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Author Topic: Holy Moley, Andrea Yates
Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted July 26, 2006 18:40      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
From the part of the country that believes Ken Lay is the second coming of Jesus Christ, we now have a woman who drowned her five children declared not guilty by reason of insanity.

The woman waited until her husband left for work, and before her mother-in-law was scheduled to drop in, then drowned her kids. They fought. The oldest ran around the house to escape from Mommy and was then drowned in a tub full of his brothers' and sisters' vomit, excrement and urine. After she murdered the children, she didn't call Elvis or the Jesus Saves hotline, she called 9-1-1 and admitted he had done wrong, was a bad mother and she killed her kids.

The Texas law asks, "Did she know the difference between right and wrong?" And she as much as admitted she did.

If she were a black man and done that, Righty wouldn't even have waited for a trial in Texas. George W. Bush signed the death warrants on a lot of guys like that. The Supreme Court of the USA even said one of them was innocent.

But she was a white, right-wing religious nut, homeschooling her kids. Homeschooling being a right-wing subterfuge for child molesting, incestuous, torturing, murdering, frothing-at-the-mouth kooks to hide their crimes from prying government eyes. Nothing more, nothing less.

The Texas jury simply endorsed this sick and depraved institution by giving Andrea Yates a get-out-of-jail free card.

She'll spend a couple of years feeding ducks and milking goats at a cush, high-end home for the religous right and be walking among us soon. Most likely protesting at Planned Parenthood.

Is this a good thing? Not to me.

But in a religion that thinks Ken Lay and Jesus Christ are one in the same -- it is.

CP

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted July 26, 2006 20:52      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thanks for spewing your venomous hate across these boards again, CP. I'm sure we're all so much the better for having read the judgmental drivel you consider so enlightened.

As someone who has homeschooled a child and who has interacted at great lengths with homeschooled children, I take umbrage at your unilateral condemnation of the homeschool process. Homeschooling--except in very rare cases--is NOT an excuse by parents to keep their children confined and molested. I dare say that parents who choose to homeschool their children do so in an effort to protect their innocent ears from being exposed to such vitriolic hatred as you demonstrate.

I'd rather be grouped with the people who liken Kenneth Lay to Jesus Christ than with any group of which you're a member. I'd be afraid to sleep at night for fear of being slaughtered by those with whom you're politically affiliated should they ever control this country.

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted July 27, 2006 06:24      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Whoah, Rhon! The Colonel is know to be very virulent, but he is certainly less dangerous than the woman who killed her five children. (And got out mostly free, what he is angry about.) So please calm down and simply state what you disagree about, and why, will you?

quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
I dare say that parents who choose to homeschool their children do so in an effort to protect their innocent ears from being exposed to such vitriolic hatred as you demonstrate.

Sheltering children from points of view opposed to those held by the parents, that's my beef against homeschooling. Remember those little "Arian Blue" (or something like that) girls who were still taught of white supremacist ideologies while being homeschooled? I believe - but it's just my opinion, after all - that it's better to have children exposed to the bad side of life and to be ready to explain it to them why it is wrong, and how to avoid it, rather than hide it from them until they are released to the world, totally unprepared to face it. The same way it is recommended for parents to sit with their children while they watch the TV, and then discuss what they have seen. It helps them develop a sound judgement.

And I'm not mentionning how many parents don't have the knowledge to teach their children all the subjects taught at school beyond the first few years. Plus, you have to admit that it is a perfect cover-up for those (very few) parents who abuse their children.

Homeschooling may not be totally bad, and can even be great with good, well instructed parents. But I'd say regular schooling (public or private), even if part time, would be better in many cases.

quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
I'd rather be grouped with the people who liken Kenneth Lay to Jesus Christ than with any group of which you're a member.

Well, you're both members of Geek Culture... [crazy]

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stevenback7
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Icon 1 posted July 27, 2006 07:01      Profile for stevenback7   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
If she were a black man and done that, Righty wouldn't even have waited for a trial in Texas. George W. Bush signed the death warrants on a lot of guys like that. The Supreme Court of the USA even said one of them was innocent.


She'll spend a couple of years feeding ducks and milking goats at a cush, high-end home for the religous right and be walking among us soon. Most likely protesting at Planned Parenthood.

