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Author Topic: I'm playing with fire here...
Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted August 18, 2005 12:02      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I've been thinking a bit about Cindy Sheehan, the woman who is camped near Bush's ranch demanding to meet with him. I'm not really trying to bring up the Iraq War debate again, as that subject has really been beaten to death in just the few months I've been on these forums.

I'm just trying to decide if it's reasonable for a person to essentially demand to meet with the leader of the country, in the method that Sheehan is using. On one hand, he is an elected official, and should be at least somewhat responsive to the citizens. On the other, I have to wonder what would really be accomplished if he were to meet with her, as it seems unlikely she is going to change his mind, and I doubt it would be possible for him to say anything to satisfy her regarding her son's death.

So, I'm hoping to see if anyone has some interesting thoughts on this, but generally avoiding unnecessary comments on the war and Bush himself.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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nerdwithnofriends
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Icon 1 posted August 18, 2005 12:57      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think it's an attention-grabber. Not so much for the whole nation to see her, but for a world leader to feel her pain. That's all; she just wants attention.

Of course, I sympathize with her on being angry about her sons death, but Military service at this point is voluntary, soooo... yeah.

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"The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of a digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top of a mountain or in the petals of a flower." - Robert M. Pirsig

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skylar
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Icon 1 posted August 18, 2005 13:06      Profile for skylar     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't think she's an attention grabber. How cynical would it be to exploit her son's death in such a way? I found this article on the subject, which I thought was very interesting. I'm sorry, it does make a number of comments about Bush and the Iraq war in general, but I think that, considering the subject matter, that really can't be helped.
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Erbo
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Icon 2 posted August 18, 2005 13:20            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Have I got comments on Sheehan? I could go on and on...

The woman is a moonbat attention whore of the worst stripe, who is being enabled in her temper tantrums by the usual gang of far-left organizations and individuals, and also by the mainstream media, who'll never turn down a good Bush-bashing story. Her son is probably spinning so hard in his grave that the Earth is developing a wobble in its orbit. Members of the military are almost universally appalled by her behavior, as are their families. Meanwhile, our enemies are rejoicing at the appearance of this latest "useful fool."

I saw the reports of all the candlelight vigils held yesterday, and all that came to mind were the words of Col. Nathan Jessep from A Few Good Men: "You friggin' people. You have no idea how to defend a nation. All you did was weaken a country today. That's all you did. You put people's lives in danger. Sweet dreams, son."

Best thing to do with her would be to ignore her. For Bush to meet with her would accomplish precisely nothing good, and would only encourage other attention whores to come out of the woodwork.

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Jace Raven

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Icon 1 posted August 18, 2005 14:24      Profile for Jace Raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The President isn't just a person. The president is an institution. You must protect that institution at all costs. Especially from attention craving whores!
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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted August 18, 2005 14:40      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't know, Erbo... In this day-and-age of corporations lining the pockets of government, it takes some radical action to gain the attention of those in office. Sheehan's in her right to do what she's doing... Government for the people, by the people, and all that. As a citizen, she has the right to be heard... just like all the rest of us have that right. The only difference between Sheehan and us is that she's gotten off her butt and is doing something about it.

Just because her son joined the military doesn't mean that his mother needs to agree with his decision 100%. He was an adult when he made that choice. How many of you as adults have made choices with which your parents haven't agreed? Even though you are their child, they still have the right to protest. None of choices have resulted in such significant consequences as death, but if your parents strongly believed in (or against) a cause and you were harmed participating in that, your parents would have a stronger case against/for that cause. (Ref. Mother's Against Drunk Driving (MADD), PTOs, etc.) Sheehan's just being more vocal than any of us have ever been.

---------------------------------------------


(For the record, I am a registered Republican who abhores war and the carnage caused by it. There are much more civil ways of dealing with conflict than slaughtering people. I am also a registered member of MoveOn.org, but only as far as it crusades against the occupation in Iraq. I don't support any of the organization's other left-wing policies/politics.)

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Matias
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Icon 1 posted August 18, 2005 15:09      Profile for Matias   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Cindy Sheehan is not a hero. Her siege on Crawford is interesting but by no means the victory some are claiming.

Why? Because such efforts are ultimately fruitless. Opposition to Bush's private little war hardly needs more evidence or motivation, and the president's supporters aren't likely to be swayed by a group of protesters or photo collages of dead soldiers. Those working towards a summit between Sheehan and Bush are wasting their time and patience, for that meeting will never take place.

