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Author Topic: Socialism Run Amok? Or Something Else?
Danimal
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Icon 1 posted March 13, 2006 11:38      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
LInky, linky.

quote:
France is pushing through a law that would force Apple Computer Inc to open its iTunes online music store and enable consumers to download songs onto devices other than the computer maker's popular iPod player. ...(article continues)
I have to say that when I see stuff like this happening it makes me sick. Government has no right to try to pull crap like this.

If the law passed I hope that Apple DOES close the France iTunes store. I wonder what laws France passed to make Windows OPEN.

Sorry for my rant. How do others feel about this? Is this socialism run amok or something else? To me it look like the former but that is just my opinion.

Best,

Dan

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Zwilnik

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Icon 1 posted March 13, 2006 13:14      Profile for Zwilnik   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It's not socialism, it's pretty obviously lobbying. In theory though the law would break the European Digital Copyright Act (by encouraging people to crack DRM) so it's entirely likely that Apple (and others) will just go to the European courts to either get the law thrown in the bin or sue the French government for damages.

That or they'll simply close the French iTunes store.

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted March 13, 2006 13:33      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Or claim that one can already download the music purchased on other players by writing it on CD before re-ripping it...

[crazy] Yeah I know. But it's still easier than removing IE from Windows... [Big Grin]

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted March 13, 2006 19:12      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It's not socialism, it's classic "Free Market" economics.

They're trying to remove an obstacle to the free market (i.e. the Apple-only DRM) which (I presume, I've read nothing about this) they would claim is Apple using their monopoly on their DRM to 'lock in' customers to the iPod.

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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2006 07:42      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
It's not socialism, it's classic "Free Market" economics.

They're trying to remove an obstacle to the free market (i.e. the Apple-only DRM) which (I presume, I've read nothing about this) they would claim is Apple using their monopoly on their DRM to 'lock in' customers to the iPod.

Do not free markete economics allow the creation of proprietary systems?

If so, then wouldn't a propietary system that was good enough to achieve a legal monopoly also then be free market economics?

Finally, while Apple has the largest portion of the digital music player market isn't it still way to soon to call it a monopoly?

Best,

Dan

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Flashfire
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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2006 08:28      Profile for Flashfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Danimal:
If so, then wouldn't a propietary system that was good enough to achieve a legal monopoly also then be free market economics?

Wow, were you a lawyer with Microsoft during their anti-trust suit? [Eek!]

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David Rogers
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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2006 10:16      Profile for David Rogers     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Actually Dananimal is correct. If consumers do not want to use Apple's products there are other MP3 devices and music download sites on the market for the consumers to turn to. If the consumers turn away from Apple because of this, that is the chance Apple has taken and other download sites and music device producers will take advantage of it. On the other hand, if more and more consumers buy Apple's music devices and download music from their site then they made a good business choice and benefitted from it.

The point is that a free market is an interaction between individual producers and consumers and that interference in those interactions by outside parties, like governments, leads to distortions in the free market. Whether this particular interference is an example of socialism or some other collectivist form of govenment market control I can't say, but it is government interference in the free market.

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Ugh, MightyClub
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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2006 11:09      Profile for Ugh, MightyClub     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
From what I read the law wouldn't just require Apple to open up FairPlay. It applies to all DRM schemes, including WiMPy. The idea is that you should be able to play your iTunes Store music on a Zen player and your Napster Store music on your iPod. Admirable, maybe, but the approach seems doomed to failure. I don't see Steve "My ego's bigger than yours" Jobs rolling over for the Frenchies [Big Grin]

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2006 13:31      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I also see this law as problematic, although I do sometimes get a bit annoyed with DRM preventing me from changing the format of music I buy online (outside of burning and ripping, as Stereo mentioned).

Out of curiosity, does anyone know of any music download sites that allow you to do what this French law would require, such as being able to convert file formats on downloaded music? All the ones I know of lock you into whatever they decide their format will be.

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csk

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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2006 17:47      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
Out of curiosity, does anyone know of any music download sites that allow you to do what this French law would require, such as being able to convert file formats on downloaded music? All the ones I know of lock you into whatever they decide their format will be.

Only one I know of is the infamous Russian one, that seems to have all of the mp3s i'm after [Wink]

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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted March 15, 2006 06:52      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Flashfire:
quote:
Originally posted by Danimal:
If so, then wouldn't a propietary system that was good enough to achieve a legal monopoly also then be free market economics?

Wow, were you a lawyer with Microsoft during their anti-trust suit? [Eek!]
Thanks for the question. I think it was a compliment. [Smile]

I have found that with internet communications it is better to ask questions than it is to tell someone what you know. I believe it makes the message go down sooner and helps the person reason it out for themselves. No one likes to be "told" anything so I use questions to accomplish the same goal in a non confrontational manner. [Smile]

If MS had LEGALLY gained their monopoly I would feel that they had as much right to it as any other company with a legal monopoly.

And I would still hate them. [Smile]

Best,

Danimal

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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted March 15, 2006 07:01      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I looked up socialism and found this...
quote:
any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

Maybe I am not using the right word but it seems close. When the government takss away the rights of a company by law it is, in effect, taking control fo the administration of the distribution of goods.

I am open to correction here if I am not using the proper term.

Best,

Danimal

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted March 15, 2006 07:27      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What's wrong with socialism??

