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Author Topic: Internet Explorer 7
drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted March 17, 2005 07:16      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 

Microsoft will be making IE 7, and independent of Longhorn


This was announced on /. a few days ago. Some new features included are: tabbed browsing, news aggregators, enhanced security, transparent png support, and native IDN support.

I'm not sure if it should be named ie 7, or firefox 0.9.

If you've read my posts over the time I've been here, I'm sure you're already well aware of my loathing hatred for Microsoft and everything they've done, but haven't they gone far enough?

They're blatantly copying firefox. They're going to call it 'innovative', and they're going to have a strangle hold on the browser market as they have all along. What the hell is wrong with people today?

Go get firefox today.

Oh yes, and according to rumours, MS developers will embrace SOME of the CSS2 standards outlined by w3c, but they're not interested in supporting them entirely. [Roll Eyes] [shake head]

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Mac D
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Icon 1 posted March 17, 2005 07:19      Profile for Mac D     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I call for a complete boycot of Microsoft.

I started years ago.

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There's nothing wrong with me, This is how I'm supposed to be.

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CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted March 17, 2005 07:59      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I use a mix of MS and Linux myself. As far as the things they are planning on adding. Do what works. I only use IE when the page requires me to use Active-X or something of the such. And certain Nortel apps won't work on anything else. I always complain about MS's disregard of agreed standards. I hope they can get IE7 to work right. It will make my life easier on those occasions that I have to go to someones house and fix their crap.

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Does he know our big secret?
Has one of us confessed?
'Bout the wires circuits and motors
Buried in our chest

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magefile
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Icon 1 posted March 17, 2005 08:00      Profile for magefile     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sigh ... it'd be so much easier, wouldn't it? If they all conformed to one standard? OTOH, if IE7 is an improvement (yeah, yeah, heresy), that could spark some more competition and improvement in FF, Konq, etc.

/me needs to quit it with the wishful thinking.

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Let them be stupid - the market will sort it out.

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Swiss Mercenary

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Icon 1 posted March 17, 2005 08:07      Profile for Swiss Mercenary     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I am now using FireFox almost all the time.

Trouble is that a couple of site I have visited refuse me entry because I am not using Micro$haft Internet Exploder. Now that is what really gets me upset.

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Evil AI at work.
I am Swiss of Borg. Holes are irrelevant, cheese will be assimilated!

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Snaggy

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Icon 3 posted March 17, 2005 08:10      Profile for Snaggy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
dnm... now you know how Mac users have been feeling since the introduction of Windows. [Roll Eyes]
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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted March 17, 2005 08:14      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mac D:
I call for a complete boycott of Microsoft.

I started years ago.

Yeayyy! Ditto!

quote:
Originally poste by dnm:
If you've read my posts over the time I've been here, I'm sure you're already well aware of my loathing hatred for Microsoft and everything they've done, but haven't they gone far enough?

That whole snake-eyed crew at MS went too far many years ago. Unfortunately, the snake-eyed crew at Apple is looking more and more like them every day. Integrity in American business? Now *that's* a rumor.

Edit: Firefox - YES! IE and Safari absolutely reek by comparison.

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I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted March 17, 2005 09:46      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I've never given MS a cent of my money, ever.

I run Linux on everything.

My business partner has a Windows 2003 server on the web for our business, and if I absolutely *NEED* windows for any reason, I'll remote desktop into it for as long as it takes to get what I need done, and then I'm out again.

I generally refuse to give my business to any company who designs a website that will only work in IE. You can't support proper standards, I'm not giving you any of my money.

(Bell Canada's website is one of them -- try and change your address in firefox... doesn't work do to ie-centric style sheets hiding the postal code field -- as such, I have NO services from Bell Canada, and it feels GOOD.)

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moped-rider
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Icon 1 posted March 17, 2005 11:50      Profile for moped-rider   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I got to say this bill sucks!!! He has had the monopoly on operating systems for years, and now he his trying to rip the makers of firefox off.It really gets me angry. [Mad]

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I wouldnt give him the cheese of me qu** two stroke Eddie. http://www.macclads.co.uk/index.html

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jordanv
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Icon 1 posted March 17, 2005 14:31      Profile for jordanv     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No doubt we will get CSS2 Extended version - featuring ActiveX++ which allows you command line access via one line of code.

I don't think Apple are becoming evil - they always were, but now they are successful and can afford to screw over the tech community on which they relied for many a year.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted March 17, 2005 16:57      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I too think MS is an evil empire, but I cannot quite see what is making dnm quite so antsy this time. It is quite predictable that MS would do this as they saw Firefox gaining traction, and it is simply a logical business decision. Compared to previuos episodes, this is quite gentlemanly behaviour, and it would be highly surprising if they did not include in IE 7 all the features you mention that any modern browser has. I would also point out while it is a common and legitimate complaint that MS (given its overwhelming size and financial muscle) provide little that is original and innovative, apart from the ways they try to lock you into their software, but as far as browsers are concerned, this is not really true. In their day IE 4 and IE 5 were quite innovative and pioneering.