That's exactly why i hate the American court system. A person who can be made out to be a crazy maniac and killer who has the potential to get Bush some more followers will automaticaly be given the death sentence. While a supporter of Bush gets basically an invitation to kill more inocent people.

This is why i love the European court systems because the trials are fair and they don't believe in the death sentence but also don't believe in getting a get out of jail free card. Even convicted terrorist get a fair trial in Europe. While America puts anyone who looks suspicious into Guantanamo bay.

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Tirthas the Geek
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Icon 1 posted July 27, 2006 09:47      Profile for Tirthas the Geek     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Wow--CP:

No doubt that the judgement in this case is a travesty--although given the morality and ethics of another well-known Texan currently running our country, I'm hardly surprised.

But, c'mon--lay off the homeschoolers. While I will admit there are certainly those religious enthusiasts who choose to homeschool so as to not dilute their "family values", there are FAR more reasons to choose homeschooling than that.

In my own case, we are deciding whether to homeschool or send our son to private school because he has a medical condition that limits his mobility. In spite of his obvious and measurable brilliance, the public school system in our area has already labeled him "special needs" and has every intention of chucking him in with learning disabled kids, thereby limiting his educational opportunities. While we could probably fight our way through the situation, the mentality will still be there--this leaves us with the choice to do it ourselves or pay someone to treat him like a bright, if somewhat less mobile, child.

Stereotypes are bad...mmkay?

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AntonTakk
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Icon 1 posted July 27, 2006 10:11      Profile for AntonTakk   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
[Eek!] THIS POST CONTAINS A "CUSS WORD" OR TWO [Eek!]

this is probably against my better judgement, but i'll just wait till i'm alone with it, drown it, and call 911... [Big Grin]

The U.S. Court System:
Yes, the courts here in the U.S. are flawed, but not because of policy or intent. They are flawed because human nature is flawed. Our court system is based on the underlying idea that people are good, and honest, and trustworthy. The fact is, thou, that /EVERYONE/ harbours some prejudice against someone or something. Even if we could find perfectly virtuous people to act as the judge and jury they would be ruined, at leaset eventually, by bribes, or threats, or maybe they would just get so tired of having to preside over all the shit that people do to eachother and kill them selves. Thus we have to use what we can, and that means flawed people who are capable of making flawed decisions. There is no escaping that.

Home Schooling:
If it is done properly, by open-minded parents who aren't afraid of opposing ideas. Who are willing to fully examine opposing ideas with their children, while doing their best not to let their own beliefs get in the way of analysing something, and being honest enough with them selves and their children to admit when something they have said is out of habit, or opposition to the idea or subject being discussed, then it can be an excellent way for a child to learn, because (as i'm sure most of you can agree on) teachers in public schools are rarely impartial when it comes to subjects and ideas they disagree with. IF, on the other hand, that home schooling involves a bible and momies/daddies reproductive organs, then perhaps the parents should be shot.

Andrea Yates:
I don't mean to be an asshole. But i just don't care what she did to her children or what her punishment is. Personally, I think she was wrong in doing it, cause her children had a right to life. but I just can't see getting upset about it. Murderers, and rapists, and pedofiles, and any number of other types of scum bags walk the streets every day, go free every day. So at this point: "What's one more?"

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Tirthas the Geek
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Icon 1 posted July 27, 2006 10:16      Profile for Tirthas the Geek     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by AntonTakk:
IF, on the other hand, that home schooling involves a bible and momies/daddies reproductive organs, then perhaps the parents should be shot.

I can only imagine how one would employ both at the same time... [Big Grin]

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AntonTakk
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Icon 1 posted July 27, 2006 10:49      Profile for AntonTakk   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tirthas the Geek:
quote:
Originally posted by AntonTakk:
IF, on the other hand, that home schooling involves a bible and momies/daddies reproductive organs, then perhaps the parents should be shot.

I can only imagine how one would employ both at the same time... [Big Grin]
Brings a whole new meaning to the term "Bible thumping" doesn't it? [evil]

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schnurren
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Icon 1 posted July 27, 2006 11:23      Profile for schnurren     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I've worked in the public schools for a while, and have come to realize that home schooling, for some children, might be the best thing. Schools are objectifying places, where we move around based on bells and only have 25 minutes of six hours for rest (in which time we must eat lunch).

