lose customers. Many will still co-operate and help even when there are no upgrade fees, because they develop under the mentality that their users are not programmers and thus, as the developer, they're there to help. At least, European developers. And I find them a lot less arrogant and a lot less dismissive. Open source folk are too often out of touch with the Real World and the idea that non-programmers may ever want to either use, or even understand, anything they made.

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Nitrozac

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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2007 21:00      Profile for Nitrozac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
but, what about killing digital gaming characters?! Isn't that killing?. Killing monsters, animals even people? In the game? The slaughter is going on now, by the millions, it's a travesty beyond anything humanity has ever witnessed! Yet no one is talking about it! There's a conspiracy! How many so-called Vegans log onto their favorite game and let the killing spree begin! It's horrible! Are you still reading this? omg! That is amazing, that you're still reading this. I can't believe it! [Wink]

What about microbes? OMG! I must've killed about 3 million of them today? How can I live with myself?! [Razz]

Steen: yeah I skimmed that article Demos linked to about the animals being killed at harvest. More land is used for grazing than crops. And a lot of grain crops that don't make the grade for human consumption goes to feed livestock. If it does bother people that fruit, vegetables, legumes, and grain for humans kills animals in the process, are they going to remove fruits, vegetables, legumes and grain from their diet? And how long with their health last? But, if that's what someone wants to do and feel good about it, well, then go for it. [Big Grin]

Dragonman: Are you saying that Linux is the Vegan diet of operating systems? Yeah, I can see that, somehow, for sure. Don't support The Man, support the Tux, yeah, cool. But just to let you know, I know the operating wars is the oldest troll in the book. [Beard of Peter Gabriel!]

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2007 21:13      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Nitrozac wrote:
but, what about killing digital gaming characters?! Isn't that killing?. Killing monsters, animals even people? In the game? The slaughter is going on now, by the millions, it's a travesty beyond anything humanity has ever witnessed! Yet no one is talking about it! There's a conspiracy! How many so-called Vegans log onto their favorite game and let the killing spree begin! It's horrible! Are you still reading this? omg! That is amazing, that you're still reading this. I can't believe it! [Wink]

You're absolutely right! There's only one solution... eliminate all other games and play NetHack in pacifist mode!

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2007 00:51      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Nitrozac:
but, what about killing digital gaming characters?! Isn't that killing?.

True story: I used to work for a company that did a horse-racing computer game. One client wanted to pay us to do a steeple-chasing version, then got cold feet because their customers complained that steeple-chasing is cruel to (computer-generated) horses.

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Demosthenes
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2007 11:32      Profile for Demosthenes     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Nitrozac:
because I thought she was trolling me at that point. (Sorry Demos, but that's how I interepretted that.)

That's okay, it just goes to show how much more enlightened you could be. [Razz]

quote:
Rhyon: The fossil fuel issue. Yeah, you know that does pop into your mind when you're looking at making these kinds of changes. Since the burning of fossil fuels is bad for the planet, etc, I decided reduce my fossil fuel consumption and sell my investments in the fossil fuels sector.
...or you could actually commit fully to your cause, no exceptions, and get a bicycle. I think I'm currently leaving less of an ecological footprint than you are, since I don't own or drive anything with an engine. (Hey, since you're doing this to lose weight, bicycling will help that, as well!)
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uilleann
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2007 14:29            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TFD: The depiction of unpleasant activities and incidents is a complex subject. If the real game is cruel to horses, why depict it in a game? (The same goes for violence on TV and in films and vifeo games in general) I've never come to even any theories on the acceptable levels of what we can show in entertainment.
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csk

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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2007 04:14      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by uilleann:
TFD: The depiction of unpleasant activities and incidents is a complex subject. If the real game is cruel to horses, why depict it in a game? (The same goes for violence on TV and in films and vifeo games in general) I've never come to even any theories on the acceptable levels of what we can show in entertainment.

