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Author Topic: Un-freakin-believable
Colonel Panic
BlabberMouth, the Next Generation
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Icon 2 posted July 12, 2006 18:19      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Folks may think I may be a bit nutty in believing that there is no depth to the evil of the American political right and the religions that support it, and there is no end to absolute thievery this political movement represents ...

Until, of course, you hear it in their own words.

Because the American righty is comparing the biggest thief and fraud that ever walked upright on this continent to Jesus!

http://money.cnn.com/2006/07/12/news/newsmakers/lay.reut/index.htm?cnn=yes

Doesn't say much about their morals or their god, does it?

Just look at the list of crooks who showed up.

CP

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Free! Free at last!

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GMx

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Icon 1 posted July 12, 2006 18:30      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I just got through reading that. [Mad]

quote:
The Reverend Dr. Bill Lawson compared Lay with civil rights leader Martin Luther King Jr. and Jesus Christ, and said his name would eventually be cleared.


Yeah, the same time that Jesus comes back. [Roll Eyes]

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted July 12, 2006 19:07      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So, did you expect the minister to stand up in front of the grieving family and say Good riddance to him, the thieving [email protected]@rd, I hope he fries ? [evil]

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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quantumfluff
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Icon 1 posted July 12, 2006 21:51      Profile for quantumfluff     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I want to hurl.

I think the problem with the USA is that we got our parties confused. When I was a kid we had fiscal conservative Republicans in the Northeast, and Southern Democrat bible thumpers in the South.

Sometime in the 70's or 80s things got messed up.
- both parties tossed fiscal policy out the window
- the republicans decided to court the fundementalists to pick up a few votes. Now they are beholden to them
- the sensible people of the Northeast remained sensible, which is mostly moderate republican or democrat. But... with the republicans apeasing the nutcases, the sensibles moved away from them, towards the democrats, even if they didn't have any decent plans.

Dogma captures the issue pretty well...
idea => good
belief => stupid

US politics changed from a system if ideas to one of beliefs.

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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted July 12, 2006 23:19      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
July 12, 2006 18:19
Folks may think I may be a bit nutty in believing that there is no depth to the evil of the American political right and the religions that support it, and there is no end to absolute thievery this political movement represents ...

Until, of course, you hear it in their own words.

It looks like the quotes come from five people.

quote:
HOUSTON (Reuters) -- Family and friends of Ken Lay gathered at a memorial service on Wednesday to eulogize the Enron Corp. founder and former chairman, who died last week. The following are excerpts from the tributes.
...
David Herrold, Lay's stepson
...
Reverend Dr. William Lawson
...
Ray Phillips, Lay's brother-in-law
...
Mick Seidl, longtime friend
...
Reverend Steve Wende, pastor at First Methodist Church of Houston which Lay attended

Did you really expect the funeral to consist of Ken Lay's family members making vulgar and hateful remarks about a dead man?

Someone here may have been to a memorial service where the eulogy was a 30 minute opportunity to insult the recently deceased, but that's not how people normally behave at a funeral.
[ohwell]

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted July 13, 2006 12:00      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think the comments are an important reminder that, ultimately, Ken Lay was a man, who had friends and family who loved him, like everyone else. He horribly wronged a lot of people, but that does not necessarily make him an evil person.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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GMx

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Icon 1 posted July 13, 2006 14:44      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Let the conspiracy theories begin!

quote:
Bermingham, one of the accused bankers, told reporters that Coulbeck was as "a superstar, a thoroughly decent, honest professional guy and a very experienced banker."


But not Jesus Christ or Martin Luther King.

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted July 13, 2006 17:01      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
I think the comments are an important reminder that, ultimately, Ken Lay was a man, who had friends and family who loved him, like everyone else. He horribly wronged a lot of people, but that does not necessarily make him an evil person.

He screwed a lot of people out of a lot of money illegally for his own game.

You're fucking right the slimeball is evil.

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted July 13, 2006 17:09      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sxepto, ASM

Kind words are expected at a memorial, even for the fallen.

