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Author Topic: Please get off the couch every now and then.
Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted August 21, 2004 17:48      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Why hasn't anyone started touting the open source banner wrt free software? You aren't entitled to anything, not even the things you most badly want or need.

I'm a student too. If I can't afford it, I find a way not to need it (which is why I don't have a laptop), or I save up until I can afford it (car), or, better yet, I sweet talk someone into getting it for me as a gift (yep, I find lots of climbing gear under the family Xmess tree every year). This system usually works well, the exception being the clutch for my car. :/

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
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MacGenius
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Icon 1 posted August 22, 2004 03:47      Profile for MacGenius   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by MacGenius:
Yeah, but where do think I can get $4000 to buy all the software I need? I'm a
student, for gods sake.

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What about the 'lucrative business' you're starting that's supposed to 'make $6,000 a week.'
/me smells a sugar pill spammer.... [Wink] .

Or by 6,000 'dollars' per week, did you mean HUF6,000, which is USD$29.36?

You know too much about me.
[Wink]

It's not spamming, but I'm not sure yet if it will work out or not, second, I'll have to pay to fscking tax, thrid, whatever is left I'd rather spend on hardware. I don't pirate everything - I have a copy of Dreamweaver I got the honest way. It doesn't work right under OS X. Do I give them more money, hoping that MX 2004 will work OK? Or do I just pirate, figuring that perhaps MX 2004 will be crap too?

Posts: 264 | From: Mars | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bibo
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Icon 1 posted August 22, 2004 09:30      Profile for Bibo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MacGenius:
.. I don't pirate everything - I have a copy of Dreamweaver I got the honest way. It doesn't work right under OS X. Do I give them more money, hoping that MX 2004 will work OK? Or do I just pirate, figuring that perhaps MX 2004 will be crap too?

You do know most software companies offer trial versions don't you? You can try out MX 2004 and find out how it works in OSX.

Oh and what do you know, Adobe offers tryout versions too.

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dunjamon
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Icon 1 posted August 22, 2004 09:41      Profile for dunjamon   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm not a piracy fan, if I can't afford it I go without or use freely available software

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted August 22, 2004 17:47      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hmmm.....

/me thinks back to a discussion a while back about music piracy.

It seems that software piracy is viewed in a harsher light than music piracy.

Interesting.

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csk

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Icon 1 posted August 22, 2004 18:04      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
Hmmm.....

/me thinks back to a discussion a while back about music piracy.

It seems that software piracy is viewed in a harsher light than music piracy.

Interesting.

That's because most of us work in the software industry, not the music industry. For those without an inside knowledge of the software industry, very similar accusations could be levelled at it as to the music industry (price gouging, collusion, high prices for a product which can be duplicated for a very small cost, etc).

Also, most of us (well, those of us old fogies, anyway [Wink] ) grew up taping things off the radio, so there's already a culture of music sharing, albeit in a less sophisticated form.

Should I bring up the don't say piracy, say "copyright infringement" instead debate? [Razz]

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6 weeks to go!

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted August 22, 2004 22:19      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
Hmmm.....

/me thinks back to a discussion a while back about music piracy.

It seems that software piracy is viewed in a harsher light than music piracy.

Interesting.

Canadians pay a 'tax' for each blank Cassette/CDR and the like each time we buy one....this cash is funneled back to the artists (so 'they' say) to cover piracy losses. So now apparently it makes it near impossible to charge a Canadian with music piracy because they have paid, up front for the right to pirate....pretty odd.

Let me add, I have owned a couple 'albums' on various formats , like Pink Floyd The Wall, and Dark Side, or early Kiss on 4 formats: 8 track, cassette, LP and CD....so I am pretty sure my 'licenses' are covered.

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted August 22, 2004 22:23      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I understand that we pay a tax on CD-R_Audio discs to the RIAA, though I'm not sure the same thing holds for plain old CD-Rs. Buying recordable audio discs, or whatever they call them is something that is for suckers, IMHO - there is *no* difference, and they're usually a complete ripoff. Given the cutrate prices on 'data' CD-Rs, I almost doubt there's a tax on them.

