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Author Topic: I met my presidential canidate
ooby
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Icon 1 posted August 12, 2004 14:18      Profile for ooby     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Until a single third party hold more than %10 of the voting population, they really shouldn't waste their time running for president. I think that their efforts should be focused in building up a large enough base to take on the big dogs and winning lower scale elections.

Who thinks that voters who are generally resigned to vote Republican or Democrat are all suddenly going to vote for the same third party candidate?

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"haven't you ever wondered if there's more to life than being really, really, rediculously good looking?"

Posts: 680 | From: South Jersey | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
TMBWITW,PB

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Icon 1 posted August 12, 2004 16:31      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
Peebs....a republican??? I never would have thought.

I'm a registered republican. I vote my conscience. And my conscience doesn't always vote for the same party.

Snaggy:
I still have to do my research on Kerry before I know if he's the kind of guy I want in the white house. I really don't know anything about him other than his party affiliation. (And what I learned from "This Land is Your Land" [crazy] )

dman:
Nader?!? Who said I was going to vote for that egotistical maniac? Besides, since I am registered as a republican even voting for Nader would actually take away a vote for Bush.

ooby:
Maybe everyone who votes for a third party isn't going to vote for the same person, but imagine the message if 25% of the votes they thought they were going to get went to any third party. Sure, it won't make a difference as far as the Electoral College is concerned, but at least the major professional politicians would have to realize that they have more than one opponent.

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"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it may be necessary from time to time to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye."
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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted August 12, 2004 16:47      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TMBWITW,PB:

dman:
Nader?!? Who said I was going to vote for that egotistical maniac? Besides, since I am registered as a republican even voting for Nader would actually take away a vote for Bush.

It doesn't matter who you vote for - that's my chant, and it holds true to any 'third-party candidate.' How does it work? Look at the 2000 election - Nader got something like 1% of the vote in areas, and it was enough to swing things in W's favor. If they had voted against Bush, they would have done something. If you vote for anyone 'else,' .../me tries to work math out in head, realizes it's 1944, and can't think straight....it just doesn't work well [Razz] .

It's really simple:
http://www.johnkerryisadouchebagbutimvotingforhimanyway.com

Just don't vote for W. I may not think Kerry's great, but I think it's really important to do *something* to change this situation, and to clearly say that I do not stand for what's going on right now.

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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Aves Corax
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Icon 1 posted August 12, 2004 17:07      Profile for Aves Corax     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Dr Cyclops:
Libertarians are'nt extreme, I think. After all we take our lead from The US Constitution, The Declaration of Independance, and the Bill of Rights. It was extreme. In the 1780's...

Oh yes we are. Libertarianism simply will not work. Ever. Why? Not because the philosophy is full of bad ideas, on the contrary, I think it's the best one out there and will continue to support it. But it's a lot like capitalism and communism. All three depend on citizens and leaders to be reasonsible and work for the common good even if it's inconvenient. If we had a pure communist society, things would fall apart, because people are too lazy to work hard when they won't get direct benefits from it. Capitalism won't work because most consumers are too apathetic to boycott companies they don't approve of (which is why Microsoft got rich and why EPA guidelines are the only thing saving America's environment). And Libertarianism won't work because people can't be bothered to take responsibility for society upon themselves when it's so much easier to give George W. all the power and blame him when something goes wrong.

Yes, yes, I know that's a very pessimistic viewpoint, and yes, I know that many people at GC aren't that lazy or stupid. But we're the exception, people, not the rule.

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Aves Corax
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Icon 1 posted August 12, 2004 17:15      Profile for Aves Corax     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
That's my basic problem with Libertarian philosophy. It seems based on the belief that you can abolish taxes, but still have the things taxes pay for.

You haven't thought that through all the way. Basically, everything the government does, with the exception of diplomacy (which it's bungled), and the use of military force in national defense (which it's misused) would be handled by private corporations. People would organize at the appropriate level (from neighborhood civic leagues to much larger regions encompassing several counties) to buy a service from, say, a company that paves roads.

