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Author Topic: Some serious thoughts about the USA's future.
ASM65816
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Icon 11 posted April 06, 2006 12:17      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
About GWB:

April 06, 2006 03:29 -- ... the folksy country boy Texan persona, which bizarrely nobody seems to question...
    ... who has fooled most of the US, partly because he has also fooled himself.

April 06, 2006 07:41 -- He's just making this shit up as he goes along.

April 06, 2006 08:44 -- I don't kid myself into thinking I know him at all. All we get is a 2-dimensional picture painted by the media.

April 06, 2006 09:19 -- ... and his personal history indicates a character that is a mass of contradictions.

Maybe Bush isn't running the United States...

  ... and not Cheney ...

    ... nor Congress.

Have you noticed they all have "professional" speech writers?

Coincidence, or a sign of something sinister?

 -
    [evil]     [evil]     [evil]

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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Demosthenes
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Icon 1 posted April 06, 2006 17:49      Profile for Demosthenes     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Funny, because in debates before he was "elected" the first time around, he was speaking coherently, using a decent vocabulary, and trouncing folks in arguments. The "folksy cowboy" thing is a sham, as far as I'm concerned, because such a large portion of the country has been conditioned to think that smart = evil, while bumbling but good-hearted = winnar.

(Don't believe me? Look at the movies. It's been an ongoing theme in American cinema; schmuck "regular Joe" beats out sinister, brainiac villain.)

Rallying the religious right against homosexual and women's rights is a great way to organize groups that are desperately loyal to W. I'm just not sure what to make of the "God told me to do it" lines he's been spewing as of late... [shake head]

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted April 09, 2006 15:02      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well,

One of the points made in the article, is that right now the United States is exporting its WEALTH. What's worse, is we're expring it, not for capital materiel, but luxury items.

The 'me first, country second' attitude prevalent now is leading us into a period of decadence.

Very shortly, we won't be a power, we could likely be a provence of China.

Right now Saudi Arabia, China and Japan hold 1/3 of all our debt. All they have to do is call home our markers and the USA is in fiscal crisis.

The price of gold has doubled during the current administration's reign. Traditionally that kind of activity in gold is a harbinger of financial disaster.

CP

--------------------
Free! Free at last!

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ASM65816
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Icon 5 posted April 10, 2006 07:35      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
April 09, 2006 15:02
One of the points made in the article, is that right now the United States is exporting its WEALTH.

"Exporting" US wealth isn't new. Since 1947 and the Marshall Plan, we're "exported" a lot of our wealth.
quote:
Right now Saudi Arabia, China and Japan hold 1/3 of all our debt. All they have to do is call home our markers and the USA is in fiscal crisis.
Do you it would be "just like Enron"? China plays the part of the Enron CEO's and walks away with 100% of "its money," then with US insolvency, Japan loses 95% of its investment, Saudi Arabia loses 95% of its investment, Britain loses 95% of its investment, Germany loses 95% of its investment, and France loses 95% of its investment?

Would such an action by China be viewed as "non-hostile" when the destructive consequences are absolutely clear?

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted April 10, 2006 20:47      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Not insolvency,

Depression.

25% to 50% unemployment. Millions homeless. Violence erupts in the streets.

History repeats itself and the American political scene, just like a NASCAR driver, takes one, long hard turn left.

Hillary Clinton is elected President of the United States by a landslide. Shortly thereafter, the entire staff of Fox News is seen leaping to their deaths from their office windows.

Hillary uses her mandate to repeal the 22nd Amendment so Bill can run again. She also issues her first executive order and has him chemically castrated.

In an address to the nation, Hillary picks up the copies of the NRA manuals found in Osama bin Laden's Afgahni hideout, thruthfully points out that there is a closer link between the NRA and the terrorists than Saddam Hussein and the terrorists, then issues her second executive order declaring all members of the NRA as "enemy combatants" who have no constitutional rights, and orders all members arrested.

After 15 seconds with the "Death Angel of Gitmo," Charleston Heston gives up the entire membership list of the NRA to the National Guard. Curiously, only 7 members of the NRA make good on their promises to "Give up their guns when pried from their cold, dead fingers," ... and those guys had been hunting with Dick Cheney.

