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Author Topic: GTA blamed for triple murder?
Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted September 29, 2006 09:54      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
sun times article

Here is what I am thinking about this. IF you are bringing a pharmacuetical substance to market, and 10 million people test this drug, and only one person dies, you are fairly safe in saying it the death was not the drug makers fault. I apply this logic to this case.

If 30 million people play GTA,stat, and one person goes on a killing spree, it is almost certainly not the game makers fault. That means that 99.99999967% of the people who play the game are fine and 0.00000033% become killers. But wait, already 0.0000896 percent of americans are murderers.

(based on 23300 murders a year in america.) (this sort of means you are more likey to be a murderer if you are american than if you play GTA. But not really because there has been only one case of murder becuase of GTA reported and we don't know how many of those other murderers played GTA. Plus I am comparing a per annum number with a total number.) But anyways, hopefully you see my point.

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"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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stevenback7
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Icon 1 posted September 29, 2006 12:12      Profile for stevenback7   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I see what you are getting at. In my opinion gta really stops murders because most times it relieves stress and dosn't cause violence in people. ie. you come have a horrible day at work and start up gta to relieve your stress on some npc's instead of going out and killing your co-workers.

Yes there is the odd person who play's gta and goes on a rampage. but if you are going to say that then you have to say that about every single media in the world which in some way promotes violence.

The problem with gta and is one of the reasons politicians use it as ammunition. Is that along with the violence it has sex, drugs, swearing, etc. Those 3 reasons are why i don't have any version of gta in my house. Instead i have gone for merchenaries a game which allowes you to take out your anger but dosn't contain any of the other kinds of violence and discrimination as gta has.

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted September 29, 2006 12:51      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Here's my take.

There are some people who are predisposed to criminal behaviour and other who aren't (be it chromosomes, parental style, growing-up environment, level of stress in life, etc.). Those who aren't don't show risk if they play violent games, watch violent movies, listen to violent music. Those who are can get triggered by any of those, but chances are the trigger would have been hit sooner or later.

So in my opinion, it's more efficient to act on the causes that makes a person at risk than the potential triggers. Act against discrimination at school, bullying, and give the poor kids at least one hot meal a day. Make sure kids and parents in abusive homes get the help they need. Push employers to recognize the source of stress, educate them about mental health issues, and again, act against discrimination. Make sure spouse/partners in abusive relationships gets the help they need (both the abusing and the abused one). And so on. One can ask any psychologist and sociologist about what can be done.

What? That costs money and takes resources, while baging on a game/video/musical group doesn't? Well, duh! But do you want to end violence, or just pretend to?

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littlefish
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Icon 1 posted September 29, 2006 14:01      Profile for littlefish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Spurious use of statistics. Ignorant use of correlation vs causation.

But, GTA does not cause murders.

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted September 29, 2006 14:47      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by littlefish:
Spurious use of statistics.

Brilliant insight considering I stated this in my post.

oh and btw, (from www.dictionary.com)

cor·re·la·tion (k�r-lshn, kr-) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "correlation" [P]
n.

1. A causal , complementary, parallel, or reciprocal relationship, especially a structural, functional, or qualitative correspondence between two comparable entities: a correlation between drug abuse and crime.

Who is ignorant of the definition of a correlation?

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"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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littlefish
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Icon 1 posted September 29, 2006 16:04      Profile for littlefish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
quote:Originally posted by littlefish:
Spurious use of statistics.

Brilliant insight considering I stated this in my post.

No you didn't. Woolly thinking again. Call yourself a scientist?

It may be implied, but it sure as hell isn't stated!

quote:

oh and btw, (from www.dictionary.com)

cor·re·la·tion (k�r-lshn, kr-) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "correlation" [P]
n.

1. A causal , complementary, parallel, or reciprocal relationship, especially a structural, functional, or qualitative correspondence between two comparable entities: a correlation between drug abuse and crime.

Who is ignorant of the definition of a correlation?

You are, if you think that dictionary.com is a decent source to quote.

From the OED:

Correlation: 1. a. The condition of being correlated; mutual relation of two or more things (implying intimate or necessary connexion).

Causation: 1. The action of causing; production of an effect.

(Abridged)

If you really think that correlation and causation are the same thing, then you need to do a lot more studying.

If you'd like, I can explain the difference.

P.S. I've been enjoying the gin tonight, and feel like an argument. It isn't personal.

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Icon 1 posted September 29, 2006 16:05      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ashitaka:
quote:
Originally posted by littlefish:
Spurious use of statistics.

Brilliant insight considering I stated this in my post.

oh and btw, (from www.dictionary.com)

cor·re·la·tion (k�r-lshn, kr-) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "correlation" [P]
n.

1. A causal , complementary, parallel, or reciprocal relationship, especially a structural, functional, or qualitative correspondence between two comparable entities: a correlation between drug abuse and crime.

Who is ignorant of the definition of a correlation?

Correlation=Causation is a logical fallacy, as, while correlation could be due to causation, there are a number of other possibilities. Littlefish is using the correct terms.

