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Author Topic: Flag Burning.. How do you feel?
The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted June 29, 2005 04:30      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ok, so burning the flag isn't going to win you a lot of friends in most countries, but a wise man once said...

A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular.
- Adlai E. Stevenson.

It would seem that GWB and his cronies are intent on making unpopularity a crime.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted June 29, 2005 10:24      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:

It would seem that GWB and his cronies are intent on making unpopularity a crime.

I don't know that I would phrase it as a GWB move. The anti-flag-burning amendment idea certainly didn't originate with him, and I haven't heard him produce much commentary regarding this particular attempt.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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Ivan
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Icon 1 posted June 29, 2005 18:52      Profile for Ivan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ewomack:
Anyone for tennis?

"..wouldn't that be nice.. do doo do do do"


Heheh <_< love that song.

Can I threadjack a flame war? Seems like the honorable thing to do.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted June 30, 2005 02:12      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What is curious from my perspective is why the US flag is such a potent symbol to Americans. I don't think other nations invest nearly as much meaning into their national flags, and certainly that is true of the UK. If someone burnt a Union Jack, they would be regarded as curious and eccentric, and only a very few people would be angered.

Why is the flag so much more emotional for Americans?

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted June 30, 2005 03:30      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
If someone burnt a Union Jack, they would be regarded as curious and eccentric, and only a very few people would be angered.

In Scotland, you'd have a hard time finding a Union Jack to burn, we prefer to fly our own (and God help anyone who burned one of those !)

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Aditu
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Icon 1 posted June 30, 2005 07:05      Profile for Aditu     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have to say I think it is far more disrepectful having the flag on things like underwear etc. That seems more debasing of the symbol than burning it to express your political unhappiness.

My family has fought for the US since the Revolutionary War. My dad served in the Army and yet protested the Vietnam War. I think they fought for me to be able to have my own opinion, whether it is popular or not.

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Jonathan
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Icon 1 posted June 30, 2005 08:06      Profile for Jonathan   Author's Homepage         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well, I've been to a flag burning before. It was taken very seriously. I believe it's the right way to dispose the flag. I mean just throwing it away in the dumster would be kinda' bad.
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bull3t
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Icon 1 posted June 30, 2005 08:27      Profile for bull3t     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan:
Well, I've been to a flag burning before. It was taken very seriously. I believe it's the right way to dispose the flag. I mean just throwing it away in the dumster would be kinda' bad.

Hell yeah. I was a cub/boy scout for almost ten years. I retired many flags.. thats awesome that you would mention this.. it hadn't even crossed my mind when i started this thread.


what... is it that hard to believe i was a boy scout? [Wink]

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bull3t
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Icon 1 posted June 30, 2005 08:30      Profile for bull3t     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:

It would seem that GWB and his cronies are intent on making unpopularity a crime.

I don't know that I would phrase it as a GWB move. The anti-flag-burning amendment idea certainly didn't originate with him, and I haven't heard him produce much commentary regarding this particular attempt.
actually, it started with ORRIN HATCH, the dumb SOB (personal opinion) who respresents utah in the senate.

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GC's Mosthated.
"I donít care if people hate my guts; I assume most of them do. The important question is whether they are in a position to do anything about it."
-William S Burroughs

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Jace Raven

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Icon 1 posted June 30, 2005 09:54      Profile for Jace Raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm going to try my hardest to stay as calm as possible.

I may not agree with what you are saying by burning an American flag but I will fight to the death to protect your right to say it. Just be forewarned. If I ever catch anyone burning an American flag and not at a retirement ceromony, the flag that I fight for and the nation and principles that it represents, I will not hesitate to kick your fuckin ass. Too many of my brothers have sweat and bled protecting the flag and the nation it represents and the rights that we are fortunate to have, and I will be damned if I dont excercise my right to free speach and punch them in the fuckin throat for commiting such a disrespectful act of "free speach".

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted June 30, 2005 10:13      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Jace, you will fight to the death to protect the right of free speech, but punch the throat of anyone who exercises that right.

What have you been smoking, dude?

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted June 30, 2005 10:23      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Looks like the brain washing of boot camp has worked great there Jace [Wink]

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted June 30, 2005 10:27      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:

Why is the flag so much more emotional for Americans?

Good question. I suspect a lot of it has to do with the general tendency for people in the US to view our flag as a symbol of ideals as much as of a nation. Take Jace's post:

quote:
Originally posted by Jace Raven:
If I ever catch anyone burning an American flag and not at a retirement ceromony, the flag that I fight for and the nation and principles that it represents, I will not hesitate to kick your fuckin ass.

It's not just about the nation, but also the ideals, which tends to breed a stronger reaction in many people. (Hope you don't mind me using you as an example, Jace)

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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csk

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Icon 1 posted June 30, 2005 10:31      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Umm, there's one little loophole in your argument, Jace, ass-kicking isn't speech, free or otherwise. It's assault. Now, if you'd said that you'd verbally tear strips off the people involved, I'd have much more respect for you.

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6 weeks to go!

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Jace Raven

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Icon 1 posted June 30, 2005 11:12      Profile for Jace Raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
...and flag burning is vandalism. Not speach!
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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted June 30, 2005 11:26      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So.....Flag buring is vandalism.


