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Author Topic: Your all gay marriage
nerdwithnofriends
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Icon 1 posted July 22, 2005 13:41      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Bad idea, Tom. That's exactly what you don't want to do... it'll give people a real reason to hate you ("He only does it because he ENJOYS seeing us uncomfortable"). If you do decide to go to prom with your SO, don't do it just to anger people and make them feel weird.

In my city, the highschools are open admissions, meaning that you get to choose which highschool you go to. This results in schools that attract certain kinds of people. So of course there's the liberal/hippy school that has the largest openly (and note the term openly) gay population. My school comes in second, with its reputation as a 'city kids'. Third comes the largest school in the city, which is, of course, the hick school. Gay guys (nobody disfavors lesbians) really aren't looked upon too kindly over there.

Don't know where I was going with that, I guess just to give an idea of what our city thinks of gays. I think the prevailing opinion is just 'I don't care what you do in your bedroom, just tell me about it. And don't hit on me, or else you'll get hurt."

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"The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of a digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top of a mountain or in the petals of a flower." - Robert M. Pirsig

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted July 22, 2005 13:45      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
quote:
Originally posted by drunkennewfiemidget:
I'm just annoyed at all those people that still insist that being gay is a 'life choice'. Because someone gets up in the morning and goes, "hm, I think I'll be gay! that'll be fun!"

[Roll Eyes]

Technically, it is and it isn't. They do have a choice in who they have sex with -- sorta like I have a choice in what I eat... But they have as little choice in who they are attracted to and fall in love with; as we have over what foods we like, what foods we are allergic too and who we fall in love with. I realize that this analogy is kind of crude, but it works on those who are so bigotted they just cannot grasp it.
I'm just not sure I buy this stance yet. There certainly seems to be a strong "nature" part of it, but the examples of people who have chosen different orientations suggests that there is some level of choice involved in at least a portion of the population.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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TomtheMacMan
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Icon 1 posted July 22, 2005 13:55      Profile for TomtheMacMan     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by nerdwithnofriends:
Bad idea, Tom. That's exactly what you don't want to do... it'll give people a real reason to hate you ("He only does it because he ENJOYS seeing us uncomfortable"). If you do decide to go to prom with your SO, don't do it just to anger people and make them feel weird.

Oh, it would definetly not be just to piss people off, but it is funny to see the way a few people react to it. [evil]

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-Tom

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nerdwithnofriends
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Icon 1 posted July 22, 2005 14:01      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TomtheMacMan:
quote:
Originally posted by nerdwithnofriends:
Bad idea, Tom. That's exactly what you don't want to do... it'll give people a real reason to hate you ("He only does it because he ENJOYS seeing us uncomfortable"). If you do decide to go to prom with your SO, don't do it just to anger people and make them feel weird.

Oh, it would definetly not be just to piss people off, but it is funny to see the way a few people react to it. [evil]
Ever ask a 'goth' why they do the things they do? More than half the time, they won't say "to be different" (hell, being a goth isn't different anymore because of the appearance of HotTopk). It's "to make people feel weird". That seems to be exactly what you're doing, and the result will be a social standing equivalent to that of said goths. Honestly, you're just going down a path that's going to make people disllike you.

Again, I highly recommend against doing it for the reasons you've provided.

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"The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of a digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top of a mountain or in the petals of a flower." - Robert M. Pirsig

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TomtheMacMan
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Icon 1 posted July 22, 2005 14:30      Profile for TomtheMacMan     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Let's just agree to disagree here. I think that's wisest at a time like this, just so we don't say things we don't want to in fits of debate. [Smile]

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-Tom

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nerdwithnofriends
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Icon 1 posted July 22, 2005 14:33      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Works for me.

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"The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of a digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top of a mountain or in the petals of a flower." - Robert M. Pirsig

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted July 22, 2005 14:49      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
I'm just not sure I buy this stance yet. There certainly seems to be a strong "nature" part of it, but the examples of people who have chosen different orientations suggests that there is some level of choice involved in at least a portion of the population.