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted March 15, 2006 10:08      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Danimal:
I looked up socialism and found this...
quote:
any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

Maybe I am not using the right word but it seems close. When the government takss away the rights of a company by law it is, in effect, taking control fo the administration of the distribution of goods.

So child labour laws and the abolition of slavery were 'socialist' ?
How about laws that prevent companies dumping oil in rivers?

Any government, left or right, makes laws that companies must obey, and the companies affected would claim their 'rights' are being taken away.

Competition laws aim to preserve the 'Free market' by preventing companies from abusing their market power to create or defend a monopoly. 'Fair' competition is ok, 'unfair' competition is not.

'Fair' competition would be Ford increasing their market share by building a better car.
'Unfair' competition would be Ford doing a deal with the operator of a major tollway to only let Ford vehicles use the road.

It's all about preserving the customers right to choose.

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Chesty
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Icon 1 posted March 15, 2006 13:42      Profile for Chesty         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ashitaka:
What's wrong with socialism??

Well, basically everything.

Маркс был bum и загубленные много нация с его "я съем и не работать" сочинительства

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted March 15, 2006 22:35      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Chesty:
quote:
Originally posted by Ashitaka:
What's wrong with socialism??

Well, basically everything.
Well, everything except the child labour laws and abolishing slavery...

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted March 17, 2006 12:36      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Chesty:
quote:
Originally posted by Ashitaka:
What's wrong with socialism??

Well, basically everything.

Маркс был bum и загубленные много нация с его "я съем и не работать" сочинительства

I don't think Marx had it all right either, but he had some things right. Would you just get rid of the US's social security progam, and if you would ask an elder you care about if they would too. socialism isn't about being a "red" but about taking responsibility for living in a society.

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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted March 18, 2006 20:15      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I did not think that I was presenting a viewpoint about socialism other than asking if it was "running amok."

Best,

Danimal

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Chesty
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Icon 1 posted March 18, 2006 21:10      Profile for Chesty         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Socialists did not end Slavery - It was a Republican!

The main thing wrong with Socialism is that socialists do not have a realistic view of human nature.

This is the fundamental flaw of Marxism - Orwell explained decades ago and yet there are some too thickheaded to understand this.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted March 18, 2006 22:37      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Chesty:
Socialists did not end Slavery - It was a Republican!

I was applying Danimals "anyone who stops business doing whatever it likes is a socialist" definition [Wink]

By that definition, every political party in history (even the Libertarians) is socialist.

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted March 19, 2006 01:27      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Chesty:
Socialists did not end Slavery - It was a Republican!

The main thing wrong with Socialism is that socialists do not have a realistic view of human nature.

This is the fundamental flaw of Marxism - Orwell explained decades ago and yet there are some too thickheaded to understand this.

Chesty, You didn't respond to my inquiry of if you think that social security should be gotten rid of for being "socialist".

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Icon 2 posted March 19, 2006 06:46      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm always amazed at how often people will argue over the labels applied to things rather than the things themselves.
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Chesty
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Icon 1 posted March 19, 2006 10:04      Profile for Chesty         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have personal retirement accounts, property and insurance and will take care of myself. I will recieve Social Security because I paid into it, but if I pinned all my hopes of blissfull retirement on the government I would be a fool.

First of all let's point out that Social Security is not really Socialism. It is a pension program with forced entry. Everyone does not recieve the same benefits. You (or your parent)must pay into the system to recive from it. Social security is not the same as welfare.

I think "Social insecurity" never should have been started. FDR sold people a bag of crack. It makes everybody feel good but does little. When there were hard times in America, Roosevelt told everyone that he would take care of them no matter what. People today say that his actions ended the depression. That is completely untrue.

World War II ended the depression. A republican ended slavery. A democrat gave the blacks the vote because he said if he did "the democrats will have every nigger vote for forty years".

Sometimes the people you think are helping you are really just using you. Sometimes the people that are harsh to are your best friend. Sometimes the socialist Frogs pass laws that are unfair. Because they are socialists does that mean it is socialism?

France is so irrelvant in the global picture that it will mean little to Apple. Sure, it'd be great to have the market, but what the heck.

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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted March 19, 2006 10:49      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
I was applying Danimals "anyone who stops business doing whatever it likes is a socialist" definition [Wink]

By that definition, every political party in history (even the Libertarians) is socialist.

Hi,

I think what I said was, "When the government takss away the rights of a company by law it is, in effect, taking control fo the administration of the distribution of goods."

In this case, it seems that no laws have been broken and I find it hard to see how any consumer has been harmed. Apple (and other companies) have gone into the country of France not having broken any laws nor having harmed any of its citizens.

It would appear that they are trying to change the very ground under which this business is being done.

To me, that is not good. I don't think it really matters what it is called but it seems like it fits inside of the definition of Socialism so that is the term I used. Again, I'll humbly accept a more accurate definition.

Best,

Dan

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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted March 19, 2006 10:55      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Chesty:
A democrat gave the blacks the vote because he said if he did "the democrats will have every nigger vote for forty years".

Chesty,

If this is, in fact, true I would really like to have an authoratative reference on it. It interests me. Would you be willing to PM that to me?

I'm not trying to open up a debate or challenge you. It seems like learning more about that quote, who said it, and finding out the back story on it would be a very interesting political study subject.

Best,

Danimal

PS: Please don't post that here. I think it would start a maelstrom.

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