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Author Topic: Socialism Run Amok? Or Something Else?
drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted April 04, 2006 07:06      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by drunkennewfiemidget:
Canada == World's largest french population that hasn't surrendered to the British. [Wink]

Um, not wanting to pick a fight with the Quebecois here, but isn't there a whole long story about general Wolfe, the battle of Quebec, and 'New France' becoming a british territory?
How does this get spun to be not surrendering?

Easy: they didn't surrender at the Abraham's plain battle. They fought, and lost. But before the troops from Montreal could take the city back, France gave us in exchange for European territory they had lost (which is slightly better than being sold, I guess). Even after that, no one accepted to forswear the King of France and Catolicism, let alone give up our language. Later in our history, some were even foolish enough to try regain independance by force. Since then, we've learned better, and prefer the political way - with not so good results either, I must add... [Roll Eyes]
And stopped speaking French and began to speak Québecois/Jouale/Franglais. [Wink]
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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted April 14, 2006 10:15      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This story has legs....

France: Apple Should Have Expected DRM Law

Friday, April 14th, 2006 at 12:00 PM - by Staff

The French Trade Minister, Christine Lagarde, commented on Apple and the proposed French digital rights management (DRM) laws while on a trade visit to the United States. According to PhysOrg, she said "Any time a company restricts competition in a market, it gets the attention of regulating agencies. We have to play by the rules of the game."

She also said that it should come as no surprise to Apple that France would challenge the Fairplay DRM iTunes and iPod system.

Many, however, feel that Apple is not restricting the market because it has not taken actions to force its competitors out of the French music download business.

The proposed French law will require music download services to share their DRM copy protection technology with any company that asks. Such a law would force companies like Apple, Sony, and Microsoft to turn over their proprietary code, and open their music services to competitors.

France contends that music downloads should not be restricted to specific MP3 players.

Should France enact the law, analysts predict that Apple would shut down the French iTunes Music Store before opening its DRM technology to competitors.

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My feeling is the if France enacts this law it will see a serious backlash as companies pull out of France rather than open their DRM. Is this ironic?

Is the likeliness of companies pulling out so great as to be almost certain? If so, then, with France being aware of this beforehand is it purely "consumer interest" on their mind or arrogance?

I don't know the answers to these questions. It does seem to me that enacting this law would actually harm consumers rather than help them.

Best,

Dan

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"Corporate America (or place your country here)" is one of those weird religions that still believes in human sacrifice.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted April 14, 2006 17:03      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Danimal wrote:
This story has legs....

We can fix that

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GMx

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Icon 1 posted April 14, 2006 17:23      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Danimal:
This story has legs....

Then it can run away from here...
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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted April 16, 2006 10:07      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GMx:
quote:
Originally posted by Danimal:
This story has legs....

Then it can run away from here...
I happen to feel that the development of this topic falls under the forum guildelines of "Found any cool news or a neat link? You find it, we'll talk about it!"

If no one comments on a post/thread, it dies. Thanks for your reply. Dismissive or otherwise it is still a contribution.

Best,

Danimal

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"Corporate America (or place your country here)" is one of those weird religions that still believes in human sacrifice.

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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted April 27, 2006 07:28      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I found this in the NY Times today. The URL is http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/27/technology/27scene.html?ex=1146801600&en=90061f6458b0b644&ei=5070&emc=eta1

This article makes a lot of sense. I'm convinced that if France goes ahead and passes this legislation it is going to see a backlash from other countries which will harm its companies and consumers in more ways than just the online music industry.

As I have said, this is an interesting story to watch (IMHO).

Economic Scene
In iTunes War, France Has Met the Enemy. Perhaps It Is France.

Article Tools Sponsored By
By AUSTAN GOOLSBEE
Published: April 27, 2006

THE French take pride in their revolutions, which are usually hard to miss — mass uprisings, heads rolling and such. So, with the scent of tear gas in the air this past month from the giant protests against a youth labor law, it was easy to overlook the French National Assembly's approval of a bill that would require Apple Computer to crack open the software codes of its iTunes music store and let the files work on players other than the iPod. While seemingly minor, the move is actually rather startling and has left many experts wondering (as ever): What has possessed the French?

More is at stake than just whether French teenagers can get Chimène Badi tracks at iTunes for 0.99 euro. The move may signify a willingness to question the patents, copyrights and trade secrets of other successful products as well, like electronics, pharmaceuticals, even fast food. Might we soon see a French legislator demanding to know if it is fair that customers of the French fast-food chain Quick cannot get its signature burger, Le Giant, with McDonald's special sauce?

In their fervor to free listeners from the shackles of their iPods, French politicians have abandoned one of the guiding principles of antitrust economics: penalize companies that harm consumers, not the ones that succeed by building better products.

Antitrust authorities normally follow well-established procedures when considering such moves. They weigh the loss to consumers of not being able to play iTunes songs on other players against the damage that forcing iTunes to open might have on innovation. France's own Competition Council did a similar analysis in 2004 and ruled that Apple's refusal to share the iTunes codes did not harm consumers. The legislature paid no mind to such analysis and seems not to have considered innovation at all. Therein lies the danger.

