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Author Topic: I'm playing with fire here...
ChildeRoland
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Icon 1 posted August 21, 2005 18:22      Profile for ChildeRoland     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:


The death count for American forces in well into the 18,000s.

Gee, that's funny. Several anti-war sites, as well as the DoD's website, list the number of deaths as under 1,900 (1861 as of Friday at 10AM EDT, and less than 1500 of those being in-combat).

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fs

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Icon 1 posted August 21, 2005 18:41      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ChildeRoland:
quote:


The death count for American forces in well into the 18,000s.

Gee, that's funny. Several anti-war sites, as well as the DoD's website, list the number of deaths as under 1,900 (1861 as of Friday at 10AM EDT, and less than 1500 of those being in-combat).
I'm guessing that was a typo on Jace's part, as it was being reported as in the 1800s when he posted.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted August 21, 2005 18:46      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ChildeRoland:
quote:
The death count for American forces in well into the 18,000s.
Gee, that's funny. Several anti-war sites, as well as the DoD's website, list the number of deaths as under 1,900 (1861 as of Friday at 10AM EDT, and less than 1500 of those being in-combat).
Of course, those are military deaths.
The unusual thing about the current war compared to other recent wars is the large number of civilian contractors doing things the military used to do, like driving trucks, cooking meals, guarding buildings, or torturing (sorry, 'stressfully interrogating') prisoners.
When they get killed, they're not included in the official count.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted August 22, 2005 04:40      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Only marginally related to this topic, but here is the command line war on terror. [Cool]

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sumnchai
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Icon 1 posted August 22, 2005 06:35      Profile for sumnchai     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Wow. And generating anger is the best way to evoke change.

[shake head]

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Jace Raven

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Icon 1 posted August 22, 2005 08:13      Profile for Jace Raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Evoke enough anger in me and you'll likely to feel a major difference in how well you breath.
</sick joke>


In all seriousness the 1800's death count is American Military Combantant deaths.

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sumnchai
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Icon 1 posted August 22, 2005 10:15      Profile for sumnchai     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Jace, are you handing out throat-punches again?

In all seriousness though - comparing death counts is useless. The automobile, since its invention, has accounted for more deaths than all American wars combined. No one (with any sanity) is demanding that we ban the car. It's all a matter of desirable impact. Cars, no matter how many people they kill, produce a desirable impact on society (for the most part) outweighing the cost in lives. If it can be shown that the war in Iraq is doing the same (and I believe it can) then we must accept the losses as acceptable.

By all means, try to reduce them through better armor, less-than-lethal methods, or negotiations - in the same way cars have been improved through the years via seatbelts, airbags, and roll-cages - but don't demand the immediate cessation of hostilities towards those who would harm the Iraqi people.

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Jace Raven

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Icon 1 posted August 22, 2005 12:17      Profile for Jace Raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I feel a moto speech coming out but I'll spare you and say:

No loss is acceptable.

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Serenak

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Icon 1 posted August 22, 2005 12:37      Profile for Serenak     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No loss is "acceptable" but some loss is "operationally inevitable" and has to be tolerated.

Knowing when and where to draw the line between tolerable and "no longer sustainable" is what makes the difference between great and average commanders (and often lauded and reviled politicians).

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alfrin
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Icon 1 posted August 22, 2005 12:54      Profile for alfrin     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by sumnchai:
Wow. And generating anger is the best way to evoke change.

[shake head]

Well that's simply how human society as worked, for example, Grand Theft Auto (I'm not trying to start a flame war over it). Honesly do you honestly think the ESRB would have ever changed it's rating if there hadn't been such an angry uproar? It's vindicitive of how we as human's don't know how to ask nicely for something to be changed.

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Art is Resistance / Resistance is Art

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fs

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Icon 1 posted August 22, 2005 13:28      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by alfrin:
It's vindicitive of how we as human's don't know how to ask nicely for something to be changed.