For kids who have issues with attention, or who want to learn things that aren't in the core curriculum, home schooling would be good.

I know some people my age who were home schooled, and they turned out just fine.

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted July 27, 2006 12:02      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Anton: true that teachers aren't impartials. They are humans, they have their own opinion, and of course they'll slant their discourse toward it. The nice part is: at school, you have many teachers. They all have their opinions. They all present the information the way that best suits them. So over the 12-years of regular education, kids get to know many points of view, and forge their own by taking what they like and leaving what they don't, plus they learn to argue about it. Homeschooling? Well, unless the parents are very careful, the kid only gets to know one point of view...

I'm sure everyone who went to regular school could talk on and on about their favorite teacher, the teacher they hated most, the teacher that rocked their view of the world, the one that opened their mind to a whole new set of knowlege, and so on. I wouldn't want my children (if I ever get some) to miss that expericence.

But then again, there are exceptions to every rule...

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AntonTakk
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Icon 1 posted July 27, 2006 12:54      Profile for AntonTakk   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:
The nice part is: at school, you have many teachers. They all have their opinions. They all present the information the way that best suits them. So over the 12-years of regular education, kids get to know many points of view, and forge their own by taking what they like and leaving what they don't, plus they learn to argue about it.

I have to disagree what that particular bit, especially on "touchy" subjects, for example:

ask the average high school graduate to tell you their opinion of communism., IME, 99% of the ones with enough brain to answer have all been fed the governmental party line of "Communists are evil, they kill babies, hate god, drink goat's blood.....etc". Which, granted looking at governments that calle them selves "Communist" one could get that opinion, but in public schools, no one bothers to point out that the vast majority of governments that claim to be communist are actually dictatorships or totalitarian regimes. no one in middle school is told to sit down and read some of the writings of true communist philosophers.


another subject you get the same thing out of (mostly) is Hitler/Nazi Germany: most people will tell you that Hitler was an evil man in every aspect of his life and only ruled through terror or some such story. Note that i'm not saying that bunches of jews didn't get killed, and I'm not saying that it was OK, either, but how many teachers have to ever seen discuss any other part of hitler's "leadership style" (lets call it that, anyways). for one, he was an acomplished public speaker (how do you think he convinced so many people that jews were the root of all Germany's problems?) also, he was a good leader, and i don't mean he was a good person, and I don't mean good leader in the sense that people normally use it in, I mean he knew how to lead, he united the vast majority of his country (yes, by dispicable and evil means, but that's beside the point) and made what was left of germany strong, till their arses eventually got whooped by the allied powers


just something to think about

EDIT: No, I'm not a neo nazi or any such thing, just providing opposing points ov view and hoping to make this a good and worthwhile discussion

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Tirthas the Geek
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Icon 1 posted July 27, 2006 13:06      Profile for Tirthas the Geek     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:
The nice part is: at school, you have many teachers. They all have their opinions. They all present the information the way that best suits them. So over the 12-years of regular education, kids get to know many points of view, and forge their own by taking what they like and leaving what they don't, plus they learn to argue about it. Homeschooling? Well, unless the parents are very careful, the kid only gets to know one point of view...

Stereo-

I'm guessing you haven't been around a lot of homeschooling in your lifetime. From my research and direct experience, homeschooling in this day and age is not about shutting your child off in some home-based classroom and teaching them with whatever knowledge you happen to have. Homeschooling groups provide fieldtrips, social interactions, expanded lesson plans and lesson options, and a degree of acceptance and social diversity that you simply don't get in standard K-12 environment.

The North Metro Homeschool group in Denver (one of many such groups in Metro Denver) is quite organized, providing at least one field trip a week to local businesses, museums, universities, etc. Students at different grade levels learn all together--and help each other in an almost Socratic fashion, to boot.

In addition to field trips, parents with specialized knowledge (my wife is trained as a geo-environmental scientist and cultural ethnographer, for example) teach expanded sections for groups of children--and provide additional viewpoints. An architect, for example, can teach architectural history, some physics, some math, some art, some social science, some chemistry, etc--you don't have to be a college professor in those areas to have something valuable to teach. In a group of 40-50 families, there are always educated, professional people willing to get together during the day, on weekends or in the evenings for specialized lessons.