Apple largely created the online market for legal music. The record labels' own attempts flopped embarrassingly. Until iTunes, virtually no one paid for online music. Since then, iTunes has sold more than one billion songs. Its success comes largely from two crucial innovations.

First, Apple's music store is simple and works extremely well with the iPod. Find the music. Click "Buy It." Drag the files onto the iPod icon. That's it. Experiences with other players and music stores are far more complicated.

Further, iTunes keeps getting better. Apple has added video capability, celebrity play lists, exclusive music, the ability to convert home movies into iPod format, and many other features — all free.

Second, iTunes has lots of music. Largely because of the innovative iTunes FairPlay copy protection and digital rights management software, Apple persuaded major record labels to let them sell much of their best content online. The combination of simplicity and variety proved a huge winner.

If the French gave away the codes, Apple would lose much of its rationale for improving iTunes. Right now, after the royalty payment to the label (around 65 cents) and the processing fee to the credit card company (as high as 23 cents), not to mention other costs, Apple's margin on 99-cent music is thin. Yet it continues to add free features to iTunes because it helps sell iPods.

Opening the codes threatens that link. Apple would need to pay for iTunes features with profits from iTunes itself. Prices would rise. Innovation would slow.

Even worse, sharing the codes could make it easier for hackers to unravel Apple's FairPlay software. Without strong copy protection, labels would not supply as much new music. Indeed, Apple argues that sharing the codes could make the pirates' job easy enough to wipe out the legal market. Agitators might claim that this is the very goal of the French bill: why else would it also reduce the maximum fine for consumers caught illegally downloading music from 300,000 euros (about $371,000) to just 38 euros (less than $47)?

Sharing the iTunes codes would undermine the two innovations that Apple used to create the online market for legal music in the first place. With France accounting for only 5 percent of iTunes sales, Apple would probably shut down iTunes in France rather than give up the codes.

B. Zorina Kahn, an economic historian at Bowdoin College in Maine and author of "The Democratization of Invention" (Cambridge University Press and National Bureau of Economic Research, 2005) finds the French move puzzling.

"In the past," Dr. Kahn says, "France has been the global leader in enforcing strong copyrights." Usually, rich countries don't meddle with others' intellectual property because they fear retaliation. So why don't the French fear retaliation now?

One reason may be that they have concluded France will never really compete. If the Internet will always have an American accent, why not go after it? Sometimes, the red flag of revolution is surprisingly hard to distinguish from the white flag of surrender.

The other reason, though, could be that the French politicians simply did not consider the possibility that other countries might retaliate against the intellectual property of French companies. The heads of several French biotechnology, telecommunications and electronics companies are probably starting to fidget.

The fate of France's budding intellectual property revolution now rests with the French Senate, which will decide in the coming days whether to proceed. Before declaring pre-emptive war on iTunes, however, perhaps the French would do best to remember a lesson from 1789. Sometimes the very people calling for revolution are the ones who end up losing their heads.

Austan Goolsbee is a professor of economics at the University of Chicago, Graduate School of Business and a research fellow at the American Bar Foundation.

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted April 27, 2006 07:46      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Egads! Yir awl French.

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I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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ooby
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Icon 1 posted April 27, 2006 08:37      Profile for ooby     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Maybe I like to use the music I buy on whatever medium I choose. I happen to like my Brand-X MP3 over the iPod. I think this law is a good first step in reforming IP law.

Frankly, I don't understand how you can oppose this law so strongly.

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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted April 27, 2006 10:09      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My reason for being opposed (not strongly opposed, just opposed) to it comes from what I feel is a common sense point of view.

When one looks at all of the variable outside of the control of France I don't see how any what they are considering is going to foment change in this area.

Furthermore, I don't see how it is going to actually help its consituency when their very own Competition Council did a similar analysis in 2004 and ruled that Apple's refusal to share the iTunes codes did not harm consumers. The legislature paid no mind to such analysis and seems not to have considered innovation at all. Therein lies the danger.

Best,

Dan

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canadiangeek
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Icon 1 posted April 28, 2006 09:30      Profile for canadiangeek     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm just happy that France has finally (As of April 10th) dropped their youth-labour law that has caused so much fury among their people.

I know I'd be pissed off if Canada passed such a law.

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Cinnamin
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Icon 1 posted April 28, 2006 09:32      Profile for Cinnamin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
They just need to pull out of France and not sell to them.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 7 posted April 28, 2006 17:25      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
History has shown that pulling out doesn't really work all that well.
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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted April 29, 2006 08:17      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
In all fairness to the other side of the debate I found this link which gives Frances point of view.

This is the link... http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/04/28/technology/itunes.php

It is a very long article so I won't post it all here. Still, I would encouragen anyone who is following this and who wants to get the other side of the argument to read it thoroughly.

Best,

Dan

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"Corporate America (or place your country here)" is one of those weird religions that still believes in human sacrifice.