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csk

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Icon 1 posted August 22, 2004 22:41      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
I understand that we pay a tax on CD-R_Audio discs to the RIAA, though I'm not sure the same thing holds for plain old CD-Rs. Buying recordable audio discs, or whatever they call them is something that is for suckers, IMHO - there is *no* difference, and they're usually a complete ripoff. Given the cutrate prices on 'data' CD-Rs, I almost doubt there's a tax on them.

IIRC, there's basically a flag on the discs that flag them as CD-audio as opposed to CD-R. If you're using a burner in a computer there's no difference whatsoever, but if you're using a standalone CD recorder (in a hi-fi system, for example), it won't let you record to CD-Rs, only to the expensive audio versions. Could explain why those recordable versions aren't flying off the shelves, as compared to computer CD burners.

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6 weeks to go!

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted August 23, 2004 06:02      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by csk:
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
I understand that we pay a tax on CD-R_Audio discs to the RIAA, though I'm not sure the same thing holds for plain old CD-Rs. Buying recordable audio discs, or whatever they call them is something that is for suckers, IMHO - there is *no* difference, and they're usually a complete ripoff. Given the cutrate prices on 'data' CD-Rs, I almost doubt there's a tax on them.

IIRC, there's basically a flag on the discs that flag them as CD-audio as opposed to CD-R. If you're using a burner in a computer there's no difference whatsoever, but if you're using a standalone CD recorder (in a hi-fi system, for example), it won't let you record to CD-Rs, only to the expensive audio versions. Could explain why those recordable versions aren't flying off the shelves, as compared to computer CD burners.
Here's the really stupid part - I've seen many people use those discs for burning data - you'd think they'd at least pay attention to price. Thanks for shedding light on that little detail, though, csk.

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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MacGenius
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Icon 1 posted August 23, 2004 07:49      Profile for MacGenius   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Okay, now we're on about software piracy. All I can say is that I pay for something whenever I get a chance. I have $2000 worth of legal software. Is it a mortal sin to have $800 worth of not legal (especailly when most of it is Microsoft?) And I never said that piracy was cool or anything, and have *never* stolen artistic/design stuff, I always made my own (even if it wasn't as good).

Also, I haven't made any more than $300 worth of money with these softwares (so far.) so how can I afford more?

I'm still running Jaguar because I can't afford Panther.

Stealing a stupid little screenshot that can be made with the press of a button for a joke earns me a place in jail right?

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csk

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Icon 8 posted August 23, 2004 08:21      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MacGenius:
Okay, now we're on about software piracy. All I can say is that I pay for something whenever I get a chance. I have $2000 worth of legal software. Is it a mortal sin to have $800 worth of not legal (especailly when most of it is Microsoft?) And I never said that piracy was cool or anything, and have *never* stolen artistic/design stuff, I always made my own (even if it wasn't as good).

Also, I haven't made any more than $300 worth of money with these softwares (so far.) so how can I afford more?

I'm still running Jaguar because I can't afford Panther.

Stealing a stupid little screenshot that can be made with the press of a button for a joke earns me a place in jail right?

You just don't get it, do you? It doesn't matter whether you made money with the software or not. It doesn't matter whether it was developed by Microsoft or Fred's Cut Price Software. The important thing is the principle.

Now I'm sure that I wouldn't see you taking a copy of some Microsoft software from your local software store, slipping it under your coat, and attempting to walk out the door. Possibly because that action has potential consequences, ie you get caught, you get fined/sent to PMITA prison.

So stop being such a chicken-shit loser and copying someone's hard work and enjoying it gratis. Surely the concept of "if I can't afford it, I don't have it" is enough for even you to understand. If is too much, I suggest some basic economics study, especially the definition of economics itself "attempting to optimally satisfy unlimited wants with unlimited resources". Your wants are unlimited, but are constrained by your income. Therefore some of your wants are going to be unsatisfied. Deal with it.