Sure, the more religious folks in the homeschool group tend to focus more on lessons and activities that cater to their world-view. The rest of us tend to be highly educated, liberal, slightly crunchy parents looking for an alternative to public schools that seem more focused on babysitting, corporate sponsorship, test scores, and catering to the lowest common denominator.

As you said, I'm sure we can all point to examples, pro and con, of great/poor teachers and educational experiences--really, the public/private/home school debate. I'm not placing one over any of the others--as a parent or potential parent, it's your perogative to mess your kids up in the manner of your choosing. [Big Grin]

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nerdwithnofriends
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Icon 1 posted July 27, 2006 13:40      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I just graduated from highschool. I wish I had been homeschooled.

Public schools are a joke; as Tirthas has mentioned, they cater to the lowest common denominator- the stupid kids. Not the challenged ones, because they get put in a separate curriculum so that 'normal' classes don't have to be radically altered to accomodate them.

There is no such thing as a diverse collection of teachers with different political views; at least no t in a public school. Since they all rely on a union to keep them employed, instead of their ability to teach, they tend to lean towards the liberal side. In my four years of highschool, I can't think of one conservative teacher I met, with the possible exception of a gym teacher. And this is in Montana, one of the most conservative states in the union (granted, after our past republican governor's shenanigans, we gave her the boot and elected a democrat. But most local representatives are republican).


My youngest sister is very gifted. I can say with no hesitation that I think I could teach her algebra and then beginning calculus before she even got to highschool. She's just good with stuff like that. On the other hand, I would hesitate to teach her social studies because there is room for bias in a subject like that.

Take, for example, the subject of Indians (hence forth referred to as aboriginals*) vs. European colonizers. Now, the views on this subject are like a pendulum, swinging from favouring one to the other over the years. When I was learning about it, the view favoured aboriginals- whites are evil, land-grabbing assholes, while the aboriginals knew nothing but peace and prosperity and loved everyone, etc etc. Contrast with this with several decades before: aboriginals were savage beasts, untamed and uncivilized, against the enlightened, forgiving, helpful europeans who would never think about using germ warfare to destroy the indigenous peoples of America.

I would hesitate to teach this subject because of my bias, but I would also hesitate to let the public schools teach it. The solution? Let the schools teach it, and at the end of the day, criticize what they teach, and let your kid decide what's what. Free thought is a rare commodity, and if you can engender it in your child, then you have accomplished your goal.


I'll continue by saying that our family values real sciences over the liberal arts- mathematics, biology, chemistry, computers, etc. Not to say that we don't do 'artsy' things, but we realize that they are not (at least for us) a viable path to affluence. It was frustrating to see that when our school budget was cut, they were actually considering cutting AP Calculus and maintaining Ceramics IV, Independent Study. No, I'm not exaggerating, we really have four years worth of ceramics available at my highschool. And the last two are repeatable.

The problem with the modern mindset in schools is that they attempt to make something out of everyone, instead of pushing the truly gifted to excel. Smart kids get the shaft. Specialization should be allowed within high schools- what if you don't want to have to take one fine-art credit? Or one industrial-arts credit? No math? No English (this is a biggy for me, english in highschool is a joke). Fine. As long as you can prove that you know what's up, you should be allowed to spend your academic time concentrating on whatever subject you want. Weak at math, but good at English? Well then, screw the lit classes, and focus on passing Algebra II.


Wow, that was a rant, and I'm sure it will be picked and/or flamed to pieces after I post. Oh well. Hopefully someone will glean something useful from it.

Finally, I would like to say, CP, that people would take you far more seriously if you weren't such an asshole when writing. No, that's not meant to be a flame. But it is possible to alienate fewer people when writing about how injust the world is, and the effect will be much more satisfying. Unless, of course, you are satisfied by provoking a reaction out of people like Rhonny, who you know is conservative and christian and will take offense to what you say. There is one word for this type of behaviour: childish.


* I use the term aboriginals because I hate the term 'Native American' (was I not born here?), but the term 'Indian' is obviously a gross misnomer.

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted July 27, 2006 14:00      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thirtas: you're right about at least one point: in Quebec, home-schooling is close to non-existant, and any such schooling needs to be OKed by the local school board*. But there are plenty of alternative schools (they need the Ministry's approval, of course). For example, there's one who teach farm-caring part time, and regular subjects the rest of the time, to a group of a dozen high-school-aged kids.