I believe you should have said...

... but the examples of people who have chosen to publicly acknowledge their orientation ...

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted July 22, 2005 15:33      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
I'm just not sure I buy this stance yet. There certainly seems to be a strong "nature" part of it, but the examples of people who have chosen different orientations suggests that there is some level of choice involved in at least a portion of the population.

I believe you should have said...

... but the examples of people who have chosen to publicly acknowledge their orientation ...

I reread my post and realized it didn't come out the way I intended. It should read: "but the examples of people who have chosen to alter their previous orientation." I'm not only referring to those who change from a heterosexual to homosexual lifestyle, but also those who do the reverse.

I was checking for links to give examples, and found an unusual site which illustrates some of why I think sexual choice is not completely innate.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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ASM65816
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Icon 5 posted July 22, 2005 19:06      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Compared to homosexual marriage, polygamy has had far greater social acceptance for centuries. What are the rights of those who believe in having multiple spouses? Why should a man be prohibited from having many wives? Is anyone supporting their rights?

quote:
... grant full legal rights to same-sex couples ... as those in traditional unions between a man and a woman.
Does this mean that laws and regulations cannot make distinctions between "male/female" unions and "same-sex" unions?

Will government create additional "rights" for married couples which are clearly impossible or simply meaningless to male/female unions?

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted July 22, 2005 20:29      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
All I will say is if you taunt people about your 'gayness' as a way to piss them off, upset them, or alienate them, you will only end up doing all of those things to yourself.

Do what you want to do because you want to do it, and because it's what makes you happy; in the end, you're the only person that matters in your own life. Second is family. Third is everyone else.

Live your life the way you want to live it -- not the way others don't want you to live it.

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted July 27, 2005 20:00      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Tom-
If there is no threat to your or your partner's safty Tom, I say shake the system.

ASM-
Compared to homosexual marriage, polygamy has had far greater social acceptance for centuries.
No, one form of polygamy has had greater social acceptance because the western culture has strong biblical roots and bibilical kings loved their girlies. If a woman, however, thought to even think of another man she was a slut and God would cast her into Hell.

What are the rights of those who believe in having multiple spouses?
Depends on the state. Remeber that Ohio often turns a blind eye to the Mormon towns. Since most Mormon women stay home to take care of the kids, the federal taxes just show one income. Probate laws are set by the state of the dead, so I'm not sure how the divide the stuff -- if they do -- when someone dies.

Why should a man be prohibited from having many wives?
Or Husbands? Or both? I see no problem with that.

Is anyone supporting their rights?
Winning back the unalienable rights takes time. Each step is a step toward more freedoms for more people.

Does this mean that laws and regulations cannot make distinctions between "male/female" unions and "same-sex" unions?
Why should they?

Will government create additional "rights" for married couples which are clearly impossible or simply meaningless to male/female unions?
Additional rights? They are fighting for the same rights as anyone else... To marry someone they love, and loves them back. And before you begin thumpping that bible (I do recall you quoting from that old story tale?) -- I will remind you that the tenant of christian faith is love (I Corithians 13).

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My Site

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Groggle
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Icon 14 posted July 30, 2005 12:14      Profile for Groggle     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
A couple of things:

1. This is by far the most rational discussion I've seen of the SGM (same-gender-marriage) topic. Congratulations to all for keeping it intelligent and civil!

2. The common element of discussion is the classic "nature versus nurture" argument in some form or another. Basically, it seems that in many respects, the most vocal (not necessarily here) opponents of SGM marriage assert that homosexuality is a choice.

I encountered a rather good book recently The Sexual Spectrum: Exploring Human Diversity does a very good job of providing a rational discussion of the topic. The author basically argues that human behaviour is vastly diverse, so why wouldn't sexual behaviour be similarly characterized?

