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Author Topic: Quelle surprise
fanboy_uk

Member # 2132

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Icon 2 posted July 06, 2004 07:49      Profile for fanboy_uk   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Apologies to all francophilles (and -phobes) for my pidgeon french there, but really...

Didn't we know this already?
Tony Blair has said Iraq's weapons of mass destruction "may never be found".

Never has my sig for this week be more ironic.

Will Bush admit the same? In an election year? At least Blair has one more year to do any fire fighting with this admission, before he stands for re-election.

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A woman walked into a cocktail bar, took one look at the drinks menu and asked the barman for a Double Entendré.
So he gave her one


Posts: 161 | From: Brighton, UK (50.8389, -00.1876) | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
drunkennewfiemidget
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 2814

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Icon 1 posted July 06, 2004 09:53      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Note how he said it, "may never be found."

He didn't admit, there fscking ARENT any.

Typical politician.

Bush is too daft to make any such statement.

Posts: 4897 | From: Cambridge, ON, Canada | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Number 2608
Mini Geek
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Icon 1 posted July 06, 2004 13:04      Profile for Number 2608     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The allied forces have been in Iraq for over a year now. Surely they have had plenty of time to plant the evidence by now?
Posts: 82 | From: Leeds, UK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
drunkennewfiemidget
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
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Icon 1 posted July 06, 2004 13:20      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Number 2608:
The allied forces have been in Iraq for over a year now. Surely they have had plenty of time to plant the evidence by now?

I've been wondering/thinking the same thing myself.. I guess we'll see. Right now George Dubya has to deal with this made-up CIA crap which has been spun in an effort to make him look like he isn't the bad guy.
Posts: 4897 | From: Cambridge, ON, Canada | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
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Icon 1 posted July 06, 2004 14:58      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
On the subject of weasel-words, I had to laugh at a quote from the Pentagon the other day.

Responding to allegations of a secret deal with the Saudis to release some prisoners from Guantanamo, the Pentagon spokes-droid said "no-one hear recalls any such deal".

Honestly, is there any phrase in the English language more damning than "I don't recall" ?

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cap'n Vic

Member # 1477

Icon 1 posted July 06, 2004 15:03      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ha! Like Clinton: "I don't recall blowing my load on a blue dressed intern"

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(!) (T) = 8-D

Posts: 5471 | From: One of the drones from sector 7G | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Callipygous
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
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Icon 1 posted July 06, 2004 15:30      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't think GWB is a bad man. I don't think he deliberately lied. I think he genuinely believed the WMDs were there for a number of reasons. (Disclaimer - Obviously much of what follows is speculation, so you may take a different view)

First Iraq was a problem that was becoming a greater and greater political irritant since the previous administration. Regime change in Iraq was also a Clinton's foreign policy objective.

Secondly the military resolution of it was almost an article of faith among the egregious Neocons who form the ideological backbone of his presidency, and also run much of the Pentagon. They believe the US as the only superpower has a historic mission to use that global dominance in this unique moment of history to spread democracy, and freedom around the world. And where better to start than the Middle East, which holds so much of the Free World's vital energy resources, and where better in the Middle East than Saddam's undeniably evil regime. The new democratic Iraq would be a beacon to all neighbouring countries, causing a collapse of their repressive regimes, just as the communist regimes collapsed in Eastern Europe, and bringing on a new dawn of democracy freedom and stability around the world. You could argue there was also perhaps a slight element of unfinished business from his Dad's presidency but I don't think GWB is that emotionally immature.

Lastly to cap it all he was understandably in a sense, emotionally unhinged by 9/11, and then got himself into an impossible political position by his knee jerk declaration of a "war" on terrorism, which of course needed military victories. All these things predisposed him and more importantly most of his key advisors to put the worst interpretation on every piece of Iraqi intelligence they received, however insubstantial. GWB did not have the wit or detachment to be able to step back and objectively assess the information presented to him.