She is an American citizen and has the right to do so. I can see her point as a grieving mother because that has to be one of the worst pains a mother can bear; but in the end, he will not listen and he will go on with his day as normal.

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Erbo
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Icon 1 posted August 18, 2005 15:27            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If she were just trying to get attention by sitting outside Bush's ranch and calmly stating why she was doing so, that's one thing. But this woman has been throwing a full-blown temper tantrum. Here are some things she said earlier this year during a rally at San Francisco State University:
quote:
We are not waging a war on terror in this country. We’re waging a war of terror. The biggest terrorist in the world is George W. Bush!

We are waging a nuclear war in Iraq right now. That country is contaminated. It will be contaminated for practically eternity now...

If George Bush believes his rhetoric and his bullshit, that this is a war for freedom and democracy, that he is spreading freedom and democracy, does he think every person he kills makes Iraq more free?

The whole world is damaged. Our humanity is damaged. If he thinks that it’s so important for Iraq to have a U.S.-imposed sense of freedom and democracy, then he needs to sign up his two little party-animal girls. They need to go to this war...

We want our country back and, if we have to impeach everybody from George Bush down to the person who picks up dog shit in Washington, we will impeach all those people.

Does this sound like reasoned debate to you???? To me, it sounds like the most vitriolic rhetoric you'd find posted on DU, Indymedia, or the other hate-America, hate-Bush Web sites out there.

Jace, I'm surprised at you in particular. This woman's son was a Marine. By her actions, she is dishonoring everything her son--your fellow Marine--was fighting for. And you're taking her side?

At this point, I can predict the outcome of any meeting between Sheehan and Bush: Sheehan will scream and cry no matter what Bush says, she'll come out of it with even worse rhetoric than she was spewing before, and the MSM will be reporting "Bush caves in." Now, if I can figure out what the outcome will be, surely Bush can, too. That's why the meeting will never take place; he wouldn't want to squander his political capital and hand his political enemies more things with which to beat him over the head.

Yes, she has a right to do what she's doing. I, in turn, have a right to name her as she is: a crybaby attention whore who is acting as a tool of the moonbat left, and who doesn't deserve even a hundredth of the attention she's getting. And now, I'm going to shut up about this, because I've already given her more attention than she deserves.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted August 18, 2005 17:39      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Cindy Sheehan___________Is a member of a very exclusive club, the Gold Star Mothers, You must be a mother of a KIA member of the armed services. That said I as a former paramedic in the Navy (remember that we take the Marines to where ever they go and the Medical Corpsmans support the field Marines) feel that she can say what ever she wants she has earned the right, her son has died in support of her freedom. As far as being an attention Whore, You see it as you do I don't.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted August 18, 2005 17:58      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
If she were just trying to get attention by sitting outside Bush's ranch and calmly stating why she was doing so...

...Does this sound like reasoned debate to you???? To me, it sounds like the most vitriolic rhetoric you'd find posted on DU, Indymedia, or the other hate-America, hate-Bush Web sites out there...

... I, in turn, have a right to name her as she is: a crybaby attention whore...

A mother whos son has died in a war (that was based on a pack of lies) has got all emotional.

Colour me surprised.

Oh, and while we're on the subject of calm, reasoned debate, you might like to consider how 'calm' and 'reasoned' you're being in describing anyone who disagrees with you as an 'America-hater', and the grieving mother of a fallen soldier as a 'crybaby attention-whore'.

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ASM65816
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Icon 2 posted August 18, 2005 18:08      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Now, now, now. Let's not beat this horse anymore; I don't think you really want to hear my opinion. [Roll Eyes]

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted August 18, 2005 21:14      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
Now, now, now. Let's not beat this horse anymore; I don't think you really want to hear my opinion. [Roll Eyes]

You sir, are absolutely right. I might have said a small piece about one of Erbo's quotes, but in the interest of politeness, I will drop it.

/me extends hand in peace first to ASM, then to Erbo.

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted August 18, 2005 23:10      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well, anytime someone gets that demanding (and is covered so heavily in the news), it's obviously going to annoy some people.

I generally try to avoid thinking too much about a person's motives. I just have read about her in the news, which is a pretty limited picture. I've just been thinking about the situation generically.