And what you describe is close to an "alternative school", where a group creates another option to the regular one. Because when 40-50 parents get together to teach a group of (at least 20) children, that's close to a full classroom, in my opinion.

So maybe the difference between our opinions is mostly in the meaning of the words than the idea behind.

*You know what I like with open discussion? It forces me to check my facts, so I got to read the "Loi sur l'instruction publique" ("Law on Public Education") - or at least, part of it - for the first time.

Edit: NWNF - isn't there any public school caring for gifted students? Or at least, special grants to send gifted children to private school? I was lucky enough to have parents who could afford to send us to private high schools, so I don't know much about that "caring for the lowest denominator" that is so decried in just about every public school system around the world. But I remember that teachers from 1-6 (I went public for those years) would give me extra point for doing more personnal work. I even got to skip a year.

Nothing's perfect - maybe what you state is the norm, maybe you just were unlucky. But from what I can read, you still did pretty well.

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Xanthine

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nwnf, me thinks you should have struck up a better relationship with your HS guidance counselor. Mine helped me weasel out of all sorts of requirements, including PE and WA state history. She also let me claim biotech as a vocational credit...

THe thing about education, and this is true no matter which route you take, is the quality is always patchy. There are some damn good public schools out there, but you have to live in the right place to take advantage of that. My parents were very aware of this phenomenon and they chose where we'd live based on the school district. Hence the biotech class and the indulgent guidance counselor... There are some damn crappy private schools out there, and you have to be a smart enough consumer to recognize that - I knew someone in college who went to a ritzy East Coast boarding school, got good grades so her parents thought they were getting their money's worth, and arrived on campus way behind the rest of us. Home-schooling also has its problems. Done right, kids come out fine - I met some home-schooled kids while I was in HS because they were enrolled in the same actvities I was in. Done wrong, and it can be a nightmare. It's not a solution that can work for every family either. Both my parents work, and even if one of them had been inclined to stay home I'm not sure either had the patience to be full-time teachers.

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YaYawoman

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Icon 1 posted July 27, 2006 14:11      Profile for YaYawoman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
For some educated and intelligent critiques of public schooling you might want to check out
www.illinoisloop.com and also www.mathematicallycorrect.com they lend a decent perspective of why a non-religious family may want and/or need to homeschool.

Regarding andrea yates. Could it possibly have been that the jury could not understand or believe that someone could kill every single one of her children without being insane? I know that my gut reaction on first hearing of the murders without knowing any of the details was that she had to have lost her mind. After hearing the details I have to admit she knew right from wrong, planned the murders and acted. Should have fried.

Stereo: Here in the United States the gifted programs are the first to be gutted when something needs to be gutted from the budget. From what it sounds like it is much easier in canada to propose and start alternative schools. Here in the usa it is hard to do hence the co-ops of homeschooling parents. Also they have a hard time starting voucher programs for the poor, never mind the gifted.

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AntonTakk
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Icon 1 posted July 27, 2006 15:05      Profile for AntonTakk   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by YaYawoman:
Stereo: Here in the United States the gifted programs are the first to be gutted when something needs to be gutted from the budget.

Definately, I still remember when my high school's only academic team (speech and debate) lost the last meager bit of funding it had from the school so they could buy new uniforms for the football team (that barely ever won) [Wink]

personally, i think a better solution to the school's monetary problems would have been to get rid of 5 of the 6 vice principals

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Icon 1 posted July 27, 2006 16:14      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Considering the father of the murdered kids thinks she was insane, I'm not inclined to consider it a travesty of justice. There was a time when I might have trusted that a prosecutor was more concerned with justice than just another guilty verdict under his/her belt, but not any more. Considering the odds are good that the woman will spend life in an asylum instead of prison, it's not as if she got off easy, either. Overall, I don't really care, though. It's just another story the sensationalist press has picked up in order to garner ratings, despite its complete irrelevance to those of us more than a thousand miles away.