I do not think he is a villain, but a dupe. I think he is in fact a pretty decent man, and certainly personally very charming, and he has a reputation as an expert political fixer, using that personal charm. But he does not possess either the judgement or strength of mind or character or intelligence that is necessary for the top job.

Please will anyone with a vote please get rid of him in November.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

Posts: 2922 | From: Brighton - UK | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
GMx

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
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Icon 1 posted July 06, 2004 15:39      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Two words-Chaney, Rumsfeld...well three words actually-Chaney, Rumsfeld, Haliburton.
Posts: 5848 | From: S-4, Area 51 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
fanboy_uk

Member # 2132

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Icon 1 posted July 07, 2004 00:50      Profile for fanboy_uk   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I agree with some of the sentiments in Callipygous posting, but not all.
I think he (Dubya) was/is part of the problem.

<Please note that I am using some generalisations here and welcome arguments for and against them>
Western democracies, especially the States and UK, see it as their God-given right to force democracy on the world.

I do not dispute that Saddam was evil and it really gets my goat when the pro-war people used the 'Well, should we have left him there?' or "If you're not with us you support terrorism" (Bush said that, I think), when I voice my concerns about the validity of the the war/argument/spat/fight whatever.

The original reason that our governments gave to attack Afghanistan was the war on terror, then we attack Iraq due to WMDs, despite the UN saying they had yet to find evidence of where they were. Now it appears that we attacked Iraq because Saddam was evil, and where are the WMDs?

Power has been handed back to the Iraqis (kind of) and they are able to form their own government - democratically. Unlike many western countries, their religion is part of the way their country has been governed. Will the US and UK allow a religious party to become the party of the people? Only time will tell. Don't forget Saddam was an ally to the British after WWII and helped topple the then government for us. The British and the French created the problem in the first place.

I know there is no easy answer, the troubles in the Middle East, Northern Island, the Far East, Africa even in Canada are all to do with ideological differences. Different ways of thinking, worshiping etc.

What can we do. Is sanctions the best? The innocent suffer then. Understanding differences, tolerating different cultures? Well, it would go some way to working towards a settled peace, but what happens when that culture has something that you feel is abhorrent?
Is peaceful coexistence on this planet a utopia?
Who knows? I don't.

I know I've rambled here, didn't get much sleep last night. It just annoys me when I hear another news report about fighting in Iraq and that the innocent civilians are the ones who get caught in the crossfire, I mean how come it has been a year since the war ended (has it though? - After Hitler's death Germany officially surrended. I don't remember hearing that Iraq had officially surrended to the Coalition forces) and not all the power, water and other utility services have been restored.

Any how off to re-grade someone's job description as they feel that we don't pay them enough. Kinda makes you think, I have to work an extra few hundred £s into someone's salary a year when that is more than that average Iraqi citizen gets in total a year.

/shrugs and goes to another thread

--------------------
A woman walked into a cocktail bar, took one look at the drinks menu and asked the barman for a Double Entendré.
So he gave her one


Posts: 161 | From: Brighton, UK (50.8389, -00.1876) | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Number 2608
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Icon 1 posted July 07, 2004 01:30      Profile for Number 2608     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by fanboy_uk:
Western democracies, especially the States and UK, see it as their God-given right to force democracy on the world.

Forcing a democracy onto someone, especially by blowing up parts of the recipient of said democracy, strikes me as a very undemocrating thing to do. To make matters worse the democratic model that the USA, and to a lesser state the UK, tries to introduce is heavily based around capitalism, usually so that the US can trade with them (for 'trade with' read 'exploit') - by all accounts Vietam was something of a socialist paradise before the Americans decided to remove the evil communist threat (world class health services and education? evil to the extreme). Cuba could be a very nice place if left to its own devices (OK, they do have some human rights issues, but then so does that big country next door to them). I also belive the USSR could have been a much better place if it had been left alone, rather than being forced into an arms race to protect itself from the US.


quote:
I know there is no easy answer, the troubles in the Middle East...are all to do with ideological differences.
I think that ultimately the US has a reliance on troubles in the Middle East. Whilst they are all fighting each other they are less likely to focus their attentions on any one else. Until recently the area was quite stable. Iraq was under a tight control and potentially quite strong, and it was no longer being distracted by Iran. This could have caused quite a few headaches for the US.
Posts: 82 | From: Leeds, UK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Callipygous
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
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Icon 1 posted July 07, 2004 03:15      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I disagree. The US is very concerned by the unstable situation in the Middle East, though I suspect it is far more worried about Saudi Arabia than Palestine . Part of the motivation for the Iraq adventure was to try and create some oil supply insurance should a hostile fundamentalist regime take over Saudi Arabia.