I was thinking about it more, and I imagine one major problem with acquiescing to her demands and meeting with her is it sets a bad precedent. As controversial as Bush is, there would probably be more people who would decide to follow Sheehan's lead. Having a bunch of people who don't like you camped nearby would get on just about anyone's nerves. Better to avoid giving people ideas.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted August 19, 2005 05:10      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If any one has the right to protest this armed sction I would believe it to be A GOLD STAR MOTHER, thier price of admission to that select group is pretty high.

I remember going to my first rescue, a transport plane crash. Twenty four souls on board, six dead right there six that did not make the ambulance trip and six more that did not make it through surgury almost all burned beyond recognition, I was too busy to get sick at the scene that came later as I hurled supper and I believe lunch.
Many people think that war is grand and what heros our men and women are, war is one step from hell, it has taken me Thirty Eight years to be able to talk about what I see as down right stupidity on the parts of our leaders. One of my coworkers brought in his scrapebook from his Tour of Duty. I asked him what happened to that inocent looking kid near the front of the book, his reply "he got lost somewhere and I could not find him".

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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sumnchai
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Icon 1 posted August 19, 2005 05:42      Profile for sumnchai     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Though I personally disagree with her sentiments, and do believe she is using her son's death, I don't believe she should be villianized too badly. After all - what makes this country work is that we have the Sheehans. Her right to protest, her right to sit up and say "I don't believe in this" and ask questions is what prevents the grosser abuses of those in power. Whatever evils Bush, Clinton, Nixon, LBJ, Roosevelt, or any other president has caused, those evils have been tempered by the voice of public dissent. A silent people is a doomed people.

You don't have to agree with her message - I know I don't - but you have to respect her right to say it, and you should at least listen once. The voice of the dissenter (whatever side they are on) and the U.S.'s tradition of their power to affect the public sentiment is what keeps us free - more than any amount of soldiers, money, homeland security, or MSM.

I've heard her out, and think she's way off base - but let her have her say.

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Jace Raven

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Icon 1 posted August 19, 2005 08:23      Profile for Jace Raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
WARNING: ANGRY MARINE AHEAD

quote:
Jace, I'm surprised at you in particular. This woman's son was a Marine. By her actions, she is dishonoring everything her son--your fellow Marine--was fighting for. And you're taking her side?
Wait, what?

quote:
A mother whose son has died in a war (that was based on a pack of lies) has got all emotional.
What was a pack of lies? The fact that Iraq had WMD’s? I think not, we supplied Saddam with those exact WMD’s in the first gulf war. We knew he had them. We just had to get them back. Let me point out that I have access to TS Message traffic and I’ll assure you that just because we didn’t see it in the news, doesn’t mean that we didn’t find any… take that as you will…

Or maybe it is the fact that we think that the Middle East is harboring Radical Islamic Terrorists, Jihad’s and Insurgents (those radicals that come from various countries into Iraq [anywhere apposing forces are] to find the fight). Now correct me if I’m wrong but I do believe this to be very true.

So which pack of lies is it?

Now for the attention craving whore:

The death count for American forces in well into the 18,000s.

How many mothers have demanded to see the president? 1
How many mothers have wanted to find someone to pin the blame for their son or daughters death? That, my friend, is a much higher number.

What you must realize is that service members and specifically Marines, by nature, join by their own free will, knowing the danger that entails.
Are we crazy? NO!
Are we brave? I will let you be the judge.

And now for my rant:

When you walk into the Army’s recruiters office you will see a large banner that says “$50,000 Signing Bonus: For College!” and all sorts of other incentives posted on the walls.

When you walk into the USMC recruiter’s office you will see the Eagle Globe and Anchor. The Marine Corps Emblem and slogans such as “Semper Fidelis” “War Dogs” “Devil Dogs” “TuefelHunden” and many other motivating slogans. They will sit you down and ask you a couple of questions. They will then put out a couple of cards with different things written on them:
Physical Fitness
Pride of belonging
Education
Money
Bonuses
Training
And a couple others that I can’t seem to remember. If you answer with either Bonuses or Money; they will ask you to go to the Army. Being a Marine isn’t just about being in the military. It is stated in our mission that we are here to win wars and do as the President directs. That is one thing that they tell you first when you go to sign up. It isn’t like any of the other branches. Every marine is a Rifleman and Warrior first. You do not join the Marine Corps in under the impression that you will not go to Iraq or you will not fight. Your entire first 6 months in the Marine Corps will be spent learning how to be a warrior. Before you learn anything else you learn the art of war. This is something that any good recruiter will tell your parent and urge you to re-instill the idea in your mother. Being a Marine is about Honor, Courage, and Commitment. Having the honor to do what is right when the situation doesn’t exactly pose as being right, having the courage to make that decision and having the commitment to your Corps, your Country and our way of life.