It's certainly an interesting moral question. A vaguely related anecdote is what about completely computer generated (no human beings involved whatsoever) kiddie porn? My logic tells me that if it doesn't hurt real children, it's OK, same as virtual violence etc, but it still doesn't feel right to my intuition.

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6 weeks to go!

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uilleann
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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2007 09:11            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It all depends on how well separated you keep fantasy from reality in your mind. You must consider what it does to you if you thrive on it in fantasy. The male sex drive is dangerously, fatally powerful and by letting men prey on fantasy underage girls, you're reinforcing ideas in their minds that they really should be blocking out. (Also ask yourself how the game should be created: a lot of realistic games show indications that people have studied things that they really should not have been studying except for clinical, forensic and scientific reasons).

I don't know that I could ever argue that paedophilia is safe when confined to fantasy, and I am not that sure about violence either. The latter, I feel I am pretty safe with in games: I can do pretty horrible things to game characters without feeling too much remorse or empathy and then care nothing for it later, but I'm not that tall, pretty weak and would lose any and every fight. There is no incentive or calling for me to be violent. Even if I acquired a firearm that would give me more potency and started re-enacting Grand Theft Auto in the streets of England, I'd just end up in jail, so that would be very stupid. But a man who already is tough and strong, who'd win all the fights, doesn't need encouraging ... He'd be better off with games full of daisies and birds ;)

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Nitrozac

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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2007 13:54      Profile for Nitrozac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Demos: good idea about the bike! For me, I live in a rural community, and it would be insanely impractical to not have a vehicle. I'm going to be conserving the amount I drive. I think I am going to get a bike this summer and try biking on the nearby islands for recreation. I used to really enjoy biking, and haven't done any since we moved out west.

I was thinking the other day, if one wanted to take a trip on the continent it would be cool to walk there, you know, if you had all summer or something. Would that ever get you in shape! It would be a very interesting way to see the country too.

My uncle's brother (sounds like an urban legend doesn't it?), seriously, this guy is 71 years old and he biked across Canada just for the heck of it. He wasn't fund raising or anything. Cool eh? I was very impressed. [thumbsup]

I also saw a show where a couple of young women rode horseback from Alberta to Mexico and back, that looked really cool.

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GMx

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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2007 14:49      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Nitrozac:
My uncle's brother (sounds like an urban legend doesn't it?), seriously, this guy is 71 years old and he biked across Canada just for the heck of it.

Wouldn't your Uncle's brother also be your Uncle? [Confused]
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Snaggy

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Icon 3 posted February 01, 2007 15:01      Profile for Snaggy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Nitro: How many bugs would you inhale and kill while driving that bike?
What if there's a bunny on the road, and you scare it? And it can't have sex that night? That could mess up the future.

Bikes are horrible things, that why you should get a Hummer.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2007 15:14      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Nitrozac wrote:
My uncle's brother (sounds like an urban legend doesn't it?), seriously, this guy is 71 years old and he biked across Canada just for the heck of it. He wasn't fund raising or anything. Cool eh? I was very impressed. [thumbsup]

Snaggy wrote:
How many bugs would you inhale and kill while driving that bike?
What if there's a bunny on the road, and you scare it?


That reminds me of something from this past year...

The Ditty Bops did a cross country bike tour and documented it
(be warned, the page is -huge- because of all the videos and takes quite a while to load on a decent connection. I wouldn't try it on a modem)

Apologies in advance for what really is a sort of spam-like post, but I like their music even if almost everyone else I've run into doesn't.

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Nitrozac

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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2007 15:31      Profile for Nitrozac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
GMX; he's my uncle by marriage, he married my aunt who's my mom's sister. [crazy]
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maximile

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Icon 4 posted February 01, 2007 15:35      Profile for maximile   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Snaggy:
What if there's a bunny on the road, and you scare it? And it can't have sex that night? That could mess up the future.

Oh no! Bunnies love sex!
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