That's where the system breaks down. There's always going to be a segment of the population that will refuse to shell out cash for the new road, and then expect to use the road anyway. Granted, in an anarchy we could just shoot the lazy bastards, but there will always be someone looking for a free ride.

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"Be ye not lost among precepts of order."
The Principia Discordia

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted August 12, 2004 18:41      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Aves Corax:
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
That's my basic problem with Libertarian philosophy. It seems based on the belief that you can abolish taxes, but still have the things taxes pay for.

You haven't thought that through all the way. Basically, everything the government does, with the exception of diplomacy (which it's bungled), and the use of military force in national defense (which it's misused) would be handled by private corporations. People would organize at the appropriate level (from neighborhood civic leagues to much larger regions encompassing several counties) to buy a service from, say, a company that paves roads.

No, I'm wasn't thinking about things that can be provided on a fee-for-service basis, like roads.
I was thinking about things that just plain can't be provided on a fee-for-service basis. Like the police, courts, military.

<dramatisation>
me: Help ! Police ! I've just been robbed !

cop: Certainly sir, I'd be glad to help you. May I have your credit card details please?

me: Well, no. My credit card is in my wallet, which has just been stolen.

cop: So, you have no money at all then?

me: That's right, that guy there has all my money, and he's getting away.

cop: Excuse me sir, I think that's a paying customer over there calling me.
</dramatisation>

The above may seem ridiculous to you, but it's not that long ago that fire brigades were run on a subscription basis, and subscribers had little medallions they put on their buildings to show which service they subscribed to. If there was a fire, and you didn't have the appropriate medallion on your building, the firemen would stand around and watch your property burn to the ground.

Libertarians often talk about the rules they'd have in their Utopia (very strong on property rights, including 'intellectual property') but how those rules would be enforced by a government that can't raise taxes is either not talked about at all, or brushed aside with wishfull thinking about 'voluntary contributions'.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted August 12, 2004 20:26      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
In Soviet Russia, the road paves you!

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted August 12, 2004 23:50      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
In Soviet Russia, the road paves you!

I for one welcome our new road-paving .... ah buggrit !

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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ooby
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Icon 1 posted August 13, 2004 06:21      Profile for ooby     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TMBWITW,PB:


Maybe everyone who votes for a third party isn't going to vote for the same person, but imagine the message if 25% of the votes they thought they were going to get went to any third party. Sure, it won't make a difference as far as the Electoral College is concerned, but at least the major professional politicians would have to realize that they have more than one opponent.

Let's face it, maybe one day we'll be voting for a presidential candidate. In which case, that message would be useful. But in this election, and the last, we are really voting against a candidate. This is a scenario where every party minus one doesn't want the incumbant to remain in office. Their votes are cast more to remove him from office than to bring their respective parties into the limelight.

I, for one, would love to be able to vote for a third candidate, but in the current state of politics, doing so would severely decrease the value of my vote.

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"haven't you ever wondered if there's more to life than being really, really, rediculously good looking?"

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Dr Cyclops
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Icon 1 posted August 13, 2004 09:06      Profile for Dr Cyclops   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
<thinking out loud>

Somthing I've noticed on webboards arguing about libertarianism is, the loudest opponents are not residents of the United States.

Why is this?

I always hear about europeans complaining how brutal american capitalism is. Now, growing up in the american capitalism, I have no idea what they are talking about. Our economy has winners and losers, as does life.

To me, the semi-socialism "out east" is just a fake fluffy padding on real life.

Libertarian ideas and party dogma are based on the ideas of the american revolution. Maybe Liberty means somthing else to my friends in Australia, The UK, Denmark, and elsewhere, but in the United States it was why we defied our king, which, in those days meant defing god.

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spungo
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Icon 1 posted August 13, 2004 09:48      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well, for one thing you never defied a King - that's just ongoing American propaganda. The UK was (and still is) a democracy (the monarchy are just figureheads). The person you defied was Lord North, the Prime Minister at the time.