Whether they will be able to produce something that breaks any new ground this time is uncertain, and even more doubtful that they will produce anything substantially more secure.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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magefile
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Icon 1 posted March 17, 2005 18:46      Profile for magefile     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think it's not so much that Microsoft is being malicious right now, as that their actions will cause IE to be in favor. It's a lot harder to promote Firefox by saying it's standards compliant, because people don't know what that is, or why standards-compliance is a Good Thing.

Thus, if Microsoft can say we have features X,Y,Z, and this causes people to switch back, MS is still not likely to improve CSS support and other compatibility issues. Thus, increased popularity of IE will continue to be a PITA for web developers. I for one would be much happier if KHTML and Gecko were dominant, rather than Trident.

OTOH, he could just be knee-jerking MS==Bad.

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jordanv
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Icon 1 posted March 17, 2005 21:00      Profile for jordanv     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The thing is IE will still be shipped with windows. People will assume IE is "good enough" again.
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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted March 17, 2005 21:12      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hey, if IE can be a better browser, all the more power to them. It's about time they finally fscking fix their PNG deficiency (so infuriating that IE does not support PNG alpha blending OOB). The really important thing is that Firefox/Mozilla/Safari/Opera cannot stagnate, and must not just maintain their quality products, but improve them, and provide a clear advantage. Netscape has gone down the tubes because it just rested on its laurels, and didn't even do a good job maintaining their software. I switched to IE somewhere around v3.0 because NS2-3 was crashing left and right, but IE worked for a longer period of time (though it froze from time to time, I think). Mind you, both were improvements over Mosaic. [Wink]

Safari really does nothing for me - I'm glad that Apple is supporting the KHTML rendering engine, and hope that it brings better functionality to Konqueror - a browser that I did enjoy using ages ago. The little-browser-that-could that I root for is Dillo - small and fast, it runs circles around Firefox on my laptop. Right now, though, I'm using an older copy of Mozilla (*blink* *blink* - hmm...I'm actually using 1.7.2 - I thought I was using 1.4), as it still runs faster than Firefox - which is kind of odd, actually (given the bloat factor of Seamonkey).

Let the browser wars begin!

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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TMBWITW,PB

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Icon 12 posted March 17, 2005 21:20      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Browser Wars. Let's see who comes out on top.

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"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it may be necessary from time to time to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye."
óMiss Piggy

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csk

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Icon 1 posted March 17, 2005 21:45      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jordanv:
The thing is IE will still be shipped with windows. People will assume IE is "good enough" again.

Yes and no. The security issues with IE have put off a lot of people, both corporate and home users. From what I'm seeing, there are quite a few non technical users (possibly prompted by technical ones) switching over to Firefox as an anti virus/popup/security exploit measure. The corporate users are going to be easier to win over and keep, it's the home users where the real battle will be, especially given that not all bells and whistles work with Firefox.

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6 weeks to go!

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted March 17, 2005 21:51      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
csk: Actually, I meant to mention this before - things are starting to improve on those fronts already:
http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/software/0,2000061733,39184793,00.htm
Source: http://mozillazine.org/talkback.html?article=6245

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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SilverBlade
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Icon 1 posted March 18, 2005 03:13      Profile for SilverBlade   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I personally am glad IE will take a larger share of the internet users.

If everybody had changed to Firefox, it would become a larger potential target to be hacked and so forth, making it as insecure as IE was before.

So let all the AOL users use their precious IE and leave us geeks and our Firefox's alone! [Big Grin]

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http://www.silver-blade.net

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted March 18, 2005 06:20      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by SilverBlade:
I personally am glad IE will take a larger share of the internet users.

If everybody had changed to Firefox, it would become a larger potential target to be hacked and so forth, making it as insecure as IE was before.

So let all the AOL users use their precious IE and leave us geeks and our Firefox's alone! [Big Grin]

Start writing web-based software. You'll change your tune rather quickly.

.. my big beef isn't that, "OH MY GOD MS IS EVIL DIE DIE DIE!", everyonw knows I hate them for more reasons than just that.

My issue is that they are going to package it with their operating systems as they have before, they're going to make it the default browser, they're going to take back marketshare that shouldn't be theirs, and they're going to continue to make crap.

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hey-U
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Icon 1 posted March 18, 2005 08:22      Profile for hey-U     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by SilverBlade:
I personally am glad IE will take a larger share of the internet users.

If everybody had changed to Firefox, it would become a larger potential target to be hacked and so forth, making it as insecure as IE was before.

So let all the AOL users use their precious IE and leave us geeks and our Firefox's alone! [Big Grin]

Ah, the old "security through obscurity" philosophy... Admittedly, Firefox seems to get patched quicker than IE -- but what doesn't? ;-)

Personally, I'm quite happy with Safari, OK it's not perfect, but AFAIK, there's no optimized-for-G4-Powerbook version of Firefox... :-(

Still, maybe Safari 2 in the forthcoming OS 10.4 will tie up the loose ends...