I just have a problem with your ilk comparing the man to Jesus Christ. Except on one point.

I now completely understand the extremely low esteem with which you hold the God, almighty.

And now, so does the rest of the world.

We'll remember this when you hold forth on other "moral" issues.

CP

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Free! Free at last!

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted July 13, 2006 17:47      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
I think the comments are an important reminder that, ultimately, Ken Lay was a man, who had friends and family who loved him, like everyone else. He horribly wronged a lot of people, but that does not necessarily make him an evil person.

Sxepto is this charitable attitude, one you might be willing to extend to your political enemies both at home and more importantly abroad?

--------------------
"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted July 13, 2006 20:36      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
A funeral is one of the places that you're least likely to get an objective review of someone's life.

Let's imagine an honest eulogy:
quote:
John was not a smart man. In fact, he was downright stupid. If he had half the brains of a goldfish, he might still be with us today. Of course being a drunk didn't help much either; hell, there's probably no faster way to lose all your money than gambling when you're drunk and stupid. I thought John was a thief, but technically he broke everything he borrowed, so I don't suppose you could rightly say he was stealing.
 
Sympathy for the living friends and family is the major function at a funeral. Unless you've never been to one, don't act as if you expect one to be as factual as an investigative report on CNN.

quote:
July 13, 2006 17:09
I just have a problem with your ilk comparing the man to Jesus Christ.

[shake head]   "All Dogs are Animals. However, All Animals are Not Dogs." -- Using what five people say at a funeral to generalize a million or so others as "your ilk" is a rather obvious fallacy.

quote:
July 13, 2006 17:47
... is this charitable attitude, one you might be willing to extend to your political enemies both at home and more importantly abroad?

Why do you ask? Were you planning to make a point about eulogies for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi?

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted July 13, 2006 20:48      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I included a funny story about my grandparents at my grandfather's funeral, and for more than a year afterward my grandmother thought I had "put her down" and insulted her. Finally she watched the video from the funeral and admitted that I had written a touching article about Grandpa. However, she's brought up that story many times since and somehow has reverted back to her original perception of it being a slam on her.

While we were on vacation at the end of June, she brought it up again and now is of the opinion that no one is going to say anything good about her at her funeral. She thinks the only reason we said anything good about Grandpa is 'cause she was there, but when she's dead, no one will be there to keep things nice.

There's just so much more to it than that, but sometimes it makes me want to slap her silly and tell her to just grow up and get over herself. Now that she has her million, she should be happy, but instead she's paranoid and more high-strung than ever. I love Grandma dearly, but sometimes she's just utterly frustrating.

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Change the way you SEE, not the way you LOOK!

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted July 13, 2006 21:12      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
I think the comments are an important reminder that, ultimately, Ken Lay was a man, who had friends and family who loved him, like everyone else. He horribly wronged a lot of people, but that does not necessarily make him an evil person.

Sxepto is this charitable attitude, one you might be willing to extend to your political enemies both at home and more importantly abroad?
What's so charitable about it? I'm not saying he was a saint, either. My philosophy is that each person is equally capable of doing right and wrong. Some may make a larger mark on the world doing one or the other, but people are inherently ambiguous and paradoxical, and it's not my job to weigh their souls.

--------------------
Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2006 01:51      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well Sxepto I understood that you lot thought those funny brown people on the other side of the world in Ragheadia were simply bad people doing bad things, and it was the duty of the US to take them out. If your attitude has become less judgemental, may I extend a formal welcome into the ranks of the wooly minded liberals. If on the other hand you are just trying to defend him because of his political affiliations, that is pathetic. The man that emerged during his trial was highly intelligent, selfish, ruthless, and charismatic, who knew exactly what he was doing, and who wrecked many many lives while making himself obscenely rich.