As a clue to why many non-Americans are anti-Bush, well gee - maybe that's because American foreign policy has a habit of adversely affecting us - which is a little bit frustrating when we have absolutely no say in which smiley posh-suited oil-rich sleazebag inhabits the oval office.

With regard to winners and losers in Capatalism - the poverty I've seen in America on my travels far exceeds anything you're likely to find in the EU. We have a tendency to not let poor people shoot each other, or starve to death - I guess we're funny like that.

edit: Oh - and by the way - Libertarianism in the Western world began with 17th century Britain - with folk like John Locke, et al, and the Whigs (Liberal Party).

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Snaggy

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Icon 3 posted August 13, 2004 09:59      Profile for Snaggy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Dr Cyclops: spungo is correct. It is because what the USA does has such effect on the entire world. As illustrated by the war in Iraq.

Canadians often repeat a famous remark by former prime minister Pierre Trudeau. Living next to the US, he used to say, is like being a mouse in bed with an elephant. No matter how friendly the elephant, one is very affected by every twitch and grunt.

Luckily, we sometimes are able to slightly influence the elephant every now and then. A US government that would at least listen to others in the world community would be an enormous improvement from the current administration.

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spungo
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Icon 1 posted August 13, 2004 10:16      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
[Big Grin] That's a great quote.

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Dr Cyclops
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Icon 1 posted August 13, 2004 10:34      Profile for Dr Cyclops   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Somthing funny that happened online:

-Guy from the UK complained about US intervention around the world.

-I pointed out libertarian non-interventionist policy.

-I was accosted by guy because Hitler would'nt have been defeated without the United States.

I've kind of gotten used to being wrong, no matter what.

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When the W'rkncacnter came, Pthia was killed, and Yrro in anger, flung the W'rkncacnter into the sun. The sun burned them, but they swam on its surface.

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spungo
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Icon 1 posted August 13, 2004 10:46      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Dr Cyclops:
Somthing funny that happened online:

-Guy from the UK complained about US intervention around the world.

Well, there's intervention, and then there's intervention, isn't there? Kosovo - good idea. Sierra Leone - good idea. Iraq - well, we can all decide for ourselves.

quote:

-I pointed out libertarian non-interventionist policy.

-I was accosted by guy because Hitler would'nt have been defeated without the United States.

Oh, yes - I keep forgetting that the United States was under no threat whatsoever itself from the Nazis. The Germans, in fact, did not have plans to bomb New York, and they didn't send a u-boat or two up the Mississippi.

Answer me this, pal: what do you think would have happened next if Roosevelt failed to convince Congress that intervention in Europe was a good idea for America? Do you think the Nazis, having totally conquered Europe would have said to themselves "well, we got what we want - let's just sit back and enjoy life"?

I'm one of these rare people that believe America has the ability to be a considerable force for good in the World, as it has been before. I'm also of the belief that the US Constitution is a wondrous entity, enshrining as it does some very admirable tenets. In case you hadn't noticed my objection to your previous post was with your factual sloppiness, not your ideas.

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Shameless plug. (Please forgive me.)

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted August 13, 2004 14:31      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Dr Cyclops:
Libertarian ideas and party dogma are based on the ideas of the american revolution.

Yup, the American revolution was (at least partly) a revolt against taxes.

The tax-free society was tried for a short while, found to be unworkable, and the idea was abandoned.

Centuries later, people who'd never lived through the conditions that caused Americans to coin the verb 'to lynch' started advocating the idea again.


quote:
Originally posted by spungo:
Do you think the Nazis, having totally conquered Europe would have said to themselves "well, we got what we want - let's just sit back and enjoy life"?

Actually, a better question would have been
"Do you think Stalin, having bulldozed his way across Germany to the Atlantic, would have said "well, we got what we want - let's just sit back and enjoy life"?

<monty-python-fake-german-accent>
Not much fun in Stalingrad, no.
</monty-python-fake-german-accent>

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged


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