Once you wrap your mind around that notion, the issues of choice and behaviour become relatively easy to grok - and the notion of SGM is suddenly a whole lot less difficult to accept. (trust me - I got a couple of people I know to read the book, and their position on SGM shifted radically afterwards - it was quite an interesting observation)

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted July 30, 2005 18:01      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Groggle:
A couple of things:

1. This is by far the most rational discussion I've seen of the SGM (same-gender-marriage) topic. Congratulations to all for keeping it intelligent and civil!

2. The common element of discussion is the classic "nature versus nurture" argument in some form or another. Basically, it seems that in many respects, the most vocal (not necessarily here) opponents of SGM marriage assert that homosexuality is a choice.

I encountered a rather good book recently The Sexual Spectrum: Exploring Human Diversity does a very good job of providing a rational discussion of the topic. The author basically argues that human behaviour is vastly diverse, so why wouldn't sexual behaviour be similarly characterized?

Once you wrap your mind around that notion, the issues of choice and behaviour become relatively easy to grok - and the notion of SGM is suddenly a whole lot less difficult to accept. (trust me - I got a couple of people I know to read the book, and their position on SGM shifted radically afterwards - it was quite an interesting observation)

There were recent stories, too, which I am too lazy to google for right now .. I'm sure someone else will where neuro surgeons monitored the human brain and found that gay male's brains became stimulated by the image of good looking males in the same way that straight men were by good looking females, thus proving that it is a biological/genetic thing and not a choice.

On top of that, while our world is definitely more accepting of homosexuality now than it was say 20 years ago, I have a hard time believing all these people would choose to be gay considering the stigma, and life problems it would bring about in the process.

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magefile
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Icon 1 posted July 30, 2005 18:45      Profile for magefile     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Re: Tom's choice to bring his SO to prom - I see something similar in my own life (although obviously a bit different). I am disabled, and that's clear at a glance. Now, I'm sure as hell not going to go to extra effort to hide it (if that was even possible), so it's not really a choice, but it is always kind of funny to watch people try to adjust their attitudes.

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Let them be stupid - the market will sort it out.

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TMBWITW,PB

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Icon 11 posted September 07, 2005 07:44      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Looks like California may have jumped on the bandwagon. Our legislature just became the first in the country to pass a bill legalizing gay marriage without a court order. Now it's up to Ahh-nuld...

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/politics/cal/la-me-gaymarriage7sep07,1,5420306.story?coll=la-news-politics-california

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"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it may be necessary from time to time to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye."
—Miss Piggy

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted September 07, 2005 12:22      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Frome the article:
quote:

Leno characterized gay marriage as the most important civil rights issue of the 21st century.

A little arrogant, considering we are only 1/20 of the way into the century. [Wink]

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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TMBWITW,PB

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Icon 1 posted September 07, 2005 12:53      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Nah, just timely. Like how every movie is "the Best Movie of the Year" on January 10. [Wink]

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"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it may be necessary from time to time to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye."
—Miss Piggy

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 07, 2005 13:28      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well, there goes civilization as we know it...

How will all those straight couples stay married, now that they're letting the pillow-biters do it?

</sarcasm>

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Grummash

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Icon 1 posted September 07, 2005 13:35      Profile for Grummash     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TFD seems to be raising a very serious question here -

What exactly does any society find so scary about the prospect of same-gender marriages?

Oh My Gawd - these two people love each other!

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...and yet, across the gulf of space, minds immeasurably superior to ours regarded this earth with envious eyes...

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Grummash

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Icon 1 posted September 07, 2005 14:35      Profile for Grummash     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi TomtheMacman

can I make an observation? In an earlier post you ask "Imagine what would happen if I was openly gay". and I have to wonder, have you come out to your family???

Of course you should be entitled to go to the Prom with your boyfriend, and tell everybody there that he IS your boyfriend - if they don't like it, that is their problem. However, your family may prefer to hear the news from you and not on the grapevine.

if you have addressed this issue already, then please forgive me.

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...and yet, across the gulf of space, minds immeasurably superior to ours regarded this earth with envious eyes...

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Serenak

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Icon 1 posted September 07, 2005 15:06      Profile for Serenak     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Some of it is an age/culture thing.

