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Author Topic: Socialism Run Amok? Or Something Else?
ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted March 27, 2006 23:41      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
March 27, 2006 07:33
... force online music vendors to make their music compatible with any music player.

March 27, 2006 16:47
... it's clear that the law is not promoting piracy ....

The resort analogy is flawed.... A better version is selling "All Day" passes that don't have identifying dates. It's fine for honest people, but there are problems if the "pass" is used day after day and "loaned" to others.

The "promoting piracy" is about selling music files without DRM, and how people have made "large numbers of unauthorized copies" of unprotected files.

"Compatible with any music player" translates to "unprotected file" (no DRM). Apple's contracts won't let them sell unprotected files.

If France is concerned about proprietary data formats making files unusable on devices from other manufacturers, maybe they should ban MS Access database until MS Access runs under Mac OS X (PowerPC). What about Microsoft generated HTML code that does not work properly under other browsers?

France could insist on a "French-standard-music-DRM." However, such a standard would not be compatible with "old" music players, and would violate "compatible with any music player."
quote:
There is -nothing- on iTunes that you can't illegally download in a non-DRM format elsewhere.
Apple's point was that DRM "encourages" legal music downloads:
quote:
March 22, 2006, 19:28
... just when legitimate alternatives to piracy are winning over customers.

PS: Anyone can "remove" iTunes DRM by burning an audio CD (legal for 3 copies, IIRC).

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted March 27, 2006 23:48      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
The resort analogy is flawed.... A better version is selling "All Day" passes that don't have identifying dates. It's fine for honest people, but there are problems if the "pass" is used day after day and "loaned" to others.


The resort analogy is apt, APT! NOt only that but you responded with a flawed analogy? Passes with not set dates?? WTF

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"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted March 28, 2006 00:40      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I've come across some of those one-day passes that don't specify a date. It makes me, as a proofreader, laugh. My family's used undated one-day passes to cover multiple people. We figure, if they wanted to make sure only one person used the pass on one specific day, they'd specify it.

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ASM65816
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Icon 4 posted March 28, 2006 15:00      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
March 27, 2006 23:48
The resort analogy is apt, APT!

March 27, 2006, 07:33
Imagine if someone built a resort so beautiful that vacationers swarmed to it, and the French passed a law requiring the resort owners to let French citizens stay at the resort for free.

Did France say Apple had to make songs available for "free"? No.

"Highly Vulnerable to Theft" is not the same as "Free." If the music was "free," why even charge for music that doesn't have DRM?
quote:
March 22, 2006, 19:28
iPod sales will likely increase as users freely load their iPods with 'interoperable' music which cannot be adequately protected. Free movies for iPods should not be far behind in what will rapidly become a state-sponsored culture of piracy.

Apple is "more than happy" to let people play "free music" on iPods. However, Apple would like to remind France that "profit oriented" music publishers, distributors, and copyright holders may suffer "high market penetration through non-revenue operations" (piracy) as a result of this directive.   [Geek]

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted March 28, 2006 18:20      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It's not really worth responding, but I'm going to anyway.

Do you know what Audible.com is doing?

What they are doing is selling audio books which can be downloaded to MP3 players and are DRM protected. What they aren't doing is pissing off France (not that I'm entirely opposed to doing that). The fact is, they support a couple hundred models of MP3 players from 26 manufacturers and DRM is implemented on them all. They are open to any manufacturer who wants to make their device compatible with their service.

And they aren't doing is getting into a pissing match with the government of France. Go figure.

Apple, on the other hand, refuses to allow interoperability between other devices and iTunes as well as interoperability between the iPod and other music sales channels. When Real tried to translate their DRM protected music into Fairplay protected files that the iPod could load, Apple hit the roof and called out the lawyers.

Apple's implementation of DRM is intended to lock iTunes and the iPod together and, since you'll lose your music if you change players, lock the customer into a single choice if at all possible. This is not, at this time, illegal.

Finally, if you want to get into manipulating the truth and using false logic, how about this: Apple supports only the Fairplay DRM with the iPod. As a result, anyone with an iPod who wishes to purchase music from a service other than iTunes must either find a service that provides DRM-free files or remove the DRM from those files before they can be placed on the iPod. Apple is, therefor, promoting the cracking of DRM and the spread of DRM free files. Apple is actually promoting piracy while claiming otherwise.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted March 28, 2006 19:24      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It seems to me that the free market is, in the end, its own worst enemy. Businesses don't want competitors. They want monopolies. They want everyone buying their product and only their product. I wouldn't call that a free market.