I'm not sure that vindictive is the right word, but that is irrelevant. It's also a pity that we humans tend to ignore calm, polite, reasonable requests for change.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted August 22, 2005 13:53      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My personal experience, and this is especially true when dealing with most (but not all) men, is I really have to go over the top when trying to get anything across. I've tried the polite and reasonable request route with my boyfriend, parents, coworkers, and my brother. Please bear in mind I only request a change when I have a really strong feeling about the situation - it's not like a cry wolf. That said, politeness rarely gets me anywhere. They just blow it off until I get really upset, and even then I have to throw in some acting because, without assistance, my stack doesn't blow high enough to register on the meter. I'm saying this because, guess what, this country is run by men. Power-hungry, arrogant men. Not exactly the type to honor a polite request (without a lot of dollar signs behind it that is :/).
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Icon 1 posted August 22, 2005 14:42      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I believe displaying anger is acceptable, when kept within limits, and tempered with some rationality. Unfortunately, many times anger falls into hate, and sometimes outright bigotry.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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alfrin
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Icon 1 posted August 22, 2005 16:13      Profile for alfrin     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
I believe displaying anger is acceptable, when kept within limits, and tempered with some rationality. Unfortunately, many times anger falls into hate, and sometimes outright bigotry.

Sometimes anger is hard to be kept in limits, anger is essentially emotional fire, if you throw a little to much gas on there is no telling how big it will grow and how far it will spread

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted August 22, 2005 19:41      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sxepto and alfrin you sound as though you are in a Star Wars movie!

sumnchai you simply cannot compare warfare with car driving. Car driving is not an enterprise prosecuted by sending other people to kill or be killed. But leaving that not inconsiderable moral dimension aside, even if I accept your crude cost benefit metric, it is hard to see how you can measure the beneficial effect of a war. All wars big or small tend to have profound social and political consequences both domestically and abroad, that just cannot be foreseen, and sometimes only manifest themselves some years after the war ends. The desirable outcomes posited by the neocons (e.g. the potential spread of democracy and political stability in the Middle East), have few if any actual parallels in history, and so should be considered theoretical at best.

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TMBWITW,PB

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Icon 1 posted August 22, 2005 20:23      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
Sxepto and alfrin you sound as though you are in a Star Wars movie!

Glad I'm not the only one who thought they were channeling Yoda. [Razz]

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ASM65816
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Icon 4 posted August 22, 2005 21:03      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jace Raven:
No loss is acceptable.

WHOA!!! Jace, you picked the wrong line of work if you're not willing to accept losses.

Chess isn't a brutal activity, but even if you win you're still going to take losses.

If a rogue tells you "give me your money or I'll cause you bodily harm," you'll probably lose something -- money or blood.

quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
It is hard to see how you can measure the beneficial effect of a war.

Lose, lose -- take your choice.

a) Allow someone like Saddam to torture and kill a few people every day until the end of his regime. However, you can bet that his sons would have been more brutal than him, and they would have succeeded him, perpetuating the suffering for another generation. (On the bright side, 20% of the population liked Saddam.)
      -- or --
b) Lose your own people to save others.

If somebody thinks Saddam was on the verge of becoming a kind and generous ruler without being forced to do so, please tell me so.

If you think maintaining "peace" in one's country is worth the means used by Saddam, let me know.

Please don't tell me that you're dedicated to ending the human suffering of others when you're not willing to make any sacrifice of your own.

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted August 22, 2005 23:10      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TMBWITW,PB:
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
Sxepto and alfrin you sound as though you are in a Star Wars movie!

Glad I'm not the only one who thought they were channeling Yoda. [Razz]
I was shooting for just being a bit thoughtful, but I guess I missed the mark there somewhere. Not that I mind sounding like Yoda, I just don't think I have enough years on me to pull it off yet. [Wink]
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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted August 23, 2005 01:30      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
Lose, lose -- take your choice.

a) Allow someone like Saddam to torture and kill a few people every day until the end of his regime. However, you can bet that his sons would have been more brutal than him, and they would have succeeded him, perpetuating the suffering for another generation. (On the bright side, 20% of the population liked Saddam.)
      -- or --
b) Lose your own people to save others.