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted September 29, 2006 16:39      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I am not saying that correlation = causation. You are putting these words in my mouth. HOw the helll did we even fget to this correlation causation argument?? You call yourself a scientist?? Anyways in this case, I am arguing that any correlation would not be causeation. I would think a scientist of your stature would read better.

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-Assif Mandvi

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted September 29, 2006 19:19      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm not a big fan of video and computer games.

I'd say if I were on a jury and ths filth-fest game and a killer were presented, then I'd vote that everyone is going down.

We put people in jail for far less, so I'd have no problem with this.

Colonel Panic

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 29, 2006 19:24      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So when are they going to do something about the book that's been the inspiration for more serial killers than any other book, film, or video game ?

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Icon 1 posted September 29, 2006 19:52      Profile for Astronomer Jedi   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
So when are they going to do something about the book that's been the inspiration for more serial killers than any other book, film, or video game ?

Amen [Razz]

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Estne volumen in toga, an solum tibi libet me videre?

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted September 29, 2006 20:05      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
From TFA:
plaintiffs' lawyer Jack Thompson

Let's all put on our best surprised expression.

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted September 29, 2006 20:29      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
So when are they going to do something about the book that's been the inspiration for more serial killers than any other book, film, or video game ?

Jesus Boot Camp

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/22/movies/22camp.html?ex=1159675200&en=9df5a0bf3347089d&ei=5070

CP

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 29, 2006 20:46      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Colonel Panic:
Jesus Boot Camp

Great quote from related article in The Age
quote:
"Secularists are hoping that evangelical Christians and radicalised Muslims are essentially the same, which is why they will love this film."

In fact, Ms Fischer compares her evangelising with the education of Muslim children in the Middle East. "Our enemies," she says, are filling up their children's minds. The difference is that, "excuse me, we have the truth".



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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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uilleann
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Icon 1 posted September 29, 2006 20:59            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Assuming they mean GTA 3 (because first-person perspective is implied):

It's ironic ... I hold up GTA 3 to be the most beautiful game ever made and the absolute gold standard for world simulation. Never before have I seen such an uncannily real world simulator -- gorgeous sunsets, vapour trails, accurate reflections of car lights on wet roads, litter blown about by the wind. Even the AI is fun -- various bad drivers to contend with just make it all that more real.

For a game that glorifies violence, the attention to detail is astonishing. (I will forgive them for having triangular steering wheels inside the cars instead of just using classic flat sprites of circles). I've spent a lot of time just driving around for the fun of it, and it's real enough to evoke powerful memories from my childhood.

What would be nice is if Microsoft could write a scaled-down version of Flight Simulator that lets you fly low over a handful of towns using the GTA 3 world engine and Flight Sim flight/cockpit engine. The closest you ever got to this was Pilot Wings for the N64 if you selected the autogyro. (The helicopters in GTA 3 are hard to fly and my friend and I just cannot keep the light aircraft in the sky at all, although apparently it's possible to fly it.)

And yes, sometimes I will just commit random acts of violence for fun, beat up and shoot everyone in sight, but I tend to just get busted by the cops and, generally, shot and killed :P Fair's fair!

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted September 30, 2006 02:19      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
So when are they going to do something about the book that's been the inspiration for more serial killers than any other book, film, or video game ?

Judahs don't have any faith.

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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littlefish
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Icon 1 posted September 30, 2006 03:22      Profile for littlefish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ashitaka wrote:

quote:
I am not saying that correlation = causation. You are putting these words in my mouth. HOw the helll did we even fget to this correlation causation argument??
After quoting dictionary.com as saying:

quote:
cor·re·la·tion (k�r-lshn, kr-) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "correlation" [P]
n.

1. A causal , complementary, parallel, or reciprocal relationship, especially a structural, functional, or qualitative correspondence between two comparable entities: a correlation between drug abuse and crime.

Your bolding too. I would suggest that these two statements are contradictory.
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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted September 30, 2006 03:46      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by littlefish:
Ashitaka wrote:

quote:
I am not saying that correlation = causation. You are putting these words in my mouth. HOw the helll did we even fget to this correlation causation argument??
After quoting dictionary.com as saying:

quote:
cor·re·la·tion (k�r-lshn, kr-) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "correlation" [P]
n.

1. A causal , complementary, parallel, or reciprocal relationship, especially a structural, functional, or qualitative correspondence between two comparable entities: a correlation between drug abuse and crime.

Your bolding too. I would suggest that these two statements are contradictory.

I made causal bold becuase you correlation vs causation statement seemd to imply that correlation could not equal causation. It just doesn't equal it in every case. (the all racoons are mammals but not all mammals are racoons, argument.)

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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stevenback7
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Icon 1 posted September 30, 2006 18:45      Profile for stevenback7   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The fact is that any video game dosn't cause someone to go on a killing sprea.

Yes there has been cases where need for speed has been found in a car which was in a collision from speeding. Yes there has been copies of gta found in the houses of serial killers. But all the actions of these stupid people where influenced by much more then a game.

