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Author Topic: So, how 'bout those weapons of mass destruction?
csk

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Icon 1 posted November 30, 2003 23:05      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
C'mon, let's get real here. The chance that he just happened to inconveniently die a natural death at the same time he was being interrogated has got to be pretty low indeed. Wouldn't be the first time that someone has pushed a little harder than they wanted to in trying to extract useful information.

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6 weeks to go!

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted November 30, 2003 23:21      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
News: Major General Abed Hamed Mowhoush, a former air defence commander, died on Wednesday morning....

During 'interrogation', lets not omit that 'minor detail'.

Probably the worst torture that he received was having to watch "Joe Millionaire" and other American television programs.

I'm sure if they'd been that cruel, he'd have cracked weeks ago.

Having a General is a Super-Valuable Information Source, and the fastest way that he would be coerced would probably be: "Your family lives in million dollar mansions. They no longer have Saddam's protection. We'll give your entire family amnesty if you can give us information against Saddam."

And yet, not a peep about the huge stockpile of WMDs, from him or any of the thousands of other people in similar positions. Strange.

Keeping him alive would be a high priority. Imagine finding "a new lead" and having a hundred questions 12 months after finishing initial interrogation..... You don't get many answers from dead men, so make sure important people can answer questions (ie. keep them alive).

I never claimed they deliberately killed him, just that he'd been tortured to death. I'm sure they'd refer that he was alive and talking.

Personally, the Weather Channel is the only TV I watch regularly. I'm sure that some TV is so bad that any intelligent person would vomit to death if unable to escape the TV experience.

Which, no doubt, is how you came to be so sure the WMDs exist, you can see them in the weather maps.

You fancy yourself as a defender of Human Rights, that's one of your excuses for supporting the war, right?

What about the Geneva Convention then?

The guy was a prisoner of war, the only information he's required to give is his name, rank, and serial number.
And yet, a month and a half after his capture, he dies during 'interrogation'.
How long does it take to ask 3 simple questions?
They already knew the answers to 2 or them.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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littlefish
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Icon 1 posted December 01, 2003 02:25      Profile for littlefish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You are getting confused- the geneva convention doesn't apply here. It only covers soldiers and civilians. These are those pesky "illegal combatants" - They decided not to be civilians or soliders so that they could avoid the worringly socialist geneva convention.
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greycat

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Icon 1 posted December 01, 2003 06:56      Profile for greycat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
Here's a Stupid Question:

Instead of looking for weapons of mass destruction (WMD), why doesn't the US military find all 650,000 tons of ammunition, mines, rocket-propelled grenades, and anti-aircraft missles so that insurgents can't attack US forces?

Here's a Stupider Question:

Instead of running around in a foreign country on the other side of the world, shooting people, and getting shot at, why don't we just bring the troops home?

Didn't we already win?

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angryjungman

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Icon 1 posted December 01, 2003 08:07      Profile for angryjungman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by greycat:
why don't we just bring the troops home?

Didn't we already win?

Ah yes, but we haven't created a better Iraq yet.

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Meh.

Posts: 633 | From: princeton, nj | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted December 01, 2003 08:28      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by greycat:
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
Here's a Stupid Question:

Instead of looking for weapons of mass destruction (WMD), why doesn't the US military find all 650,000 tons of ammunition, mines, rocket-propelled grenades, and anti-aircraft missles so that insurgents can't attack US forces?

Here's a Stupider Question:

Instead of running around in a foreign country on the other side of the world, shooting people, and getting shot at, why don't we just bring the troops home?

Didn't we already win?

Win what?

Some brown people fly planes into some buildings, so we are going to drop bombs on some other brown people....Yea! We win!

Gimmie a fucking break.

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(!) (T) = 8-D

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supergoo

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Icon 1 posted December 02, 2003 21:55      Profile for supergoo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
sort of off topic, but i found this funny:

Cannot find Weapons of Mass Destruction

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xaxnar
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Icon 1 posted December 04, 2003 18:13      Profile for xaxnar     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Uh guys, the weapons of mass destruction have been found.

Just not in Iraq.

The story is here, and it's not pretty. There have been follow-up reports in the blog sphere that there may be other people linked to this guy, and more bombs. Can you imagine what one of those might have done in a Walmart on Black Friday?

This story has been largely buried by the press. It would seem it's far more important we concentrate on Michael Jackson and Paris Hilton than the fact that we have non-muslim homegrown terrorists right here in the U.S. - and our wonderful Fatherland Security types only caught them by chance. Resources here at home continue to be seriously underfunded. Do you really feel safer now?

Before 911, there was Oklahoma City and Tim McVeigh. After 911....

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted December 04, 2003 19:06      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by csk:
C'mon, let's get real here. The chance that he just happened to inconveniently die a natural death at the same time he was being interrogated has got to be pretty low indeed.