Death is inevitable, and Marines know this all to well but when anything other than just letting us go and letting us go quietly is extremely unacceptable! He fought for his nation and gave the ultimate sacrifice; a sacrifice that many a brave men before him have given and a sacrifice that many more men will give.

quote:
Sheehan, founder of Gold Star Families for Peace, is demanding a meeting with Bush in hopes of asking the president what her son Casey died to achieve
quote:
24, of Vacaville, California.
Sheehan died in Baghdad, Iraq, when his unit was attacked with rocket-propelled grenades and small arms fire. He was assigned to 1st Battalion, 82nd Field Artillery Regiment, 1st Cavalry Division, Fort Hood, Texas. Died on April 4, 2004.

Now I must emphasize that his unit was attacked with rocket-propelled grenades and small arms fire. He was attached to a fighting Artillery unit. A very mobile Artillery unit at that.

Let this man die. Just let him go. He died for his country. He died FIGHTING in the name of freedom and he gave his life in that fight.


It is funny that this organization that she has started only has just begun now that her son has died and all of a whopping 6 members all are parents of troop KIA. It is almost as if she is using her sons death as a reason to bring the troops home. GO FIGURE!

Sad thing is she is within of 2 hours of me. I am highly tempted to go and punch this bitch in the throat!


http://www.gsfp.org/
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/17/crawford.protest/index.html
http://www.fallenheroesmemorial.com/oif/profiles/sheehancasey.html
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0124-20.htm

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fs

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Icon 1 posted August 19, 2005 11:34      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Personally, I think Cindy Sheehan deserves sympathy and understanding. I can't imagine how awful it must be to lose a child, and to feel powerless to prevent it. And then to continue to watch other people's sons and daughters die for a cause you don't support or understand... I'm sure every news report brings her a whole new wave of fresh pain.

I don't think that she can accomplish anything. I do think think that what she is doing now is part of her healing process. Some people, I'm sure, see a therapist, some get anti-depressants just to get them out of bed in the morning, some join support groups, some just carry on silently with their grief and loss, and this is Ms. Sheehan's way of trying to make sense out of what happened to her son.

I don't imagine that, if he has any human feelings at all, watching and listening to Ms. Sheehan on the news is easy on the President. I don't think there would be any point in him meeting with her however. He can't bring her son back, after all, and he can't give her any answer as to why her son died that will miraculously make her feel better.

I do think that Ms. Sheehan would do better to direct her efforts toward things like campaigning for better armor for vehicles, starting support groups for other families, or volunteer service at a VA hospital. I do applaud Ms. Sheehan for trying to do something though, even if I think her direction is misguided and futile.

That the media has latched onto this topic with the ferocity they have is rather shameful. I detest the coverage from both the "right-wing" and "left-wing" perspectives. I think it is revolting to turn a grieving mother into a media spectacle, even if that is what she says she wants right now. I think that some of the groups latching on to Ms. Sheehan are equally revolting, since it really seems that the only reason they are there is to get a share of the air time.

I don't think there is any point in debating whether we should be at war in Iraq, Afghanistan, or anywhere else. I know I have my own (strong) opinions on the subject, and that most likely nothing anyone says here is going to change them.

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted August 19, 2005 12:11      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by FireSnake:

I don't think that she can accomplish anything. I do think think that what she is doing now is part of her healing process. Some people, I'm sure, see a therapist, some get anti-depressants just to get them out of bed in the morning, some join support groups, some just carry on silently with their grief and loss, and this is Ms. Sheehan's way of trying to make sense out of what happened to her son.

That seems a good possibility to me, too. Different people grieve in very different ways. Assuming that is her motive, I'm not sure what she's doing is the most constructive, but it definitely beats turning to drugs and alcohol, as I've seen some do.

quote:

That the media has latched onto this topic with the ferocity they have is rather shameful. I detest the coverage from both the "right-wing" and "left-wing" perspectives. I think it is revolting to turn a grieving mother into a media spectacle, even if that is what she says she wants right now. I think that some of the groups latching on to Ms. Sheehan are equally revolting, since it really seems that the only reason they are there is to get a share of the air time.