My point ASM is that choice b only makes sense if you actually are saving others, and that there is a good chance it is going to produce a situation better than choice a. There is little evidence so far that it is, or will in the future. Governments installed by an occupying power have a poor survival record when that power leaves. Democracies do not always thrive. Many tyrants have come to power initially by democratic means. It is also hard to make democracy work in a country with deep ethnic, tribal, or sectarian divides and Iraq boasts all three. You may have noticed that in the UK we are having some trouble making democracy work in Northern Ireland, and I suppose we have had a few years practice at it, yet you think you can make it work on the other side of the world with a country culture and people you have absolutely no understanding of. Finally to top all this off there are the unpredictable consequences that I mentioned in my previous post. For example the Iraq war has thrown your relations with the rest of the world into complete turmoil and generated more hatred of the US than I would have believed possible. How all this will pan out is impossible to predict, but the repercussions of this event will play out for many years to come.

So good luck. You'll need it.

P.S. Let's not drag this discussion out. We all know where we stand, and there is no chance either of us will change our positions.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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Jace Raven

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Icon 1 posted August 23, 2005 07:20      Profile for Jace Raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
WHOA!!! Jace, you picked the wrong line of work if you're not willing to accept losses.

Chess isn't a brutal activity, but even if you win you're still going to take losses.

If a rogue tells you "give me your money or I'll cause you bodily harm," you'll probably lose something -- money or blood.

No loss is acceptable, though inevitable, nonetheless unacceptable.


quote:

Lose, lose -- take your choice.

a) Allow someone like Saddam to torture and kill a few people every day until the end of his regime. However, you can bet that his sons would have been more brutal than him, and they would have succeeded him, perpetuating the suffering for another generation. (On the bright side, 20% of the population liked Saddam.)
      -- or --
b) Lose your own people to save others.

Would you give your life to save your son? How about your neighbor?

We fight with out brothers (in arms but brothers just as well). We justify the ideas of loosing our life in combat as fighting with and for those to your left and right, your brothers.

Would you consider it a loss to give your life so your brother may keep his?

I can't

quote:

Please don't tell me that you're dedicated to ending the human suffering of others when you're not willing to make any sacrifice of your own.

quote:
Governments installed by an occupying power have a poor survival record when that power leaves. Democracies do not always thrive.
This is why we have plans to occupy till at least 2009
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Chesty
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Icon 1 posted August 23, 2005 10:02      Profile for Chesty         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Governments installed by an occupying power became two of the most democratic nations (and successful trade countries) on the planet.

Would you have had us not re-establish Germany and Japan?

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alfrin
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Icon 1 posted August 23, 2005 10:42      Profile for alfrin     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
Sxepto and alfrin you sound as though you are in a Star Wars movie!

sumnchai you simply cannot compare warfare with car driving. Car driving is not an enterprise prosecuted by sending other people to kill or be killed. But leaving that not inconsiderable moral dimension aside, even if I accept your crude cost benefit metric, it is hard to see how you can measure the beneficial effect of a war. All wars big or small tend to have profound social and political consequences both domestically and abroad, that just cannot be foreseen, and sometimes only manifest themselves some years after the war ends. The desirable outcomes posited by the neocons (e.g. the potential spread of democracy and political stability in the Middle East), have few if any actual parallels in history, and so should be considered theoretical at best.

And let's not forget the soldiers who are lost once they are sent back, not dead, but emotionaly scarred, I've been to those Veteran's homes, some of them being there since Vietnam. It's rather scary, they would flash back thinking they are in battle. Completely unable to function in society. Very sad, but shows that we never really think of the people who survive, it's all about dies. They don't realize that the war has a toll on those who survive. We've had so many wars in our histories that the fighting seems trivial compared to the actually resulting deaths. </rant>

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Art is Resistance / Resistance is Art

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted August 23, 2005 10:46      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You have to wonder how things would be if we had elected this one a few years back. [Roll Eyes]

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I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted August 23, 2005 10:58      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by garlicguy:
You have to wonder how things would be if we had elected this one a few years back. [Roll Eyes]

IMO, even most Christians can't stand that guy. I never could understand why anyone would want to listen to him or the others like him.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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alfrin
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Icon 1 posted August 23, 2005 11:01      Profile for alfrin     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by garlicguy:
You have to wonder how things would be if we had elected this one a few years back. [Roll Eyes]

Well we could say things wouldn't be looking so good for Chavez right now...

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Art is Resistance / Resistance is Art

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