Hearts can give any time, and not necessarily with the standard symptoms either. In fact, most of the heart attacks that result in death are the ones that come fast, silent, and sudden. My first code was a guy who dropped dead in a locker room. No warning or nothing, he just dropped and started breathing agonally. The witnesses called it in as a seizure. When we arrived on scene, he was on his back, his face was the color of a new pair of jean (and I am not exagerrating), the guys who called us were pounding on his chest, and he was shaking hands with St. Peter. We shoved a tube down his throat and beat the crap out of him. Chest compressions, electric shocks, all those fun drugs they shoot on ER, and he didn't come back.

My point is, it could very well have been bad luck. However, heart attacks are most common in the evening, after a heavy meal, after heavy exercise, or when under severe stress. If the general was a male over 40, he was already risking a heart attack, especially if he smoked. Even without physical torture or the use of truth serums, being grilled by enemy captors has to be rough.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted December 04, 2003 19:34      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by xaxnar:
Uh guys, the weapons of mass destruction have been found.

Just not in Iraq.

The story is here, and it's not pretty. There have been follow-up reports in the blog sphere that there may be other people linked to this guy, and more bombs. Can you imagine what one of those might have done in a Walmart on Black Friday?


So why doesn't Bush carpet bomb all of Texas, to liberate those poor people????
[Roll Eyes]

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted December 05, 2003 01:21      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
My point is, it could very well have been bad luck. However, heart attacks are most common in the evening, after a heavy meal, after heavy exercise, or when under severe stress.

Or after 6 weeks in a cramped, hot cage with a hood over your head, deprived of sleep, kept very thirsty, and with the occasional electric shock to the genitals.

I'd say his worst bit of luck was being captured.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted December 05, 2003 07:06      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Um, TFD, my point was that the fact he died isn't evidence he was torutured. Not saying he wasn't, not saying he was. Just saying we're leaping to conclusions.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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spungo
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Icon 1 posted December 05, 2003 07:24      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
Um, TFD, my point was that the fact he died isn't evidence he was torutured. Not saying he wasn't, not saying he was. Just saying we're leaping to conclusions.

Quite. It could merely have been the stress of interrogation alone, which depending on how you look at may indicate culpability.

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Shameless plug. (Please forgive me.)

Posts: 6529 | From: Noba Scoba | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted December 05, 2003 13:30      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
Um, TFD, my point was that the fact he died isn't evidence he was torutured. Not saying he wasn't, not saying he was. Just saying we're leaping to conclusions.

[edit: my original wording sounded like I was having a go at Xanthine. This was not my intent, so I've re-worked it a bit]

Yes, I got that.
I just don't believe we can allow the "bad luck" defence to apply in this case.

My point was this, with the exception of the electric shocks, all of the other mistreatment I mentioned is what we know they're doing to prisoners in Guantanamo. These are all 'stress' factors that could lead to heart attack, and they're all part of interrogation that is explicitly forbidden by the Geneva Convention.

If I broke into someones Texas house at gunpoint, put a bag over his head, tied him up, and subjected him to that kind of treatment for 6 weeks until he died, I don't think I'd have any luck convincing a jury he'd died of 'natural causes'. I also don't believe Governor GWB would have had any hesitation in signing my death-warrant.

Sure, he might have died anyway, just like he might have been run over by a bus if the war had never happened, we'll never know for sure, but that doesn't let the US military off the moral hook on this one. They subjected a prisoner of war to illegal interrogation, they used illegal methods during that interrogation, and he died of a condition which those illegal methods would have at least contributed to.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted December 06, 2003 18:49      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
According to this story the US military will be staying on in Iraq indefinitely.

Mr Bremer must be psychic, the process for choosing the new 'democratic' government has not even been decided yet, but he already knows that this new government will be pro-US, and will invite the US to stay on and defend Iraq from the Iraqis.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Xanthine

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Icon 9 posted December 06, 2003 19:02      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
my shitty day just got shittier.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted December 13, 2003 14:19      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Some more news of the 'bad luck' that can befall guests of the US military.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted January 12, 2005 10:54      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Apparently there never were any WMDs [shake head]

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(!) (T) = 8-D

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted January 14, 2005 14:35      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
At least it's comforting to know that the US has brought freedom and the rule of law to Iraq.

quote:

"Staff Sergeant Jonathan J Alban-Cardenas was convicted on one count of murder and one count of conspiracy to commit murder," a military statement said.

The soldier, the second to be court martialled over the case, was sentenced to a "one year confinement, reduction to the lowest pay grade and a bad conduct discharge".

One years imprisonment for murdering an innocent teenager, that's the way to teach those stupid towel-heads about Truth, Justice, and The American Way.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10668 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged


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