The rest of the enemy combatants are housed in now abandoned NASCAR tracks. Most of the interred think its race day and begin flashing, "Show us your tits!" signs. Sadly only guys with beer bellies and man-breats respond.

The fun and games end when Hillary, knowing the enemy combatants have no constitutional rights, sells the prisoners at $100 a head to help pay off the debt to Communist China.

The Chinese who have a nasty reputation of harvesting the organs of their prisoners, sue Hillary once they learn none of the Republicans she sold them have any hearts.

She counters pointing out the shipping fees the Chinese saved because the Republicans didn't have any guts, nuts or brains either.

With rednecks sold to China, America begins to recover.

Pickup trucks with little boys peeing in back windows disappear from the roads. So does road rage. No one ever opens "a can of whoop-ass" ever again. The goons at homeland security quit soliciting little girls online and start responding to hurricanes. Trailer parks and cable news shows go bankrupt and empty. Jerry Springer is forced to find honest work. Strippers can't get ahead and go back to school to earn degrees. Anna Nichole Smith gets a Ph.D. and cures the common cold.

(Almost like when George Baily doesn't commit suicide, isn't it?)

Productivty skyrockets. Money is invested in schools again.

And a meter maid gives a quarter to a man who needs a quarter.

Hey -- Maybe you're right. Something good might happen.

Nahhhhh.

CP

--------------------
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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted April 11, 2006 07:25      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You sir, are my fucking hero.
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GMx

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Icon 14 posted April 11, 2006 07:35      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Amen! [Beard of Peter Gabriel!] [thumbsup]
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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted April 11, 2006 08:21      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The Colonel has a very personnal (and entertaining) way to put things into perspective. Salute! [Applause]

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Eppur, si muove!

Galileo Galilei

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ASM65816
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Icon 2 posted April 11, 2006 09:48      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
April 10, 2006 20:47
With rednecks sold to China, America begins to recover.

[shake head] Oh .... All of the United States' problems are the result of "rednecks" (and the fact they are allowed to vote).

EDIT: Actually, Rednecks aren't sold to China, although that's the government issued statement. With high unemployment, Hillary guarantees food and shelter for all Americans that need welfare. No one tells the people that the food is laced with sleeping-pills, and the "welfare recipients" are placed on ships to China where their organs are harvested (for a hefty profit).

quote:
25% to 50% unemployment. Millions homeless. Violence erupts in the streets.
You forgot to mention a few things about those unemployment stats: Black and white Americans will be unemployed. Industrial and Agricultural production will remain unchanged as 35 million "undocumented" Mexican workers have jobs. Even when homeless and "uneducated," "whites and blacks" will still refuse to work construction, hotel housekeeping, and restaurant service jobs.
quote:
Hillary ... issues her second executive order declaring all members of the NRA as "enemy combatants" who have no constitutional rights, and orders all members arrested.
This happens after "persons of non-US-citizenship" are shot while crossing into the US "without legal authority." Hillary makes it illegal to for any US citizen to own weapons, except for objects with blades less than 3 inches long. The "workforce of America" is now protected in America. CEO's congratulate Hillary for her swift action. (Corporations are still allowed to employ their own private, and well-armed, "security forces.")
quote:
Productivity skyrockets.
Actually, production never declined in the first place. The term "skyrocket" is just media spin, and under Hillary, the US becomes just like China: the masses serve the state, and dissent is forcibly suppressed. As for "money," it will remain in hands of those who control the masses -- No change there.

By the way....

Since, California, Massachusetts, and New York have a thousand times the buying power of all "rednecks" combined: How is it that only the "rednecks" are singled-out for their role in the trade deficit?

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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ooby
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Icon 1 posted April 11, 2006 13:18      Profile for ooby     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This guy was on The Daily Show and there's some commentary about him on Slate Magazine
.

The gist of the article is that he wrote a strategy book for the GOP that provided terrible advice and now he's writing something for the other side. I'd take his work with a grain of salt.

Not for nothing, his wild conspiracy theory is really easy to play into-it says what a lot of people want to hear. But please, think of Occam's Razor.

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted April 12, 2006 02:46      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ooby:
This guy was on The Daily Show and there's some commentary about him on Slate Magazine
.

