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Author Topic: Intelligent Design
spungo
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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 05:15      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Good ol' Kansas, huh? I'm glad they've decided to take it upon themselves to revise the scope of science in general - I always thought there were far too many diagrams anyway. [Wink]

Found this map of the US on /.

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Shameless plug. (Please forgive me.)

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 06:23      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I suppose this is the story your thread title refers to.

<Flamebait>I sincerely hope that the evil of religious fundamentalism does not infect politics here in Europe, the way it has in more backward countries.</Flamebait> [Wink]

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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GMx

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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 07:43      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Now this will make it easier for anyone to advance a "scientific" theory. No proof needed, all you have to do is say, "Because I said so!"
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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 09:58      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My favorite part is that they redefined science so that it is no longer limited to the search for natural explanations of phenomena. This means unnatural explanations are acceptable and Alex Chiu and Gene Ray can finally be recognized for being the innovative scientists that they really are.

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maia
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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 10:06      Profile for maia     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I like this line from the Time Cube site: "Acknowledge the math below or go to hell." I guess I'm going to hell, because I didn't even read any further, let alone acknowledge anything.

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 10:38      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I hail the flying spaghetti monster in all his noodly glory.

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Stibbons
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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 10:42      Profile for Stibbons   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm currently in email communication with Gene Ray, trying to convince him that -1 x -1 does in fact = 1 from first principles. It doesn't seem to be working so far [ohwell]
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quantumfluff
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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 10:47      Profile for quantumfluff     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
On the good side, I read in the paper today that the city of Dover, Pennsylvania just tossed out it's entire 8 person board that was pushing creationism and replaced them with more sensible bunch.
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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 12:31      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Slight correction: The incumbents had approved a statement regarding intelligent design, not creationism. From what I understand, it wasn't even an entire lesson, but just a sentence or two saying that intelligent design is a theory of origins just like evolution is a theory of origins.

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 12:48      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Intelligent design is a thinly veiled guise for creationism. It has no place in public schools.

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 12:54      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
just a sentence or two saying that intelligent design is a theory of origins just like evolution is a theory of origins.

Intelligent Design is a theory of origins, but it's not a Scientific theory, so it has no place in a Science curriculum.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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alfrin
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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 13:32      Profile for alfrin     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
just a sentence or two saying that intelligent design is a theory of origins just like evolution is a theory of origins.

Intelligent Design is a theory of origins, but it's not a Scientific theory, so it has no place in a Science curriculum.
Bingo. evolution is a "scientific" theory of origins, thus it should be kept in a "science" environment. Do they see us going into churches demanding they teach evolution? I think not. Until there is scientific proof of ID (which might never happen considering it is not of that nature) it should remain OUTSIDE a science classroom.

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 14:36      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Question, though. Have we scientific proof for evolution? I mean, do we have a picture of the "Big Bang"? Testimony from someone whose aunt was transitional between ape and human? Sure, micro-evolution happens and happens all the time, but macro-evolution to the point that where once 'twas nothing exploded and we were the result? What made that nothing explode? How did those few cells know to evolve into such complex things as giraffes and limestone (which are nothing like each other, but apparently came from the same ancestor)?

Give me solid answers for these questions and I'll gladly give up my belief in intelligent design.

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Change the way you SEE, not the way you LOOK!

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alfrin
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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 14:52      Profile for alfrin     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The truth is, when it comes to science, we know nothing of fact, almost everything is nothing more than a theory. A lot of the things we can't prove now, or ever, unless we create some sort of time machine. Same in math, so many proporties are theories, pythagorean theorm for example. It has "always" worked for us, but it will never be a law because it hasn't been tested for "every" number. Mostly because that's impossible because there are infinite numbers (theoretically speaking of course [Wink] )

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Art is Resistance / Resistance is Art

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TMBWITW,PB

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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 15:24      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by alfrin:
A lot of the things we can't prove now, or ever, unless we create some sort of time machine.

And in science, it doesn't really matter. When you're developing a scientific theory you aren't concerned so much that it is right, as you are concerned that it be useful and repeatable. As soon as one of those goes away the theory changes.

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 15:39      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Here's how I explain my stance regarding evolution to other Christians:

<sermon>
It doesn't matter. Whether a Christian believes in evolution or creationism does not have much bearing on anything else. We don't debate if the parables of The Prodigal Son or The Good Samaritan were about real people, because it wouldn't make any difference there, either. Worrying about evolution is a waste of energy better spent elsewhere.
</sermon>

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 15:44      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Uh oh...I give up:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0055/0055_01.asp
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/5001/5001_01.asp

(Courtesy of some /.er yesterday, and Firefox's history)

But wait, there's more!

quote:
THE Vatican has issued a stout defence of Charles Darwin, voicing strong criticism of Christian fundamentalists who reject his theory of evolution and interpret the biblical account of creation literally.

Cardinal Paul Poupard, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture, said the Genesis description of how God created the universe and Darwin's theory of evolution were "perfectly compatible" if the Bible were read correctly.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,17162341-13762,00.html

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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TMBWITW,PB

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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 15:46      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I explain my stance to other Christians with my previous argument (science doesn't try to be right it tries to be useful) and by saying that evolutionary theory doesn't say that God had nothing to do with it. It doesn't say anything about God. It is just as valid to say that God directed the natural processes as it is to say they were random. Science looks for "what" and "how" not "why".