As far as homeschooling goes, it's a valuable right for parents, and, while it's unfortunate that it's sometimes abused, I've known many who have gotten a better education at home than they would have at a public school.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

Posts: 1590 | From: Fresno, CA | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted July 27, 2006 17:08      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
At the risk of offending a whole range of people, I'm going to voice my actual opinion this way:
There are about 40,000 people killed in automobile accidents every year. I tend to view some whacked out religious fruitcake from Texas offing her kids as a way to prevent even more religious fruitcakes from coming out of Texas and claiming God is on their side [Roll Eyes]

That said, I'm going to play the devil's advocate. Heh, I kill me.
(yes, that was in very bad taste)

Consider these bits of information (not exactly from the most reliable source, I know, but still):

During Andrea Yates' trial, only one out of twelve mental health experts concluded that she was sane. That one was Park Dietz.

In a similar case (overly religious isolated stay-at-home mom killing her kids) a couple years later, he concluded the woman was insane.

The reason for the difference? The second woman believed God told her to kill her kids while Andrea Yates said that Satan told her to do it. Apparently, in his expert opinion, you can off your kids if you believe God told you to do it, but not if you believe Satan told you to do it. The fact that they were both obeying non-existent voices apparently has no relevance to their mental health.

How many of you really believe that someone hearing and obeying non-existent voices is sane?

Now, back to my more normal attitude: if the expert witness is that religious, why didn't he recommend eye for an eye justice? We could clone Andrea Yates a couple of times and kill her three times, once for each murder. It could be the variety pack: Lethal injection, electric chair and your choice of a firing squad or a good old fashioned lynch-mob hanging.

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Serenak

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Icon 1 posted July 27, 2006 17:40      Profile for Serenak     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think almost anyone who has children of their own will say that anyone that kills their own children is by default "insane" or at the very least very disturbed!

OK there are a few cases where extreme circumstances might make you want to think very carefully about it (really insane or just very disturbed)... but people who hear voices are, shall we say, not quite in the "normal" mental health range... whether they say it was god, satan, Son of Sam or Mickey Mouse that talked to them - and no matter how calm and collected they were when they did it as we say here "the balance of their mind was disturbed"

People have killed their children because in the depths of depression they could only see misery and hurt all around and wanted to "spare" their children from that. You and I know this is not normal behaviour but they were not "insane". They planned how to do it and executed the plan - usually followed by suicide.

Were they evil people? Probably not. Were they really mad and insane? Probably not. Were they seriously fscked up in the head so that they really believed they were doing the right thing? Probably.

In my view we need to concentrate more on finding and helping these people far sooner than on whether or not we should punish the ones that have slipped through the net...

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"So if you want my address - it's No. 1 at the end of the bar, where I sit with the broken angels, clutching at straws and nursing my scars..."

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stevenback7
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Icon 1 posted July 27, 2006 19:58      Profile for stevenback7   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
another subject you get the same thing out of (mostly) is Hitler/Nazi Germany: most people will tell you that Hitler was an evil man in every aspect of his life and only ruled through terror or some such story. Note that i'm not saying that bunches of jews didn't get killed, and I'm not saying that it was OK, either, but how many teachers have to ever seen discuss any other part of hitler's "leadership style" (lets call it that, anyways). for one, he was an acomplished public speaker (how do you think he convinced so many people that jews were the root of all Germany's problems?) also, he was a good leader, and i don't mean he was a good person, and I don't mean good leader in the sense that people normally use it in, I mean he knew how to lead, he united the vast majority of his country (yes, by dispicable and evil means, but that's beside the point) and made what was left of germany strong, till their arses eventually got whooped by the allied powers

I don't know how you were taught but every teacher in my highschool currently has at some point in time mentioned that hitler was a great leader. In history we spent weeks talking about his great accompishments ...

quote:
There is no such thing as a diverse collection of teachers with different political views; at least no t in a public school. Since they all rely on a union to keep them employed, instead of their ability to teach, they tend to lean towards the liberal side. In my four years of highschool, I can't think of one conservative teacher I met, with the possible exception of a gym teacher. And this is in Montana, one of the most conservative states in the union (granted, after our past republican governor's shenanigans, we gave her the boot and elected a democrat. But most local representatives are republican).

In my highschool every teacher has their own views on subjects. Yes. the school board restricts them from pushing their views over others. But at least once a day I will get a teacher who will tell some story or give some historicall fact expressing their opinion.

quote:
THe thing about education, and this is true no matter which route you take, is the quality is always patchy. There are some damn good public schools out there, but you have to live in the right place to take advantage of that.
Also adding to that usually bigger isn't always better. I go to the highschool in my town (about 300 kids). About 30 minutes away is the Catholic school (about 2000 + kids). Every year there is at least a dozen kids who come from the catholic school to my highschool because they just don't get the education needed. Even though our schools budget is $0 while the cathlic school is in the 6 digits.