The gist of the article is that he wrote a strategy book for the GOP that provided terrible advice and now he's writing something for the other side. I'd take his work with a grain of salt.

Not for nothing, his wild conspiracy theory is really easy to play into-it says what a lot of people want to hear. But please, think of Occam's Razor.

From the article on slate
quote:
Jacob Weisberg
Phillips' argument is that oil dependency, Christian fundamentalism, and excessive debt are destroying the country. He is not wrong that these are dangers. But he wildly misunderstands, distorts, and overstates all of them. .... Thirty pages later, having presented no evidence and answered no objections (So, why did the oil companies oppose the Iraq war?), he restates his claim. ... At least Michael Moore tries to make us laugh when he says stuff like this.

ASM seems to be his monkey, buying in to all this and even adopting his argument style.

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ASM65816
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Icon 2 posted April 12, 2006 09:57      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
from Kevin Phillips article:
... what did or did not happen to Rome, imperial Spain, the Dutch Republic and Britain is irrelevant. The catch here, alas, is that these nations also thought they were unique and that God was on their side.

Rome collapsed because they thought God was on their side? Rome was a Theocracy?
quote:
Here's what other people say:

Some historians in this camp believe that Rome "brought it on themselves," i.e., ensured their own collapse by either misguided policies or degradation of character.
...
The historian Vegetius theorised that the Roman Empire declined and fell due to a combination of increasing contact with barbarians and the subsequent "barbarization", as well as a surge in decadence and the following lethargy. This resulted in complacency and ill-discipline among the legions, making it primarily a military issue.
...
Edward Gibbon famously placed the blame on a loss of civic virtue among the Roman citizens.
...
Ludwig von Mises argued that the inflation and the price controls promoted by the later emperors destroyed the economic system of the ancient world, this leading into hyperinflation, deterioration of the imperial economical basis and transfer to barter economy instead of a more advanced monetary economy.
...
On the other hand, some historians have argued that the collapse of Rome was outside the Romans' control.

K.P. is the "only" person that believes "Rome collapsed because they thought God was on their side."

Mr. Phillips is delusional, (must be illiterate,) and hasn't got a clue on history.
quote:
hubris: (noun) excessive pride or self-confidence.
Thinking "it can't happen to me" is hubris, or "arrogance" if you prefer a more common term. Not Theocracy as K.P. insists.

#include sarcasm.h [shake head]
Maybe all the historians were wrong about the collapse of Rome. Gee, how could they not see that "Belief in God" (Theocracy) brought down the Roman Empire.

FYI: In case "you" haven't noticed, I don't have to "buy into Jacob Weisberg" to contradict K.P.'s garbage: A typical encyclopedia and a dictionary provide more than enough to do the job.

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted April 23, 2006 17:10      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ChildeRoland:
I hate when people allege that Bush lied to the UN. Do you have any evidence of that?

You probably hate America, too, Chide.

Bush lied outwardly, and he threatened those who disagreed with him. He admitted to this when he admitted he declassified information in order to embarass his critics. It's obvious to most observers that he authorized the "outing" of Valerie Plame an agent of the CIA -- letting all those know that if any agent's (or her husband's) assesment of the war disagreed with his, that their career was over.

This is true in the US military as well, and Bush has had an open policy of firing any officer who disagreed with him. Therefore officers have had to retire to speak out.

I'm a combat veteran of the the Vietnam war. I suffered under your type of thinking. I sent letters home to the parents and spouses of the dead.

The worst enemy I have faced, are the enemies of America who are now so visciously attacking my brothers and sisters who have sacrificed on the battlefield; overwhelmingly this enemy has never served in combat and never sacrificed a tax dollar for a war they so vociferously desire.

We lost this war in Iraq when America's priveliged conservatives voted to announce that they did not want to sacrifice their tax dollars to win this war. It was selfish and cheap -- and the GREATEST COMFORT OF ALL to our enemies.

"The Americans love their money more than their soldiers or values." That's all the losers of this war had to say to embolden the enemy. That vote gave the enemy victory.

It happened in 'Nam. it happens now.

Most geeks in here are old enough to pick up a gun and go fight for that fight.

I fought way back when.

