homeGeek CultureWebstoreeCards!Forums!Joy of Tech!AY2K!webcam

The Geek Culture Forums


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Geek Culture Forums   » News, Reviews, Views!   » Your News!   » Lunatics in California: Voting at 14

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: Lunatics in California: Voting at 14
ASM65816
SuperBlabberMouth!
Member # 712

Member Rated:
2
Icon 9 posted March 10, 2004 16:08      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
http://magic-city-news.com/article_1117.shtml

Sen. John Vasconcellos wants 14 year-olds to vote in California.....

Through law, the U.S. Government indicates that 14 year-olds:
  ... are not mature enough to Use Tobacco Products.
  ... are not mature enough to Drink Alcohol Responsibly.
  ... are not mature enough to Enter into Marriage (except maybe by parental consent).
  ... are not mature enough to Operate a Motor Vehicle.

It's no surprise the state of California is in such a mess....
[Roll Eyes]

Google News Search: california vote vasconcellos

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

Posts: 1035 | From: Third rock from sun. | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
SupportGoddess

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
Member # 822

Icon 1 posted March 10, 2004 16:34      Profile for SupportGoddess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
How does this impact federal elections? I guess, If California wants to, I don't really care if they let kindergartners vote for local and state offices. But when it comes to things like presidential elections, is it even legal to let 14 year olds vote?
Posts: 1148 | From: The Digital Temple | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gibbonboy
Geek
Member # 2426

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted March 10, 2004 16:53      Profile for Gibbonboy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well, the 26th Amendment sets it at 18 or older. California is a testing ground for pseudo-socialist crap that someone wants passed nationwide. If it flies there, they spread it, if not, it's dropped and chalked up to those "nutty Californians". I don't see this getting very far.
Posts: 155 | From: A Very Small Hole in the Forest | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 1769

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted March 10, 2004 17:21      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Oh fer fscks guys, this is a joke.

Politicians produce 'discussion papers' all the time, where a range of possibilities are canvassed, most of them are expected to be shot down in flames. I'd wager the same discussion paper floated the idea of raising the voting age to 25, reintroducing the draft, and selling high-school dropouts for organ transplants.

You can start losing sleep over it if it ever actually becomes party policy.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gibbonboy
Geek
Member # 2426

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted March 10, 2004 17:57      Profile for Gibbonboy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:

the idea of raising the voting age to 25, reintroducing the draft, and selling high-school dropouts for organ transplants.

You can start losing sleep over it if it ever actually becomes party policy.

Hmm, some good ideas, but only if they raise the draft age to 25 also, and politicians have their kids sent to war first. [Wink]

--------------------
"It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here."

Posts: 155 | From: A Very Small Hole in the Forest | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Slurpy
Highlie
Member # 2050

Member Rated:
3
Icon 1 posted March 10, 2004 19:33      Profile for Slurpy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
I'd wager the same discussion paper floated the idea of raising the voting age to 25, reintroducing the draft, and selling high-school dropouts for organ transplants.

Reintroduce the draft? I guess you're familiar with Kerry's politics, then. [shake head]

Personally, I don't really feel there's a problem with having 14 year olds vote. They pay taxes. No taxation without representation, right? Seems the U.S. is already fucked, and just doesn't know it yet.

Besides, who are the fourteen year-olds going to vote for, that the twenty and thirty and forty year-olds don't? People are stupid at any age, it doesn't matter.

Posts: 692 | From: Cincinnati, OH | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
ASM65816
SuperBlabberMouth!
Member # 712

Member Rated:
2
Icon 4 posted March 10, 2004 19:50      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If BBC News covers it in their World Edition, it's probably not a joke.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/3545933.stm

Of course that would explain some of California's problems:

CA Senator: "When I proposed that $650 million Electric Cat-Warmer for Homeless Animals ... It was just a joke. I'm soooo sorry!"

[shake head]   ggrrrrr ..... I do lose sleep when I hear about some of the things that California does.......

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

Posts: 1035 | From: Third rock from sun. | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
GMx

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
Member # 1523

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted March 10, 2004 20:09      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Maybe that guy is old enough to remember Prez-First Teen President . [Big Grin]
Posts: 5848 | From: S-4, Area 51 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Brother_Maya
Geek Larva
Member # 2282

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted March 10, 2004 20:38      Profile for Brother_Maya     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Through law, the U.S. Government indicates that 14 year-olds:
† ... are not mature enough to Use Tobacco Products.
† ... are not mature enough to Drink Alcohol Responsibly.
† ... are not mature enough to Enter into Marriage (except maybe by parental consent).
† ... are not mature enough to Operate a Motor Vehicle.