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6 weeks to go!

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Spiderman

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Icon 1 posted August 23, 2004 08:29      Profile for Spiderman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MacGenius:
Okay, now we're on about software piracy. All I can say is that I pay for something whenever I get a chance. I have $2000 worth of legal software. Is it a mortal sin to have $800 worth of not legal (especailly when most of it is Microsoft?) And I never said that piracy was cool or anything, and have *never* stolen artistic/design stuff, I always made my own (even if it wasn't as good).

Also, I haven't made any more than $300 worth of money with these softwares (so far.) so how can I afford more?

I'm still running Jaguar because I can't afford Panther.

Stealing a stupid little screenshot that can be made with the press of a button for a joke earns me a place in jail right?

Correct [Razz]

Seriously though, it's the mentality you've shown in this post that drives most of the pirating community. (Or should that be "community of copyright infringers" [Wink] ) The "I'll buy it when I can" attitude is in my experience, one of the main driving excuses for stealing software. It's still not justification.

Now I'll confess, when I recently purchased the Powermac G4 Sawtooth, I installed Panther from the installation DVD that came with my powerbook...but only because CompUSA was closed at the time (Damn my impatience [Wink] ) so I went back and purchased it properly the next day [Big Grin] [Razz]

Edit: csk: Very nicely said

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted August 23, 2004 08:51      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Please pardon my ignorance, but I don't understand why you had to buy a second CD for your Powermac when you already owned one (albeit for your Powerbook). Is Panther a one-machine-only software?

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted August 23, 2004 08:52      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
Please pardon my ignorance, but I don't understand why you had to buy a second CD for your Powermac when you already owned one (albeit for your Powerbook). Is Panther a one-machine-only software?

Legally, yes.
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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted August 23, 2004 09:33      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
Please pardon my ignorance, but I don't understand why you had to buy a second CD for your Powermac when you already owned one (albeit for your Powerbook). Is Panther a one-machine-only software?

If you bought a laptop with Windows XP, and had a desktop with Windows 2000, would you think of using the XP CD that came with the laptop to install on the desktop? This is the same thing for Panther vs. Jag.

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MacGenius
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Icon 1 posted August 23, 2004 09:50      Profile for MacGenius   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
All right, whatever.
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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted August 23, 2004 09:58      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MacGenius:

Stealing a stupid little screenshot that can be made with the press of a button for a joke earns me a place in jail right?

It certainly does.
Someone else took the time and resources of their own to create that screenshot, and if you are unable to reproduce it yourself, then you must give credit where it's due. If I recall, the screenshots in question were of a very old Apple system, of which you didn't have access to.

Now, I think it's extremely stupid and weak of you to try and use someone else's words against me, rather than your own...but think twice about who you choose to quote/model. For instance, did you realize that uilleann is very good about giving credit where credit is due? He doesn't steal screenshots:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/telcontar/OtherStuff/Screenshots/windows.html

He also pointed me at this page for more cases of proper accreditation.

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Tut-an-Geek

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Icon 1 posted August 23, 2004 12:22      Profile for Tut-an-Geek   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
Please pardon my ignorance, but I don't understand why you had to buy a second CD for your Powermac when you already owned one (albeit for your Powerbook). Is Panther a one-machine-only software?

If you bought a laptop with Windows XP, and had a desktop with Windows 2000, would you think of using the XP CD that came with the laptop to install on the desktop? This is the same thing for Panther vs. Jag.
Not to be confused with Office (the EULA for office says that if you have a laptop and desktop you can install it on both)
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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted August 23, 2004 15:28      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
If you bought a laptop with Windows XP, and had a desktop with Windows 2000, would you think of using the XP CD that came with the laptop to install on the desktop?

Let's see.....