And, FWIW, *my* problem with MS is that the poor quality of the products doesn't justify the hefty price tag, IMNSHO... Not to mention the way they seem to lock the user base in (not that Apple is entirely perfect, either!)

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted March 18, 2005 08:59      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
hey-U: Wanna bet?
http://homepage.mac.com/krmathis/

Source: http://www.squarefree.com/burningedge/ -> http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?t=149532

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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hey-U
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Icon 1 posted March 18, 2005 09:08      Profile for hey-U     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
hey-U: Wanna bet?
http://homepage.mac.com/krmathis/

Source: http://www.squarefree.com/burningedge/ -> http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?t=149532

oooOOOooohhh!!! Nice link, dman, muchas gracias! (there goes my Friday night!)
:-)

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greycat

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Icon 1 posted March 22, 2005 06:07      Profile for greycat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have some issues with Firefox. I use it at home as my default browser on my Debian box, but I have version 0.8 put on hold. The last time I tried to "upgrade" to Firefox 1.0, things broke horribly. And going back to 0.8 wasn't pleasant either. I think I ended up completely obliterating my ~/.firefox directory (after having saved the bookmarks.html file) and starting fresh.

1) Extensions that work in 0.8 may not work in 1.0. In particular, the God Of All Extensions, mozex, doesn't seem to have a 0.9+ version yet.

2) Pressing Ctrl-U in the URL bar in 0.8 acts just like a Unix user expects Ctrl-U to work -- it clears the field. Pressing Ctrl-U in the URL bar in 1.0 brings up the page source. UGH!

3) There's no Firefox for HP-UX 10. There's no Mozilla for HP-UX 10 newer than Mozilla 1.4, which I'm using right now. Of course, since HP-UX 10 is officially past end of life, I can't blame them for not officially support them, but ....

4) Firefox 1.0's source code is a righteous fucking mess. It's not even a single build tree. It's a handful of build trees all slapped together, and each one has its own completely differet method of deciding which compiler to use, which options to pass to it, and so on. Even if you manage to convince part of the fucker to build with gcc, the rest of it still wants to build with cc. And there are platform-specific #ifdef statements that really need to become autoconf macros. And they need to not invoke ld directly in their Makefiles. And if you issue a command manually to build a single *.o file, then go back and do a "make", it might blow away your *.o file and then build it wrong (and therefore crash and die) all over again. And you can't type "make" from a subtree to build just that subtree; you have to do it from the top level and waste 20 minutes going over stuff that's already built.

And oh, did I mention, the top-level directory of the Firefox 1.0 source code is just "mozilla"?

It's a fucking CVS snapshot, people. It's not a one point oh release. It's not even close.

The fact that this thing is the best there is for Windows tells us more about the competition than it does about Firefox itself.

5) Yes, I know it's a standalone browser, and it's not supposed to have a built-in mail reader, news reader, and so on, but there needs to be a WebDAV client for it. It doesn't necessarily have to be Mozilla's fancy Composer, but god damn... there needs to be something... even if it's just system(3) calls to cadaver(1) in an xterm(1)... come on, anything! Why is there no WebDAV client extension yet?

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted March 22, 2005 06:51      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by greycat:
1) Extensions that work in 0.8 may not work in 1.0. In particular, the God Of All Extensions, mozex, doesn't seem to have a 0.9+ version yet.

I've never even heard of mozex. I shall read up on it if you speak so highly of it.

quote:

2) Pressing Ctrl-U in the URL bar in 0.8 acts just like a Unix user expects Ctrl-U to work -- it clears the field. Pressing Ctrl-U in the URL bar in 1.0 brings up the page source. UGH!

[Eek!] I thought I was the only one who cared about that, and just chalked it up to "oh well" and moved on.

quote:
4) Firefox 1.0's source code is a righteous fucking mess. It's not even a single build tree. It's a handful of build trees all slapped together, and each one has its own completely differet method of deciding which compiler to use, which options to pass to it, and so on. Even if you manage to convince part of the fucker to build with gcc, the rest of it still wants to build with cc. And there are platform-specific #ifdef statements that really need to become autoconf macros. And they need to not invoke ld directly in their Makefiles. And if you issue a command manually to build a single *.o file, then go back and do a "make", it might blow away your *.o file and then build it wrong (and therefore crash and die) all over again. And you can't type "make" from a subtree to build just that subtree; you have to do it from the top level and waste 20 minutes going over stuff that's already built.

I totally hear you on that one. I decided I was going to see if I could get any speed out of firefox by recompiling it from source with some nicely set CFLAGS. Half of the source ignored it, half the source pulled out a different compiler, and half the source specifically set its own CFALGS for me! (I'm not good with fractions. [Wink] ) I said screw it and went back to the .deb.

You still gotta snicker every time you build and watch that its image rendering library is called 'libpr0n'.

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suttsteve
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Icon 1 posted March 22, 2005 07:49      Profile for suttsteve   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If you ask me, Firefox is the one that's copying IE. That's just my opinion, though.
Posts: 15 | From: Springfield, GA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged


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