I fail to see how voting has anything to do with the afore mentioned topics when half the populace of voting age handles their responsibility to vote by not voting.

--------------------
How often do you say to yourself, "I didn't do it; so of course, it didn't get done?"

Posts: 26 | From: Minneapolis Minnesota | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Dr Cyclops
Assimilated
Member # 986

Member Rated:
2
Icon 1 posted March 10, 2004 22:17      Profile for Dr Cyclops   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Damn Teenagers. Next thing you know, they'll be carrying insurance!

--------------------
When the W'rkncacnter came, Pthia was killed, and Yrro in anger, flung the W'rkncacnter into the sun. The sun burned them, but they swam on its surface.

Posts: 499 | From: Upon the slab, Unbroken. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lumina Manson
Assimilated
Member # 1868

Member Rated:
3
Icon 2 posted March 11, 2004 01:37      Profile for Lumina Manson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't even trust my dad to vote, and he's a senior citizen! He barely got registered two years ago and he regrets it because there is no point in it anymore. I registered as a sort of right of passage, I suppose. I would not trust a 14 year old to vote. Then there are going to be arguments on other prohibitions that this state has.
Now if you excuse me, I'm going to celebrate my being 18 by smoking a carton of cigs while I look at a porno magazine and scratch off my lottery ticket after I vote electronically on the way to the courthouse to get married.

--Exhausted, C.P.

--------------------
ThE CrEeP sHoW It's called therapy: go get some!

Posts: 487 | From: The rainbow room, USA (Baldwin Park) | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
greycat

Member # 945

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted March 11, 2004 06:58      Profile for greycat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gibbonboy:
Well, the 26th Amendment sets it at 18 or older.

That's not an accurate statement.

quote:
Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States, who are 18 years of age or older, to vote, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any state on account of age.
What this actually says is that no state can set the minimum voting age to be higher than 18. It doesn't stop them from setting it lower.

I know, the double negative is a bit confusing. But remember that the Constitution is primarily a list of thing the government is not allowed to do, so almost everything in it is expressed as a negation.

Posts: 1522 | From: Ohio, USA | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
MTB Babe
SuperBlabberMouth!
Member # 2297

Member Rated:
5
Icon 10 posted March 11, 2004 07:43      Profile for MTB Babe   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think letting 14 year olds vote is a great idea!! They can contribute a great deal to our political venue, with such pertinent issues as Should there be a dress code for prom and Should porn be allowed in sex ed? !
Hell, let them run for political office, I say. Who cares if they're voice hasn't quite changed yet, or they're still wearing training bras?
[crazy] [Big Grin] [crazy]

--------------------
Samir: No one in this country can ever pronounce my name right. It's not that hard: Na-ee-ana-jaad. Nayanajaad.
Michael Bolton: Yeah, well at least your name isn't Michael Bolton.

Posts: 1003 | From: State College, PA, USA | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jace Raven

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
Member # 2444

Icon 1 posted March 11, 2004 10:05      Profile for Jace Raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I dont know about giving 14 year old children the right to vote.

but this student has a good point:
quote:
"If we could vote, politicians would see us as votes, not just kids, and they would take our issues seriously," said Robert Reynolds, a student at Berkeley High School.
and mind, this isn't something that jsut popped out of some guys head. The idea has been around for a while.
Posts: 1791 | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Dave M
Single Celled Newbie
Member # 2592

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted March 11, 2004 11:30      Profile for Dave M     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
In order to fully evaluate this issue, we have to really consider what an American teenager has come to mean in terms of rights, responsibilities and maturity. It is in this gray area that the average teenager does not really know what their role in society is, hence all the rebelliousness- a testing of the limits if you will.

For starters, consider the role of the average 14-17 year old in terms of accountability for their actions. In ever regard, a person above the age of 14 is expected to be held accountable at an adult level. They are able to be tried as an adult (in most states) if they commit a crime, they are constantly making decisions that affect their entire adult life, and they are regularly doled out discipline by parents and school administratos on a level that inidicates an understanding of the adult consequences of their actions. On the other hand, however, they are not granted the priviledges that one might expect to accompany such responsibility. They are not allowed to drive (at least until 16/17), drink, smoke, control their own finances, make legal decisions or even stay out past a given hour, depending on town curfew laws. All of this stems from the idea that, while teenagers are old and responsible enough to be expected to understand the weight and consequences of decisions, they are not yet mature enough to make said responsible decisions. This is enough of a mixed message to confuse anybody.