Old P2/233, bought in '97, running windows 98.
Old laptop, bought in '99, also running windows 98.
Damn, I can only find one set of original CDs, must have misplaced the other set. [Razz] [Wink]

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted August 24, 2004 11:42      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm still missing the point. If I own an XP install CD and I own three capable computers, where's the illegality of installing XP on the three computers from one disk. If I have an ApologetiX CD, I can play that in my car, on my computer, or on my Walkman. I can even take it to my friend's house and play it there.

Why are the rules different for software? I own it. I install it. I use it. Why must I have three separate copies for three separate computers?

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted August 24, 2004 12:01      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The problem is you don't own the software. You own a licence for the software. Read your licensing agreement for some variations occurs, but it usually allows for one working copy and one or more copy for back-up use. That means if you want to install a copy of the software on a different machine, you will have to remove it from the original machine.

Ok, this kind of things are nearly never prosecuted. You can argue you forgot it was on that other machine, that you never use it, and yes, you are only one person and can use only one copy at a time. When there are more than one person in the household, it could prove tricky to get out of it if you were to be prosecuted, though. But for the sake of fairness and respect of the software programmer(s), one should not deliberately use a software beyond its licencing.

About MacOS X, I seem to remember one was allowed to intall it on up to three computers; but I might be mistaking it for the family/small business version, which was sold at a slightly higher cost - not quite the price of two separate licence. (I tend to be sloppy with details.)

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DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted August 24, 2004 12:11      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
From the WindowsXP Home edition EULA
quote:
1. GRANT OF LICENSE. Manufacturer grants you the following

rights, provided you comply with all of the terms and

conditions of this EULA:



* Installation and Use. Except as otherwise expressly

provided in this EULA, you may install, use, access,

display and run only one (1) copy of the SOFTWARE on

the COMPUTER. The SOFTWARE may not

be used by more than one (1) processor at any one time

on the COMPUTER, unless a higher number is indicated

on the Certificate of Authenticity. You may permit a

maximum of five (5) ("Connection Maximum") computers

or other electronic devices (each a "Device") to connect

to the COMPUTER to utilize the services of the SOFTWARE

solely for File and Print services, Internet Information

services, and remote access (including connection sharing

and telephony services). The five (5) Connection Maximum

includes any indirect connections made through

"multiplexing" or other software or hardware which pools

or aggregates connections. Except as otherwise permitted

below, you may not use the Device to use, access, display

or run the SOFTWARE, the SOFTWARE's

User Interface or other executable software residing

on the COMPUTER.

Basically Microsoft is saying that you must have a copy of their operating system for each computer you have running their operating system. Meaning if you have 2 computers running WindowsXP you have to have 2 copies of the operating system to be legal, or you can buy a license from Microsoft. The price for a WinXP home license is about $50.00, half the price of the operating system.

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Spiderman

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Icon 1 posted August 24, 2004 12:16      Profile for Spiderman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
...If I have an ApologetiX CD...

Good band [Smile]

quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:
About MacOS X, I seem to remember one was allowed to intall it on up to three computers; but I might be mistaking it for the family/small business version, which was sold at a slightly higher cost - not quite the price of two separate licence. (I tend to be sloppy with details.)

You probably mean this...

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/71801/wo/ZA2O2pd9hj4k3V2N30iZMDRjZjI/3.3.0.6.10

(OS X Family Edition, 5 licenses, $200 (vs. $129 for a single license))

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ooby
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Icon 1 posted August 24, 2004 13:11      Profile for ooby     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What gets me about that is not that you need one liscence per computer, but one liscence per processor! Nowadays, it isn't uncommon for a computer to have more than one processor. Then of course, you can include all the other processors in your computer (keyboard, GPU, etc.).

Also, it says that you can't be connected to more than 5 other computers to share files. It seems to me that Microsoft has become quite the overbearing mother.

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"haven't you ever wondered if there's more to life than being really, really, rediculously good looking?"

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