To make things crystal clear, what we object to is not that the eulogy was not an objective picture of the whole man, or even the emphasis it put on his civic works, and the side of him that was a good family man, and a friend who gave and inspired great personal loyalty. Rather it was the absurd picture it tried to paint of an almost saintly Mr Lay brought down and martyred by cruel fate. Bearing in mind that this was not a private family funeral, but a public memorial service, and leaving aside the comparison with Jesus (as unlike yourself I have no personal knowledge of Him), I do think that comparing Ken Lay to Martin Luther King is, among other things, an enormous insult to the Civil Rights movement and every single non white American.

Sxepto and ASM, don't try to defend the indefensible. You make yourselves look silly.

--------------------
"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2006 07:39      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well it just has to be said:

Bigotry is pretty darned ugly no matter who it is directed toward, whichever people group, race, creed, religion, ethnic origin...whatever. It makes no sense to make a bigotted attack on others for their (supposed) bigotry.

To make observations about such groups is just that, merely making observations. But to accuse an individual (or more than one) of "wrong-thinking" merely because of a simple and sane disagreement, (i.e. those with no lethal mindsets proposing widespread hatred and mayhem), is at or near the height of bigotry.

Therefore, shame on Colonel Panic and Calli for the comments attached to the phrases "your ilk" and "you lot", respectively. You undermine your entire argument by being guilty of the very behavior you attempt to condemn. By judging entire masses of people thusly in this thread, you render your own opinions contemptable. Your comments in this are not worthy of your usual fairness and eloquence as evidenced by past performance on these boards. Kindly redeem yourselves with an apology.

And by the way, please notice that I have addressed this criticism to each of you as individuals, not because of any group to which you may belong.

garlicguy

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I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2006 08:40      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
Well Sxepto I understood that you lot thought those funny brown people on the other side of the world in Ragheadia were simply bad people doing bad things, and it was the duty of the US to take them out.

Who's "you lot"? I'm unaffiliated with any political entity. I would prefer that my statements be taken as-is, without being shoehorned into one camp or another.

As far as actions in the Middle East: to avoid going into something far more complicated than I have time for, let me just grossly oversimplify by saying that it is reasonable for a government to deal with the bad things that people do, even if the people aren't inherently evil. (The above is to be taken as a very generic comment, and neither an endorsement nor condemnation of current actions in the Middle East. No need to beat a dead horse)

quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
If your attitude has become less judgemental, may I extend a formal welcome into the ranks of the wooly minded liberals. If on the other hand you are just trying to defend him because of his political affiliations, that is pathetic.

Defend what? I had thought I was perfectly clear that Lay did wrong a lot of people. My comments are less about the man and more about the hate I see coming from people who never even met him. What good does that do?

quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
The man that emerged during his trial was highly intelligent, selfish, ruthless, and charismatic, who knew exactly what he was doing, and who wrecked many many lives while making himself obscenely rich.

I would not expect the prosecution at a trial to paint a complete or accurate picture of the man any more than I would expect those eulogizing him to do so.

quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
To make things crystal clear, what we object to is not that the eulogy was not an objective picture of the whole man, or even the emphasis it put on his civic works, and the side of him that was a good family man, and a friend who gave and inspired great personal loyalty. Rather it was the absurd picture it tried to paint of an almost saintly Mr Lay brought down and martyred by cruel fate. Bearing in mind that this was not a private family funeral, but a public memorial service, and leaving aside the comparison with Jesus (as unlike yourself I have no personal knowledge of Him), I do think that comparing Ken Lay to Martin Luther King is, among other things, an enormous insult to the Civil Rights movement and every single non white American.

While I can agree that the comparisons were inappropriate, they were the responses of friends and loved ones who refuse to believe that he was capable of the crime he was convicted of. This certainly wouldn't be the first time, nor will it be the last, that grieving people say something inappropriate before the media. Those people have just lost someone they cared about, so why should I get upset at a few quotes that the media picked up?


edit:
Thanks garlicguy. I have to admit my occasional frustration when it seems my posts are only read in order to decide which camp I must be in.

--------------------
Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2006 10:30      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
______________________________Did some one mention camp, lets go sleep under the stars, and make up images from the clouds. Now back to real time.

I just don't want to get drawn into this one.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2006 10:38      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
______________________________Did some one mention camp, lets go sleep under the stars, and make up images from the clouds. Now back to real time.