Secondly, consider what teenagers represent as economic entitites. Despite a general dependence on their guardians to live, a vast majority of teenagers hold down part time jobs, making a largely disposable income. This not only makes them taxable citizens, whose tax dollars are controlled by the politicians that they have no control over electing, but a valuable economic commodity. Entire industries (fast food, retail, etc..) rely on this valuable workforce for unskilled and low paying jobs. Even given the political power and overall lobbying ability of the coroporate entities that they support, they still get no vote in any of the labor and industry related decisions that are made by their representatives. Despite being tax paying citizens, directly affected by such decisions, they have never been given a vote.

This question comes down to a simple catch-22. If we are to expect out nations's teenagers to act as mature, responsible adults, we must give them enough control over their own fate to make this reality. If we are to consider them as under-citizens, not yet reasonable enough to vote, we must then remove the expectations and responsibilities of adult citizenship from them. It is in this confused role that teenagers rebel so hostilly, and it is in this confused role that many teenagers get lost in the system. While the plan in CA has its pitfalls, at least it seeks to define the role of what it is to be a "teenager" to a much more satisfying degree.

Posts: 2 | From: York PA | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
MTB Babe
SuperBlabberMouth!
Member # 2297

Member Rated:
5
Icon 2 posted March 11, 2004 12:31      Profile for MTB Babe   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Oh fer fscks guys, this is a joke.

I agree with the Druid [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
Samir: No one in this country can ever pronounce my name right. It's not that hard: Na-ee-ana-jaad. Nayanajaad.
Michael Bolton: Yeah, well at least your name isn't Michael Bolton.

Posts: 1003 | From: State College, PA, USA | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 1769

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted March 11, 2004 13:45      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
btw - given that many US states have the death penalty for minors (wanna guess how many countries do that? it's a number 0 < n < 2) it seems only fair that 17 year olds have a say in choosing the government that's going to strap them to a chair and kill them.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
ASM65816
SuperBlabberMouth!
Member # 712

Member Rated:
2
Icon 4 posted March 11, 2004 14:47      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The proposal to let 14 year-olds vote is an overly simplistic effort to solve a problem ....

Its greatest flaw is that it assumes all blame goes to the public for not voting, as opposed to putting a large portion of blame on the Politicians .

Q: Why are citizens not voting?

A: (Mostly) Because of a Sense of Futility.

That is: "Regardless of Whom I Vote for, Government Will Continue Doing the Same Thing Because Politicians Serve the Special Interest Groups Which Pour Millions of Dollars into Their Pockets, instead of acting in the interests of the voters."

The way to Improve Voter Participation is for Politicians to Serve the Public Interest Instead of Serving the Biggest Contributor to Campaign Funds.

Hypothetical Situation:
  (1) Citizen has little experience in politics, and casts Vote.
  (2) After election, Winning Candidate Fails to Honor Campaign Promises.
  (3) Based on Observations, Citizen Concludes that Politicians are Corrupt, Lying Dirtbags.
  (4) Citizen chooses not to vote because of futility and to avoid creating the illusion that his vote indicates Trust or Approval of the candidate.

Under these conditions, if a Citizen votes at Age 10, he will Give-up on Voting by Age 12. (At which point, politicians may encourage voting at Age 6.)

Another Answer that is Given for Not Voting:
  Elections are Boring.

Well, much like Balancing Your Checkbook -- It May Be Boring, but it is Necessary.

Quote: One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -- Plato

In my opinion, the Effective and Ethical Solution is for Politicians to Behave with Integrity, Wisdom, Responsibility, and Concern for the Welfare of the Citizens and the State, as opposed to stuffing their own pockets and giving kick-backs to their buddies.

[Roll Eyes] .... fat chance that'll happen ...... (pardon the cynicism)

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

Posts: 1035 | From: Third rock from sun. | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gibbonboy
Geek
Member # 2426

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted March 11, 2004 18:03      Profile for Gibbonboy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I always participate in the process. If there's no one I want to vote for (common occurrence), I just turn in a blank ballot.

I don't know who said it- "The primary purpose of government is entertainment" Anything else that you expect from a politician is hopeless.

So sit back, enjoy the ride, and keep your head and arms inside the mixer at all times.

--------------------
"It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here."