--------------------
"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

Posts: 2922 | From: Brighton - UK | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
greycat

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Icon 2 posted July 07, 2004 05:47      Profile for greycat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by fanboy_uk:
I know there is no easy answer, the troubles in the Middle East, Northern Island, the Far East, Africa even in Canada are all to do with ideological differences.

Yeah. Let's take Palestine for our first example. The Israelis believe that they have a YHWH-given right to all of the land that the Palestinians live on. The Palestinians believe that they should have a right to live their lives without apartheid walls and without having their homes and farms destroyed.

The United States has historically backed Zionism and Israel for reasons which I have never been able to fathom. (Yes, I've seen the anti-semitic conspiracy theories. I don't credit them.) Our news media have presented an incredibly one-sided view of the events, and it's always been shown in Israel's favor. It's only since the advent of the Internet that we've been able to get the other side.

Ideological differences? Uh-huh. Sure.

quote:
Now, some of you may feel that the cormorant does not play an important part in the life of the school, but I would remind you that it was presented to us by the Corporation of the town of Sudbury to commemorate Empire Day, when we try to remember the names of all those from the Sudbury area who so gallantly gave their lives to keep China British. (Monty Python's the Meaning of Life)

Posts: 1522 | From: Ohio, USA | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
CommanderShroom
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
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Icon 1 posted July 07, 2004 06:31      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
To read this thread makes me think that y'all are giving us Americans a bit too much credit.

Unfortunately, most everyone I know of has fallen into a strange dispondency regarding politics. We now have MTV telling us what to do, and I have heard kids saying that there are no reasons to vote. Many are not even familiar with Islam except that they are crazy towel heads [shake head] .

Those that do care still seem to be more concerned with WMD than they are with North Korea purposfully starving children and firing off rockets over Japan.(Those things are getting further every time) Or with our reputation around the world as loud mouth bullies.

The American culture seems to have fallen into a cycle of misinformation. And one side is really no better than the other on this. They wish to treat the world as good and bad, when it really falls into much more complicated social beliefs.

Will democracy make Iraq our friend or will it create a new Jihad movement against us trying to corrupt thier society? We have walked to another corner of the globe trying to force democracy down their collective throats. Though I can't think of a single successful democratic country that was forced into it rather than created its own movement.

On another note, I don't believe that George W is inherently evil. I do believe that he suffers from pride that allows him to deny any mistakes he makes. He also strikes me as a simple man. Not simplton, mind you. He has the right and wrong sydrome that does not work in human relations. I think through the knee-jerk reaction to 9/11, and his beliefs, has created a new, more terrible twist to our position in the structure of the world.

Do I believe that we need a Democrat in office instead? No. I believe that there needs to be a greater social change across the board. We need to remember that we no longer can make decisions that affect only the US, but can affect the entire globe. We have fallen into a cycle of of believing we deserve things rather than we need to earn the right.

Our own social programs are our own demise here. The US was created on the fact that people came here and made a life for themselves. It was not handed to them. That is what I think made our county one of the great ones originally. We didn't have a perfect system but we had a place that you could come here and, through dilligence, could make a better life. Too many people here expect a free ride and feel it is their right to get it.

Getting off the soap box, now
CommanderShroom

--------------------
Does he know our big secret?
Has one of us confessed?
'Bout the wires circuits and motors
Buried in our chest

Posts: 2465 | From: Utarrrrggggghhh!!!!!!!! | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged


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