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Demosthenes
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Icon 1 posted July 28, 2006 08:47      Profile for Demosthenes     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm just going to take another stab at homeschooling with my most reiterated point...I have never, ever met a well-adjusted homeschooled kid. Homeschooling socially cripples kids, never teaches them to build up a thick skin that one must develop throughout school, never teaches them to play the social structure, and never exposes them to a mass of people with differing opinions.

In both the weekend high school courses I was teaching at MIT and college, I ran into a number of homeschooled kids. Every single one of them lorded their "superior education" over the schooled students, most of whom were leaving them way behind in the coursework, and acted as though they were the center of every conversation and class debate. Many were pumped full of religious vitriol, had been sheltered from the opposite sex during the time that they should have spent exploring dating, and carried extremely one-sided opinions without any information to back them up. It struck me as an atrocity that supposedly loving parents would do this to their children.

I also grew up with a liberal homeschooling family living next door to my parents' place. One child has just hit the teenage years and she's chomping at the bit to get out and go to a normal high school, the other daughter is slightly older and absolutely terrified of outside people, to the point of running inside the house when my parents pull into the driveway.

For once this isn't an attack on anyone, but I guess I'm saying that I think it's a terrible, isolating process, no matter who does it, and I honestly, deeply pity homeschooled students.

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stevenback7
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Icon 1 posted July 28, 2006 09:46      Profile for stevenback7   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Demosthenes ________ I totaly agree with you. I think homeschooling is okay substitution for public school. but once their at the age to go to highschool i think they should go. Because unless the kid wants to go into the exact same profession as their parents then homeschooling will ruin their whole academic future.

Also homeschooling dosn't always shelter the kids from the outside world. I know selveral kids who been homeschooled for there pre-highschool years. And now at highschool they are just the same as everyone except they don't have that mind set of whats wrong and whats not.

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted July 28, 2006 09:56      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This debate on homeschooling is most instructive, but Demo's post reminds me one little side point... (The following applies mostly for single-family homeschooling.) It may deprive the mother (I highly doubth the homeschooling is done by the father, or it's the extremely rare exception) from having a job (paid or volunteered) all those years, so the day she wants to enter the workforce, she has close to nothing to show to possible employers. Because let's face it: even these days, housework and caring for children are not highly considered skills (unless you want to be a house-cleaner or a babysitter). No matter the organisational skills it takes, no matter the versatility required, employers snubs that. And being out of the workforce for 10+ years never help, no matter the reason.

Before you flame me: yes, I know. The women who do homeschool their kids do it on their own accord. They do it for the good of their children, and they honestly think (I hope) it's the best solution. But let's face it: it deprives them of opportunities, so they may regret their choice later on. I strongly believe that a middle point must be reached, where a woman cares as much for herself than she does for her husband and children.

Until the day fathers will be able (and willing) to work part-time in order to take their turn in homeschooling their children, allowing the mothers to do the same; until the day where taking care of the children won't be considered mostly a woman's thing anymore; yes, until that day, homeschooling will have an aftertaste of sexism to me. I just can't help it.

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Eppur, si muove!

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted July 28, 2006 15:51      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My mother worked as an LPN up until the day she gave birth to me. Thereafter she worked from home as a professional seamstress until Dad abandoned us when I was 12. Mom was able to get a full-time job in nursing again and a few years later, when my brother was ready for kindergarten, we homeschooled him to save money and 'cause he's born in June, he was just too young for the rest of his classmates. Got that? Single parent and homeschooling. And it paid off. My brother entered first grade way ahead of his older classmates and ended up skipping a grade from third to fifth because he needed more academic challenges. (He was just too good at maths* and the year at home put him leaps and bounds ahead of his peers.) To blanketly criticize parents for educating their children as they see fit is patently unfair.

*How many children do you know who run Monopoly games by themselves and have the entire board--complete with all possible rents--memorized before they're five years old? [Big Grin]

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Change the way you SEE, not the way you LOOK!

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