I'm 42 and I don't have a problem with it, though when I was younger I know it was widely frowned upon and it wasn't always wise to voice my opinion.

Many older people find it hard to throw off the prejudices inculcated into them when they were young - though you'd be surprised how many people 65+ despise the bigotry of the past because of what it did to people they knew...

My maternal grandmother was a devout Christian but once said to me (while I was "living in sin") "If you love the person you are with and are committed to living as man and wife then a marriage certificate is just a piece of paper... It's love and commitment that make a marriage - not a church or a registrar").

She was gone when that relationship foundered (but ten years rates as a damn good try in my book) but I like to think she would also have said then "a marriage without love is no marriage at all"

She (and my grandfather) grew up after the first world war in a society with far stricter rules than we can probably imagine. Yet without compromising her principles she found a way of incorporating the changes in society into her world view. She never "threw away" what she believed, she just decided to take the implied truth of her faith on moral matters as more important than the inculcated cultural ones. If a marriage is the joining together of one man and one woman in the eyes of God, then it is for God to decide what is a valid marriage and not the state. That isn't to say she stopped abhorring promiscuity, etc., just that she accepted that society's views had changed. In her view sometimes for the better and sometimes not...

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"So if you want my address - it's No. 1 at the end of the bar, where I sit with the broken angels, clutching at straws and nursing my scars..."

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ewomack
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Icon 1 posted September 08, 2005 10:52      Profile for ewomack   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
What exactly does any society find so scary about the prospect of same-gender marriages?
There is a lot of xenophobia about "Men with Men" or "Women with Women". This hasn't been the case historically. It was strange for men in ancient Greece to NOT have a same sex lover. Today I think the "threat to the institution of marriage" is really an ideological cloak for outright disapproval. There is no "threat"; there are just people who support it and people who don't. Those that don't can't politically come right out and say "I hate gays" (though of course many do, and still many others, claiming that they speak "for God" (which should ALWAYS be a warning sign), say that they somehow know that the supreme being even hates homosexual behavior - how they can know this I can't figure out).

In the end it's just human-all-too-human prejudice. Call it or cloak it in whatever slogan you want: there is no "moral law" against homosexuality. There's simply prejudice against it. I find it very similar to racial prejudice because it's a denial of basic rights to a category of people for no reason apart from "who they are". I have yet to hear a good argument supporting the denial of something so basic as the ability to marry the one you love. Why would anyone deny a person, any person, that privilege?

And Arnold will veto the California legislation. But twenty years from now we'll probably all wonder what the big deal was. Homosexual marriage will happen eventually. These things take a few generations to sink in.

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Grummash

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Icon 1 posted September 08, 2005 12:11      Profile for Grummash     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi ewomack
quote:
Homosexual marriage will happen eventually. These things take a few generations to sink in.
I think you are right, but I fear that it will take more than a few generations. Still, maybe eventually there will be a fair deal for everyone, homosexual, trans-gender, bald, fat, ugly.... whatever....one day, perhaps, there will just be people.

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...and yet, across the gulf of space, minds immeasurably superior to ours regarded this earth with envious eyes...

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Serenak

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Icon 1 posted September 08, 2005 14:34      Profile for Serenak     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Today there are "just people"

Trouble is a lot of them are bigoted, racist, xenophobic, homophobic or just so "not happy in their own skins" that anyone who is any remote way different from them is a target for fear, ridicule, abuse or worse...

Plus ça change...

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"So if you want my address - it's No. 1 at the end of the bar, where I sit with the broken angels, clutching at straws and nursing my scars..."

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TMBWITW,PB

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Icon 1 posted September 08, 2005 17:04      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ewomack:
[QUOTE]
And Arnold will veto the California legislation.

*sigh* Yep. article

I don't get how he thinks that passing legislation is unconstitutional and would rather have it happen due to a court order. The courts are supposed to decide what is legal, not necessarily what is right, and they do it based on our state constitution and our legislation! [shake head] Silly Ahh-nuld...

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"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it may be necessary from time to time to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye."
—Miss Piggy

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