What are you doing? Helping the enemy by playing video games on the home front? Fighting America's Combat Veterans, instead of the enemy?

Because when you pick a fight with me, that's what you are doing.

Try this link before attempting to get high and mighty with me:http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/frontpagenews


Colonel Panic

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YaYawoman

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Icon 1 posted April 23, 2006 20:33      Profile for YaYawoman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Col Panic

There are many thoughts and opinions you have posted that i agree with, and some that I dont. Usually it is just a nod of my head,or in the cases I disagree a crease between my brows.

Today I feel the need to actually post a reply.
I saw what you said to childeroland. I feel he is offbase about Bush as well butwhat you said was wrong. He hates his country? How dare you? Shame on you!

And before you pull your high and mighty veteran line, I am a veteran too. Truly there are many civilians who just dont "get it"but I would never call into question a person's love for country based on which candidate he voted for and whether or not he supports the current president.

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted April 24, 2006 10:54      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I happened to hear a local radio DJ put the "Bush lied" thing this way: "If they lied, you would think they'd have picked a lie that wouldn't make them look like assholes afterwards."

Bush was wrong. Most people accept that. However, there is not sufficient evidence to convince a lot of people that he lied. He should have known better, but he wouldn't be the first person to misread the evidence based on what he wanted to see.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted April 24, 2006 14:33      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Come on Sxepto! Bush isn't that stupid. There was never any evidence of WMDs that could be described as feasible let alone convincing. Either way though he's equally guilty, either as bare faced liar, or culpably criminally venally stupid. An accountable democratic leader does not go to war purely on the basis of faith and prayer. He should be impeached.

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Icon 1 posted April 24, 2006 14:36      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
Come on Sxepto! Bush isn't that stupid. There was never any evidence of WMDs that could be described as feasible let alone convincing. Either way though he's equally guilty, either as bare faced liar, or culpably criminally venally stupid. An accountable democratic leader does not go to war purely on the basis of faith and prayer. He should be impeached.

 -

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted April 24, 2006 15:22      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
Bush was wrong. Most people accept that. However, there is not sufficient evidence to convince a lot of people that he lied.

The evidence is there for those willing to see it.
quote:
When no weapons of mass destruction surfaced in Iraq, President Bush insisted that all those WMD claims before the war were the result of faulty intelligence. But a former top CIA official, Tyler Drumheller — a 26-year veteran of the agency — has decided to do something CIA officials at his level almost never do: Speak out.

He told correspondent Ed Bradley on "60 Minutes" on Sunday the real failure was not in the intelligence community but in the White House. He says he saw how the Bush administration, time and again, welcomed intelligence that fit the president's determination to go to war and turned a blind eye to intelligence that did not.



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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted April 24, 2006 17:05      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
Come on Sxepto! Bush isn't that stupid. There was never any evidence of WMDs that could be described as feasible let alone convincing. Either way though he's equally guilty, either as bare faced liar, or culpably criminally venally stupid. An accountable democratic leader does not go to war purely on the basis of faith and prayer. He should be impeached.

Intelligence, or lack thereof, can often have little to do with it. I've run across some damn smart bigots. Sometimes people have trouble accepting information that doesn't fit their existing assumptions.

quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
Bush was wrong. Most people accept that. However, there is not sufficient evidence to convince a lot of people that he lied.

The evidence is there for those willing to see it.
quote:
When no weapons of mass destruction surfaced in Iraq, President Bush insisted that all those WMD claims before the war were the result of faulty intelligence. But a former top CIA official, Tyler Drumheller — a 26-year veteran of the agency — has decided to do something CIA officials at his level almost never do: Speak out.

He told correspondent Ed Bradley on "60 Minutes" on Sunday the real failure was not in the intelligence community but in the White House. He says he saw how the Bush administration, time and again, welcomed intelligence that fit the president's determination to go to war and turned a blind eye to intelligence that did not.


quote:
"One panel after another found that agencies were giving conflicting information to the president," Bradley remarked.

Drumheller admits they were. "And that's the problem. No. There was no one voice in coming out of the intelligence community and that allowed those people to pick and choose those bits of information that fit what they wanted to know."