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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted April 29, 2006 20:37      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
History has shown that pulling out doesn't really work all that well.

LOL. I get the sense that someone isn't talking about music. [Smile]

Best,

Dan

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"Corporate America (or place your country here)" is one of those weird religions that still believes in human sacrifice.

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted April 30, 2006 10:15      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Danimal:
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
History has shown that pulling out doesn't really work all that well.

LOL. I get the sense that someone isn't talking about music. [Smile]
Nothing gets past you, does it captain obvious? [Wink]
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GrumpySteen

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Icon 14 posted April 30, 2006 11:46      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Danimal wrote:
LOL. I get the sense that someone isn't talking about music. [Smile]

You're starting to get it! >90% of what I post tends to be joking and/or humorous. Even the stuff about myself. [Smile]

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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted May 01, 2006 05:49      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
Danimal wrote:
LOL. I get the sense that someone isn't talking about music. [Smile]

You're starting to get it! >90% of what I post tends to be joking and/or humorous. Even the stuff about myself. [Smile]

Fine. Just toss a smiley in there occasionally for the sake of the noob. [Smile] [Razz]

Best,

Dan

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted May 01, 2006 11:33      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Danimal:
Fine. Just toss a smiley in there occasionally for the sake of the noob. [Smile] [Razz]

Best,

Dan

Only if you stop signing every fuggin' post, because it is goddamn annoying.

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(!) (T) = 8-D

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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted May 02, 2006 05:39      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It's the way that I have always done it and it is the way that I will continue to do it. It's nothing personal. It's a habit.

Sorry if that bothers you. It is not my intent to bother you or anyone else with it however it is not something that I am going to change either.

Best,

Dan

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eulalie
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Icon 1 posted May 14, 2006 00:06      Profile for eulalie         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It might intrest you to know that Marx and Engles not only wrote The Communist Manefesto, but also Das Capital - the definitive outline of Capitalism. I only mention this because I believe that those commenting here, like most "Red-Blooded" Americans here the name Marx and instanly think of The Comunist Manefesto- partly to do with Marx's own political veiws and the rest to the insidious propaganda machine of the 50's and 60's.
This is not the place to give a full on lecture on the differences in Communism and Sosialism, the former being evil and the latter capable of succes. Socialism ask individuals for a high tax rate ensuring common nececities are fullfilled. Communism sees everyone as equal therefore everyone has equal entitlement.
For living examples of the three major economic structure look at Switzerland and France- Socialist, The US and Britain- Capitalist, and finally Cuba the Former USSR and a slew of third world countries- Communism.


To answer the original post, it seems as if though you are overcomplicating the situation. If I want to burn to cd I have to convert to CDA- I don't see it happening, but it does. When I first wanted to use an MP3 I had to download a Codec. So why does it matter what format the digital music is in when I get it- just as long as I get it. Plus it seems pretty retarded to offer a player that can only run one type of file- my IPod doesn't if it did that would be paramount to buying a seperate computer for word processing, internet, video games, music, graphics, mmovies, etc. I don't think even one consumer would be willing to do that- and remember, after all, in a free market a readily available product is only goverened by what fetures the consumer is willing to pay for.

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted May 14, 2006 01:07      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
When I first wanted to use an MP3 I had to download a Codec. So why does it matter what format the digital music is in when I get it- just as long as I get it.
- mp3 is lossy and patented.
- wmv is horrible, and has copyright/patent issues depending on the internal formats
- mov I believe is partly free, but poorly implimented in anything other QuickTime.
- ogg is open (free as in speech), free (free as in beer) and lossless.
http://www.vorbis.com/
http://www.vorbis.com/faq/#fan

Plus it seems pretty retarded to offer a player that can only run one type of file- my IPod doesn't if it did that would be paramount to buying a seperate computer for word processing, internet, video games, music, graphics, mmovies, etc.

1.) Bad anology. You can use the same file format for all media (mpeg and ogg both handle audio and video). It'd be like having a program that opened only one type of files ... Like most do. Only in hardware. Your analogy more applies to buying a media player that isn't a phone, PDA and flash storage device as well.

I don't think even one consumer would be willing to do that-

2.) Even if your analogy was right, there is still a market... There are people who bought word processors, instead of a computer and a printer for cost and ease of use. There are people who don't buy combination devices (like everyone buying iPods).

and remember, after all, in a free market a readily available product is only goverened by what fetures the consumer is willing to pay for.

And freeeeedom is indeed a feature.

Anyone know any good linux compatible Ogg hardware players? Preferably open hardware. [Big Grin]

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 14, 2006 01:54      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
- ogg is open (free as in speech), free (free as in beer) and lossless.

Um, no. (but 2 out of 3 isn't bad)
Ogg is lossy (but reputedly better than mp3 at any given compression level)

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted May 14, 2006 13:24      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well, TFD, ogg flac is still ogg ( [Big Grin] ), but not as well compressed as (native) flac... I was sure vorbis was lossless, but I guess I was wrong. Thanks for clearing that up. Now, I've got to re rip everying... [Big Grin] ...j/k.

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