Then, this must be liberation, right?

 -

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Aditu
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Icon 1 posted June 30, 2005 11:29      Profile for Aditu     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Two questions

1. Do they burn there own flags as political statments in other countries?

2. How do people feel about flags being used on underwear, beach towels and other item used in a casual way?

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted June 30, 2005 11:55      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
1. Do they burn there own flags as political statments in other countries?

I've seen it happen in Canada

2. How do people feel about flags being used on underwear, beach towels and other item used in a casual way?

I'm pretty patriotic, but seeing a flag on a swim suit or the like doesn't bother me. What does bother me is seeing my flag sewn onto a Yanks backpack/luggage

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TMBWITW,PB

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Icon 1 posted June 30, 2005 12:03      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jace Raven:
...and flag burning is vandalism. Not speach!

Not if it's your own flag (as in you bought and paid for that particular piece of cloth).

Now if they are tearing the flag down off the capital and burning it I fully support you in kicking ass.

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óMiss Piggy

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Jace Raven

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Icon 1 posted June 30, 2005 12:56      Profile for Jace Raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well I'm glad I have your support in kicking the ass of all burners of our Star-Spangled Banner.
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Charles
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Icon 1 posted June 30, 2005 14:40      Profile for Charles     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
They do no brain wash you in boot camp. He is just a little over zealous.
Beating the crap out of someone that is burning a flag solves/proves nothing. In fact you make a very good point for the other side when you go off like that.

If people want to live in a country they should respect it enough to not burn the flag, other wise they should pick a new country to reside in.

And burning the flag that has is warn and tattered is not what we are talking about. that is different. Anyone who has seen it done knows it is not the same as when people "mob together" and burn a flag in protest. The very thing they are burning and protesting against is the country that gives them the right to gather and protest.

It is just extremely disrespectful and the point would be made much better with out burning the flag.

I spent 18 months in Iraq, I did not totally agree with the reasons we went to Iraq. So I might serve the country and disagree with it at times, but I am not going to burn the flag that I serve.

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted June 30, 2005 15:02      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Charles:
They do no (sic) brain wash you in boot camp.

Bullshit! Absolute Bullshit.

As a former soldier, and a a trainer in a battle school I can tell you it is all about brainwashing.....you can call it what ever you want.

BootCamp:

*You all get the same hair cut.
*You all wear the same clothes.
*You shit, sleep and eat together.
*Minimal contact with the outside world including friends and family.
*Destroying individuality.
*Sleep deprevation.
*Pushing one to the physical, emotional and mental limits.
*Stripping the individual thought from a soldier.
*Building a group of individuals who will react (as one) to commands, with out question even if it kills them.

That, my friend is brainwashing.

Oh, and as far as Iraq....yes, it is wrong.

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted June 30, 2005 15:51      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
quote:
Originally posted by Charles:
They do no (sic) brain wash you in boot camp.

Bullshit! Absolute Bullshit.

As a former soldier, and a a trainer in a battle school I can tell you it is all about brainwashing.....you can call it what ever you want.

BootCamp:

*You all get the same hair cut.
*You all wear the same clothes.
*You shit, sleep and eat together.
*Minimal contact with the outside world including friends and family.
*Destroying individuality.
*Sleep deprevation.
*Pushing one to the physical, emotional and mental limits.
*Stripping the individual thought from a soldier.
*Building a group of individuals who will react (as one) to commands, with out question even if it kills them.

That, my friend is brainwashing.

Oh, and as far as Iraq....yes, it is wrong.

I think indoctrination seems a little more appropriate, rather than brainwashing, since, at this time, no one is forced into the program.

It's a subtle difference, I suppose, but it is a difference. [Geek]

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted June 30, 2005 16:00      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So, I you have heard of the draft, right.....

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ASM65816
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Icon 4 posted June 30, 2005 17:17      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
... brainwashing ....
BWAH-HAHA-HA-HA !!!!!!

Let's see, I remember getting three good meals a day, mandatory sleep time, Sundays were mostly "personal" time, and after three months most people had the same interests as they had beforehand. (It was fairly obvious off-duty, off-base.)

Of my favorite memories, a scene that played out several times:
quote:
McIntire: Drill SGT, that's bulls_it, Drill SGT.
Drill SGT: DROP, McIntire!
(McIntire begins doing pushups.)

McIntire was a lean football player type. He had "perfect" form and aside from running he easily maxed PT events. The Drill SGT would give his short speech and tell McIntire to recover. It really was funny, because McIntire could say what a lot of other people wanted to say, and for all practical purposes not get in any trouble.

I thought that the first lesson in boot camp was: "Don't stand out like a sore thumb." They didn't say it, but 90% of everyone usually figured it out.

quote:
... even if it kills them.
So how many deaths do you see in a typical class at Basic Training? I'll tell you (in case you don't know), none. Exercise and going three or four days without watching TV or playing video games doesn't kill people. Not killing your own people should be pretty easy to understand if you consider a quote from†General George S. Patton:
quote:
"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."
(To Cap'n Vic) Of course, you were in a different army.

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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