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"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it may be necessary from time to time to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye."
—Miss Piggy

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nerdwithnofriends
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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 15:49      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
Uh oh...I give up:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0055/0055_01.asp
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/5001/5001_01.asp

(Courtesy of some /.er yesterday, and Firefox's history)

But wait, there's more!

quote:
THE Vatican has issued a stout defence of Charles Darwin, voicing strong criticism of Christian fundamentalists who reject his theory of evolution and interpret the biblical account of creation literally.

Cardinal Paul Poupard, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture, said the Genesis description of how God created the universe and Darwin's theory of evolution were "perfectly compatible" if the Bible were read correctly.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,17162341-13762,00.html
This is why I enjoy being a Roman Catholic, but resent being asssociated with the 'religious right'. Catholic dogma states that the Bible was not meant to be interpreted literally; apparently, the 'religoius right' seems to think otherwise.

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"The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of a digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top of a mountain or in the petals of a flower." - Robert M. Pirsig

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magefile
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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 16:17      Profile for magefile     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
Question, though. Have we scientific proof for evolution? I mean, do we have a picture of the "Big Bang"? Testimony from someone whose aunt was transitional between ape and human? Sure, micro-evolution happens and happens all the time, but macro-evolution to the point that where once 'twas nothing exploded and we were the result?

No. However ... Occam's razor applies. Why would God (who supposedly has shown himself to us in the form of Christ and others) suddenly turn around and say, "I'm gonna put these fossils here, and make the speed of light variable, and a bunch of other weird stuff to make these guys doubt that I exist"? It makes more sense to believe that we can trust the evidence we have (in the form of fossils, DNA, etc).

No reason you need to give up believing in ID, though - assuming we do have a divine watchmaker, I think evolution is a pretty damn smart way of getting things to work.

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supergoo

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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 17:43      Profile for supergoo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My stance on this issue:

Here are the facts, believe what you want to.

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Y los sueños, sueños son.

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ewomack
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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 17:45      Profile for ewomack   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think the word "truth" gets misused a lot. No person on this earth has ever known the largest sense of the word "truth" yet so many throw it around like yesterday's laundry. I hear Christians talk about "truth" when they should be talking about "belief" and I hear scientists saying "truth" when they should be saying "theory". I think we'd all be a lot better off if all of us accepted the notion that we don't have a single clue of what this thing is all about. It's really the one thing that unifies us, every one of us: we don't have a clue. We only have beliefs and theories (and some are better or more useful than others [Big Grin] ). We just need to realize that we're all in this thing together.

Science has never been out to prove or disprove a supreme being. Our current science remains pretty neutral on whether one exists or could exist. No matter what scientific theory comes along, a creationist could always say "well, God meant it that way." And there's nothing inherent in current science that could definitively disprove that claim. A scientist could retort that no proof of a supreme being currently exists, and the creationist really can't respond to that without reference to "belief", as in "well, I believe that there is one". Well, where do you go from there? Apparently straight to the land of wiggly dogmas. And that's one thing that humans definitely have an unquenchable talent for.

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HalfVast

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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 18:37      Profile for HalfVast     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Anybody ever looked at a platypus? Intelligent design my foot...

I think the biggest issue is the general public's misunderstanding
of the meanings of the words theory, hypothesis and wild-ass-guess.

As for the existence of God I've found that things which can neither
be proved nor disproved have little to no effect on my day to day life.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 19:00      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
Question, though. Have we scientific proof for evolution?
Yes.
We have a wealth of proof of evolution in the fossil record.

I mean, do we have a picture of the "Big Bang"?
No, but then you wouldn't expect to, there were no people around then, so any photograph would have to be fake.

Testimony from someone whose aunt was transitional between ape and human?
Again, no. But then you wouldn't expect to, as evolution doesn't happen on that time scale.
We do have a quite good fossil record of our ancestry going back some millions of years though.

Sure, micro-evolution happens and happens all the time, but macro-evolution to the point that where once 'twas nothing exploded and we were the result? What made that nothing explode?
Again, you're talking about the cosmology here, the 'big bang' has nothing to do with evolution.

As for the micro-evolution/macro-evolution thing, if you can see small changes in few hundred generations (and there are well documented examples) then why do you find it hard to believe that you can get bigger changes over a few thousand generations, and huge changes over millions of generations?

How did those few cells know to evolve into such complex things as giraffes and limestone (which are nothing like each other, but apparently came from the same ancestor)?

They didn't 'know' any such thing, and the fact that you ask the question indicates that you don't really know what evolution theory is.

You're not alone there, most of the people I've encountered who argue against evolution are not really arguing against evolution at all, they're arguing against some strange parody of evolution theory that the creationists have spread around. If evolution really was about some monkey climbing out of a tree and giving birth to a human (as implied by your 'aunt' question above) or relied on intricately complex organisms happening 'by accident' then I'd be as critical of it as you are.

quote:
Originally posted by HalfVast:
Anybody ever looked at a platypus? Intelligent design my foot...

Maybe He was stoned that day [Wink]

Some years ago, I was taking Spanish classes in Ecuador. For conversation practice, my teacher was asking me questions about where I'm from, what are the houses like, the animals, etc.
Try explaining a platypus in bad Spanish to someone who's never seen one.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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The White Tree
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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 19:14      Profile for The White Tree     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/11/09/evolution.showdown.ap/index.html

Oh what now Dover! Take that you bunch of back water inbreds. This is local news for me by the way. My dad used to be friends with the one guy on the school board until he fired my dad because he was too costly to keep around. What a fscking prick.

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