I can play two types of music files on my iPod: the type I bought from iTunes and the MP3s I acquired illegally. I wish I could play oggs on my iPod, but it seems that I can't. 'Tis rather sad. I have been given some rather nice oggs.

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted March 28, 2006 19:36      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
I have been given some rather nice oggs.

Well, once you can use your oggs, here's some nice bacon to go along with 'em! [Big Grin]

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted March 28, 2006 20:26      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
It seems to me that the free market is, in the end, its own worst enemy. Businesses don't want competitors. They want monopolies. They want everyone buying their product and only their product. I wouldn't call that a free market.

I can play two types of music files on my iPod: the type I bought from iTunes and the MP3s I acquired illegally. I wish I could play oggs on my iPod, but it seems that I can't. 'Tis rather sad. I have been given some rather nice oggs.

Hmm...I've been completely ignoring this thread...but then I saw Oggs mentioned in the Active Topics, and my ears perked up. [Big Grin]

Wow...do you realize that you have eloquently stated what many people froth at the mouth about on /.? Nicely done. [Smile]

(I'm also remotely flattered by the subject matter. [Razz] [And saddened at the uninformed attempt at a pun that followed it.])

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted March 28, 2006 20:34      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
[And saddened at the uninformed attempt at a pun that followed it.])

Hey! I'll have you know I deliberated long and hard (for about two seconds) about posting a link to .mid files. "Si bheg, si mor" is one of my favorite Irish tunes. If I had a real recording of it (not just a MIDI file), I'd be listening to it in iTunes. [Razz]

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ChildeRoland
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Icon 1 posted March 29, 2006 04:30      Profile for ChildeRoland     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
...

I can play two types of music files on my iPod: the type I bought from iTunes and the MP3s I acquired illegally. I wish I could play oggs on my iPod, but it seems that I can't. 'Tis rather sad. I have been given some rather nice oggs.

What about legally aquired CDs?

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=====================
Childe Roland

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted March 29, 2006 08:16      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
1) I haven't bought a CD in years. The ones I have were gifts. Some were acquired legally and wrapped up in pretty packages with cards. Others were burned and handed to me with a smile.
2) I thought ripping was on the verge of being outlawed.

I can, however, play the MP3s that someone else burned onto a CD and gave to me.

--------------------
And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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zesovietrussian
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Icon 1 posted March 29, 2006 11:28      Profile for zesovietrussian     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Xanthine: Can't you convert you OGG files to MP3?
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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted March 29, 2006 11:43      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Probably. I'll have to see what I've got when I have some free time and energy. That's in rather short supply as I'm currently revising a paper (we got accepted!!).

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted March 29, 2006 14:18      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by zesovietrussian:
Xanthine: Can't you convert you OGG files to MP3?

Not without degrading the quality.

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted March 31, 2006 08:08      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't see how it can be said that Apple is getting into a p!ssing match with France.

Is Apple currently breaking any laws? Are they unquestionably harming French citizens? Isn't France trying to change the legal framework to make what is currently legal illegal?

It seems to me that France is the one who is starting the match.

One other question... Where was France when MS was intentionally obtaining a monopoly?

Best,

Danimal

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"Corporate America (or place your country here)" is one of those weird religions that still believes in human sacrifice.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted March 31, 2006 08:17      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Do you live in France? Anywhere else in the EU? YTF are you so fscking worked up about this? Or are you one of the chief stock-holders for Apple?

The French do some things because they are forward thinking. They do other things out of some sort of weird nationalism. This is the country that passed a law about how many foreign words the media is allowed to use. If you're afraid their policy mihgt influence US policy, I urge you to take a look at the last five or six year of Franco-US relations. Now get off it. It's. Not. Worth. Worrying. About.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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Mac D
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Icon 1 posted March 31, 2006 09:26      Profile for Mac D     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
French = Cheese eating surender monkey

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There's nothing wrong with me, This is how I'm supposed to be.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted March 31, 2006 14:36      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Mac D = hugely witty and original

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted April 01, 2006 04:58      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
Do you live in France? Anywhere else in the EU? YTF are you so fscking worked up about this? Or are you one of the chief stock-holders for Apple?