You see, "Bush lied" assumes that all the information was getting to him in a sensible manner. All it takes is a few toadies looking to gain favor to really screw everything up. So, no, the information isn't as clear-cut as some would believe.

---

My point is not that Bush did or did not lie, but that it's difficult to be sure. The thing is, I see "Bush lied" as a bit of left-wing propoganda (and I know some of you don't believe such a thing exists, but I still do). It whips people already on the left into a frenzy, but someone to the middle or right might not buy it at all.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted April 24, 2006 17:58      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
Sometimes people have trouble accepting information that doesn't fit their existing assumptions.

QED!

Your line of reasoning is that despite the fact that evaluating information is the President's job, we can't hold him responsible for not realising (what any 9 year old would have) that he didn't actually have any solid intelligence on Iraq, because he is the President and you like him.

Right? [crazy]

Of course he is a lying toad. Face it.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted April 24, 2006 21:16      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
Sometimes people have trouble accepting information that doesn't fit their existing assumptions.

QED!

Your line of reasoning is that despite the fact that evaluating information is the President's job, we can't hold him responsible for not realising (what any 9 year old would have) that he didn't actually have any solid intelligence on Iraq, because he is the President and you like him.

Not at all. He most certainly was responsible. However, saying that he lied assumes something that may or may not be true.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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ooby
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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2006 08:29      Profile for ooby     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
There are only two scenarios where I can see a possible impeachment. They both revolve around whether or not an impeachment can survive a vote in Congress.

The first is if the President and Republican Congressmen become estranged. Even though there is some dissonance within the Republican Party, it will probably not be strong enough to muster up enough supporting votes.

The second scenario is if the mid-term elections result in the Democratic Party regaining the majority.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2006 13:59      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ooby:
The second scenario is if the mid-term elections result in the Democratic Party regaining the majority.

Don't you need a 2/3 majority for impeachment?

It would have to be a fair landslide to deliver 2/3 of congress to the dems.

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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2006 23:59      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Bush lied
(said again, and again, and again)

Some people just don't get it: In some circles, the UN has all the credibility of a broken watch. (Only right two times a day.) If you believe that a report is "incomplete," it's not lying to contradict the report. Before the Iraq war started, Bush didn't have to "trick" Congress into thinking Saddam was a threat, Congress already knew Saddam was a murdering psychopath that would not be stopped with words. Only after the war became unpopular did they jump around screaming "we were tricked."

So...

Why do "some of you" place absolute trust in what the UN says?

If an information source is generally wrong, why would you quote it?

Two theories are:
    1. Being a Fool
    2. Lying for the sake of one's argument.

The line "Bush knew there were no WMD because Bush knew the UN inspectors were right" assumes a person would trust the "findings" of UN groups.

The evidence that the UN is wrong, time, after time, after time, is pretty substantial. The UN didn't know about Oil for Food kickbacks to Saddam? The UN didn't know about Saddam smuggling billions of dollars of oil? The UN didn't know about Kofi Annan's son having "improper business relations" in the Oil for Food program? The UN "misjudged" the situation in Rwanda? (Resulting in 800,000 dead.) The UN is ending the "crisis" in Darfur? To top it off, when Saddam said "you can't inspect me," the UN stopped weapons inspections for three years.

Why would anyone insist that others accept a UN report as accurate and complete?

Some people seem to simultaneously hold contradictory opinions about Saddam:

  a) Saddam was "good" because he didn't have WMD.
  b) Saddam was "bad." When Saddam's "other" activities are mentioned, it's a "Straw-man" tactic because of the obviousness of Saddam's "misdeeds" (and the subject is extended beyond WMD).

For the "nth" time, with the exception of WMD, every "misdeed" of Saddam implicates UN members of conspiracy with Saddam. ("You" may believe that UN members bought $9 billion in oil from Iraq without knowing they were violating UN sanctions; I disagree.)

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

Posts: 1035 | From: Third rock from sun. | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ashitaka

SuperFan!
Member # 4924

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Icon 1 posted April 26, 2006 00:18      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
Hey, ASM...

I'm curious about something. Why do you put quotes from multiple posters in a single reply without any indication of the original poster's identity? Do you regard everyone else on the forums as one entity to whom you are responding?



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"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

Posts: 3089 | From: Switzerland | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged


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