Posts: 155 | From: A Very Small Hole in the Forest | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Slurpy
Highlie
Member # 2050

Member Rated:
3
Icon 1 posted March 13, 2004 00:49      Profile for Slurpy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Q: Why are citizens not voting?
A: Because they're too damned lazy.

Don't forget that little part.

--------------------
I must first reveal my personal bias in this discussion, since I worship at the 'First Church of PDF Really Sucks.'
-Bruce Tognazzini
http://thegeekgroup.org
Geek ID# 1162

Posts: 692 | From: Cincinnati, OH | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
TMBWITW,PB

Member # 1734

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted March 13, 2004 16:18      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
*tongue-in-cheek* But if we made voting easy then all the poor people would vote, and we can't do anything that would damage the power of rich people. [Razz]

--------------------
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it may be necessary from time to time to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye."
óMiss Piggy

Posts: 4010 | From: my couch | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 1769

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted March 13, 2004 18:28      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TMBWITW,PB:
*tongue-in-cheek* But if we made voting easy then all the poor people would vote, and we can't do anything that would damage the power of rich people. [Razz]

nah, here in oz we have compulsory voting, so the turn-out is close to 100%, and we still get the same pack of bastards you septics get.

Personally, I'm in favour of government by lottery. Choose 100 people at random, give them a nice salary for the couple of years they'll be in government, but not enough that they'll be rich when they're finished, and have a severe penalty for attempted bribery. That way you'll actually get a government that cares about ordinary people.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
ASM65816
SuperBlabberMouth!
Member # 712

Member Rated:
2
Icon 1 posted March 13, 2004 18:45      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Most Philosophers regarded "Democracy" as a Bad Thing.

The U.S. is a Republic -- as in "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America; and to the Republic for which it stands....."

(exerpt)

WHY DEMOCRACIES FAIL

    A Democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of Government. It can only exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largess out of the public treasury. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that Democracy always collapses over a loose fiscal policy, always to be followed by a Dictatorship.(Written by Professor Alexander Fraser Tytler, nearly two centuries ago while our thirteen original states were still colonies of Great Britain. At the time he was writing of the decline and fall of the Athenian Republic over two thousand years before.

Found at: http://www.chrononhotonthologos.com/lawnotes/repvdem.htm

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

Posts: 1035 | From: Third rock from sun. | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
smallerdemon
Geek
Member # 635

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted March 13, 2004 20:33      Profile for smallerdemon   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
*heh* I love living here. Just the presence of California annoys the very type of people that annoy me. I love that. From all the crazy things we supposedly do, you'd think we wouldn't have any form of civilized life out here. Turns out, living in California is pretty much like living anywhere else in the US, except for the lack of concern about the destination of your soul, penis, or vagina. Other than that, we get up, we go to work, we go home, we go to bed, we start over.

I've often wondered if California, being the last of the westernized part of the entire world that the people who end up here feel like they are still living on the last of the frontier.

--------------------
That's using your brainium!

Posts: 214 | From: San Francisco | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged
ASM65816
SuperBlabberMouth!
Member # 712

Member Rated:
2
Icon 4 posted March 15, 2004 10:00      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
BTW: Draining the Public Treasury Does Not Require Bad Intentions

Usually people don't think of letting others die as good.

Let's say that population is evenly distributed at every age and that all working adults earn $30000 per year.

No one lives past age 80.
Age 66-80 (pop. 15): Retired - Need $10000 per year, Cost of Living.
Age 19-65 (pop. 47): Working Adults - Support Youth and Pay Taxes.
Age 1 -18 (pop. 18): Youth - No Significant Income.

To Support the Retired population, Working Adults pay 11% of their Gross Income in Taxes.

If Retired people live to Age 88 (pop. 23), Working Adults must pay 16% of their Gross Income in Taxes, which is essentially a 50% Increase in Taxes.

To make matters worse, Factor in Added Medical Costs. Let's say at Age 81 and above that an Additional $5000 per year are required for Medical Services.

If Retired people live to Age 85 (pop. 20), Working Adults must pay 16% of their Gross Income in Taxes.

If Retired people live to Age 90 (pop. 25), Working Adults must pay 21% of their Gross Income in Taxes.

People are not immortal, and as much as we may not like dying, it is not Economically Feasible to keep extending our lives just because we have the technology.

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

Posts: 1035 | From: Third rock from sun. | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged


All times are Eastern Time  
Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | Geek Culture Home Page

© 2015 Geek Culture

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.4.0



homeGeek CultureWebstoreeCards!Forums!Joy of Tech!AY2K!webcam