The French do some things because they are forward thinking. They do other things out of some sort of weird nationalism. This is the country that passed a law about how many foreign words the media is allowed to use. If you're afraid their policy mihgt influence US policy, I urge you to take a look at the last five or six year of Franco-US relations. Now get off it. It's. Not. Worth. Worrying. About.

It seems that you are upset with me for conducting this dialogue and I do not understand why.

This. Is. Clearly. An. Apple. Topic. This. Is. Clearly. An. Apple. Oriented. Forum. What. France. Is. Doing. Affects. Apple. That's it! No worries. [Smile]

Best,

Danimal

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted April 01, 2006 17:38      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Canada == World's largest french population that hasn't surrendered to the British. [Wink]
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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted April 01, 2006 17:58      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Danimal, I don't think anyone is upset with you about raising the topic, but unlike some other forums, chivvying people to remain on topic in a thread does raise hackles somewhat here, as our threads tend take on a life of their own, like a good conversation in real life. In real life you would feel slightly annoyed if the person who started the conversation felt they had some ownership of it and the right to control where it went, and I guess that is the feeling here too. It might be disappointing for those who like a disciplined and indepth discussion, but I feel it makes the forums here more unpredictable and interesting.

By all means add something to the original discussion if you have some new thoughts or news you wish to share, but don't necessarily expect anyone else to be interested.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted April 03, 2006 08:26      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Call,

Thanks for your reply. I don't know the meaning of the word "chivvying." Sorry, please explain.

Also, do you not think that I have been contributing? My feeling is that being the root of good dialogue is just as important as being a trunk, a branch or a leaf. I feel that my topics and posts have done a lot to keep things moving forward and on topic.

As for "owning" it. Again, sorry. I don't think that I own it but I did not think that there was anything wrong with trying to keep it on topic either. My thinking is that either way is ok so long as no one throws a tantrum when things don't go their way. My attempts to lead the conversation back on topic have all been polite and without complaint when they failed, haven't they?

To use your analogy, three people are talking and one starts a topic. Two of the three get into a lonng discourse on a tangent. At one point the first guys says, "Hey, now what were we talking about?" And the other two would hopefully say, "Ahh, we were talking about Apple and France, were we done with that?" I guess I view my "steering" to be in the same polite context. [Smile]

Anyway, thanks again, for your reply. Don't forget to tell me what that word means. [Smile]

Best,

Dan

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted April 03, 2006 13:05      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by drunkennewfiemidget:
Canada == World's largest french population that hasn't surrendered to the British. [Wink]

Yep! And second used to be Louisiana, who got sold to the US. They are mostly assimilated by now, unfortunately. (À tous les Louisiannais qui parlent encore le français et qui se sentiraient offensés par mon commentaire  je suis désolée - ce n'est qu'une blague.)
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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted April 03, 2006 13:41      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by drunkennewfiemidget:
Canada == World's largest french population that hasn't surrendered to the British. [Wink]

Um, not wanting to pick a fight with the Quebecois here, but isn't there a whole long story about general Wolfe, the battle of Quebec, and 'New France' becoming a british territory?
How does this get spun to be not surrendering?

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted April 03, 2006 18:31      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by drunkennewfiemidget:
Canada == World's largest french population that hasn't surrendered to the British. [Wink]

Um, not wanting to pick a fight with the Quebecois here, but isn't there a whole long story about general Wolfe, the battle of Quebec, and 'New France' becoming a british territory?
How does this get spun to be not surrendering?

Easy: they didn't surrender at the Abraham's plain battle. They fought, and lost. But before the troops from Montreal could take the city back, France gave us in exchange for European territory they had lost (which is slightly better than being sold, I guess). Even after that, no one accepted to forswear the King of France and Catolicism, let alone give up our language. Later in our history, some were even foolish enough to try regain independance by force. Since then, we've learned better, and prefer the political way - with not so good results either, I must add... [Roll Eyes]

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Eppur, si muove!

Galileo Galilei

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