Unfortunately, a lot of the behavior you've mentioned only reinforces feelings of rage and hate, which, IMO, is not healthy for a grieving person.

quote:

I don't think there is any point in debating whether we should be at war in Iraq, Afghanistan, or anywhere else. I know I have my own (strong) opinions on the subject, and that most likely nothing anyone says here is going to change them.

Good (edit: wo)man! [thumbsup] That debate gets to volatile to be much fun, anyway. [Geek]

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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sconzey
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Icon 1 posted August 19, 2005 17:38      Profile for sconzey     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ugh. Cindy Sheehan has a right to be emotional, her son died. Fsck, I'd be pretty distraught if I were in her place.

However, her son was an adult, he wasn't tricked into signing up, that was a rational decision. If there's anyone Cindy should be angry at, if there's anyone who is truely responsible for her son's death, it's her son.

As to telling GB what you think of him, well... I think people are forgetting you have this:
 -

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alfrin
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Icon 1 posted August 19, 2005 18:12      Profile for alfrin     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by nerdwithnofriends:
I think it's an attention-grabber. Not so much for the whole nation to see her, but for a world leader to feel her pain. That's all; she just wants attention.

Of course, I sympathize with her on being angry about her sons death, but Military service at this point is voluntary, soooo... yeah.

I'm going to have to agree with you on this one. We have a voluntary army, you don't really have to go unless you want to. It's not Bush's fault that her son signed up for the army, if she didn't want him to do it, then she should have forbade him (consiquently incouraging him in a teenage fashion)

As sad as it is, it is no excuse to protest

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Matias
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Icon 1 posted August 20, 2005 06:43      Profile for Matias   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
As to telling GB what you think of him, well... I think people are forgetting you have this:
 -

I have a yes no view but it is amazing how many people I know that did not vote that day. But those are the one's expressing what he is doing wrong. [shake head]

I'm just wating for another one... [Roll Eyes]

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ASM65816
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Icon 4 posted August 20, 2005 11:17      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
About Ballot Boxes and the US ....

Bush knows he can't get elected again.
Cheney knows he hasn't got a chance at getting elected president.

In the US, low gas prices mean votes. Causing an increase in gas prices is political suicide. Unfortunately, low gas prices are part of the reason that some people will sit in an SUV talking on the cell phone with the A/C running full blast in the middle of a smoking-hot parking lot.

I really, really hope that the increase in the price of gas is the "kick in the pants" that makes Americans reconsider how much oil they use.

In my opinion, a typical US president (one trying to get himself or his VP elected) would have forced gas prices to remain artificially low, and Americans would happily buy cheap gas, vote for him, and think that the oil will last forever. This is the behavior that has made us dependent on foreign oil in the first place.

Part II: Bush & Sheehan

There is no point in Bush meeting with the woman. Her remarks "during a rally at San Francisco State University" made it clear that there will be no useful discussion. Second, the president's job is to meet with heads of state and representatives of the American people. Any meeting with ordinary citizens is for information gathering or PR.

Look at it this way: If TFD and I had a meeting on "Middle-east Political Policies and Solutions," would you expect it to be "productive"? I'll answer that for you -- "No" (historical evidence proves it). Therefore, not having the confrontation is the best solution.

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

Posts: 1035 | From: Third rock from sun. | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
TMBWITW,PB

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Icon 1 posted August 20, 2005 11:25      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think Bush meeting with her and talking, even in private, would do wonders for his public image. Of course, now that she's gone home to care for her mother it's really a moot point.

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"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it may be necessary from time to time to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye."
—Miss Piggy

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Chesty
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Icon 1 posted August 20, 2005 18:00      Profile for Chesty         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think she has been disingenuous from the start. She has wailed out as if the President killed her son and then cast her into oblivion.

She has met with him. She disagrees with him and always will. He sent top policy advisors to explain to her why we are in Iraq. She dismissed them like she was Queen with a waive of her hand (all the while hurling insults). She doesn't want to know the truth - SHE CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH.

Fewer American service personel have died in Iraq in the last three years than people who have been killed in car crashes in New York. (from NYSDMV)
Yet we do not have hoards harranging the country to end motor vehicular travel.

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Callipygous
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Icon 14 posted August 21, 2005 16:12      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Judging by the heat generated here, I'd say she's done a pretty good job. Anyone who has got so far under the skin of the pro "War" folk to generate the anger seen here must be pressing your buttons fairly accurately. I would suggest using logic in these arguments, but that is just so last century! [Wink]

So go girl!

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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