For every video game which influenced a person to commit a crime there is probally a 100 people who commited a crime due to movies. And another 100 who commited a crime from television. and a 10 000 people probally commited a crime due to what the goverment has done.

But if a person dosn't understand that a game is just a game from the start before they even start playing it then they are all ready on the path to commiting a crime of some sort.


(* my opinions)

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uilleann
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Icon 1 posted September 30, 2006 21:22            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Oh, I agree. The question is, is it acceptable to have movies and games which are known to trigger lethal behaviour in certain individuals? Is it healthy even for the minds of folk who stable and won't go out and kill anyone (through speeding, guns or otherwise)?

How about sports like boxing? Motor racing? (Which looks dangerous just watching it, hardly Lotus III where you bounce off all the rocks intact...)

How far can we take entertainment before it's considered depraved? (I'd consider Soldier of Fortune to be very definitely depraved, the graphics engine is impressive but the level of mutilation you can inflict is really unjustified. And there was my dad angry about how bad Doom was...)

I've lost all track now of what level of violence is acceptable, I don't even have my own moral compass although I do find games like GTA to be quite dubious -- do we need games like that? (The violence. As I said, the world simulator is most awe-inspiring and there needs to be a better use for it.)

But then, like you pointed out ... stress relief. I could really do with a good stress-relieving game like that. But games are generally so stressful -- often, more so than what you were taking a break from -- that they don't help any. There is a lack of really quality arcade-style games out there for home computers...

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2006 13:07      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ashitaka________________________Apparantly many of us that actually think seem to miss the direct connection to seeing the connection. Why don't we see that if we play GTA and go out and get in a drunken rage and kill some innocent bystander (who shouldn't have been there any way) it has to tbe the games fault it can't be mine. That is the same logic an attorney used when a car ran over the guard rail on a Bridge near here, two million cars have crossed that bridge but one driven by a young woman at a high rate of speed got over the rail. The bridge is at fault. The same with the british double decker busses a drunk american attorney fell off one so he sued, can't be the fact that I was drunk it must be the bus.

I don't know, I thought that I was responsible for my own actions.

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2006 13:39      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TheMoMan: [Applause] [Applause] [Applause]
Nothing else to say, really.

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2006 14:20      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
Ashitaka________________________Apparantly many of us that actually think seem to miss the direct connection to seeing the connection. Why don't we see that if we play GTA and go out and get in a drunken rage and kill some innocent bystander (who shouldn't have been there any way) it has to tbe the games fault it can't be mine. That is the same logic an attorney used when a car ran over the guard rail on a Bridge near here, two million cars have crossed that bridge but one driven by a young woman at a high rate of speed got over the rail. The bridge is at fault. The same with the british double decker busses a drunk american attorney fell off one so he sued, can't be the fact that I was drunk it must be the bus.

I don't know, I thought that I was responsible for my own actions.

Is this suppossed to be intelligible? At any rate I agree with you and have no clue why you seem to think I believe otherwise.

I think that a person who could think could have figured that out. Read next time.

Anyways, I have plenty of faults, you don't have to make any up if you want pick an argument with me.

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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uilleann
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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2006 15:51            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TheMoMan: Mostly I agree. However, as I wrote above, I have doubts about violence to begin with. It's easy to say that something that is blamed (guard rail, bus, some activity) is perfectly well engineered/good/wholesome and thus place the real blame on whoever committed the act in question.

When it comes to games full of violence and illegal/immoral activity I can't simply state that "There's nothing the matter with the game". Because I am pretty sure that there is. Not just that someone died, but what must go through the minds of the players -- the people who spend hours engrossed in the game and its plot. Worse (and hands up who's seen or played Soldier of Fortune) what goes through the minds of the developers? Soldier of Fortune worries me greatly because there is extreme graphic depiction of mutilation of people that someone had to program in. Why did they want to do that? I am not even sure I could sit through developing that -- and you'd have to do your research too.

I don't suppose many people were bothered by classical psychaedelic video games of the 80s like PacMan or Defender or Q*Bert. But slowly it's got more and more realistic, and more and more depraved. How far should we go with this? What will the limit be? Will there be one?

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stevenback7
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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2006 17:36      Profile for stevenback7   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think parents really need to start becoming the decision maker into what type of games kids are playing. I know parents who have allowed there 8 year old to play gta and who have allowed them to watch movies with way to much violence for a child that age to watch.

The ESRB can only go so far with the rating system and watching over what video game designers are putting in their games. the final decision i think belongs to the parent.

And as for the adults who have been affected by video games like i said if you are that old and are affected by a simple game then you must have been at least a little mental or you must of been grown up to think like that.

But going further then the video games i think the main main issues is the guns and weapons. First i don't think anyone should have a gun if no one has a gun then there is no need for you to have a gun anymore to "protect" yourself. just last week a 14 year old kid walked into a school with a shotgun and a handgun and killed the prinicple. Even if parents have a gun it should be locked up and away from children and that the real issue.

finished [Frown] [Frown]

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