I just don't want to get drawn into this one.

Funny you should mention that. [Wink]

I'm heading out this afternoon for a week of camping and working on trails. I actually would enjoy continuing the discussion with Calli (no sarcasm intended whatsoever), but the wilderness calls. [Big Grin]

--------------------
Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2006 13:41      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't think that it is reasonable to lump all Christians in with what Dr. Bill Lawson said. Personally I am offended that he compared this man to Jesus and Martin Luther King Jr. and I am as Christian as they come.

Did you expect the reverend to say "good riddance to the old shyster"? It is expected that you don't speak ill of the dead at their funerals, but I do think he took it too far.

--------------------
Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2006 16:03      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I stand by every word.

It might not be nice to call people bigots, (and incidentally I did not use the word first), but come to mention it, the right in American politics now are an unpleasant bunch of bigots who espouse an ideology that is fundamentally evil. That is not an exaggeration, not something I relish, not words spoken in anger, it is a stone cold fact. America is in the grip of a political hysteria unlike anything seen since the McCarthy era, and the world will only become a safer place when the Republican Party finally returns to its senses and the neoconservatives and religious right are utterly crushed, and return to the lunatic fringe and political wilderness that is their natural habitat. Until that time, while the right wing is in the grip of dogmatically rigid extremists and fundamentalists, there can only be the most superficial accommodation of our differing views of the world.

To put it another way, if the dead man had not been Kenneth Lay, but another flawed individual from the other side of the great divide, say Bill Clinton, would any of you righties be doing anything other than dancing on his grave. I just doubt it.

--------------------
"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2006 16:25      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
I stand by every word.

It might not be nice to call people bigots, (and incidentally I did not use the word first), but come to mention it, the right in American politics now are an unpleasant bunch of bigots who espouse an ideology that is fundamentally evil. That is not an exaggeration, not something I relish, not words spoken in anger, it is a stone cold fact. America is in the grip of a political hysteria unlike anything seen since the McCarthy era, and the world will only become a safer place when the Republican Party finally returns to its senses and the neoconservatives and religious right are utterly crushed, and return to the lunatic fringe and political wilderness that is their natural habitat. Until that time, while the right wing is in the grip of dogmatically rigid extremists and fundamentalists, there can only be the most superficial accommodation of our differing views of the world.

To put it another way, if the dead man had not been Kenneth Lay, but another flawed individual from the other side of the great divide, say Bill Clinton, would any of you righties be doing anything other than dancing on his grave. I just doubt it.

Ok Calli,

Now you are getting down right insulting. What on Earth makes you think I am a right wing anything. If I were to classify myself, I would be a centrist libertarian. I don't even consider a lot of the right wingers true Christians {at least the ones I met in person}. They are more like the Pharisees in the Bible that only put on a show of religion and deny the truth. It is possible to be a Christian and not a conservative.

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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2006 17:06      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
To be honest Crawgator I wasn't referring to you at all, as I had no idea what your politics were until your last post, but do feel free to take it as an insult if you so wish! [Wink] However Sxepto, ASM, and to a less extreme extent GarlicGuy are definitely on the right, and as I hope my post indicated, though I don't dislike them, I wholeheartedly loathe their politics.

--------------------
"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2006 17:21      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It's pretty nervey judging and labelling others as you've just done, Calli. In addition to being wrong, (I'm a "righty"? Why? Because I disagreed with your namecalling?), you're showing your own willingness to defend your position at any cost. It seems you are doing the very thing you villify others for, EVEN when they are not guilty of your accusations.

But heck, the name calling seems fun... you pompous prat.  -

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I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Posts: 3752 | From: Pluto, no matter what you call it, is still my home. | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2006 17:55      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No you're a righty (though not as hard line as some), because of the views you have expressed in other political threads.

And I may well be pompous, but I'm right and you are wrong!

--------------------
"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2006 17:57      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If you're right and he's wrong, how come you just said he was right? [Razz]

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Worst. Celibate. Ever.

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