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Author Topic: Geek men and feminists
GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2007 13:10      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
boo wrote:
Are you telling me you're not a cultured geek? [Razz]

Actually, I don't think I would ever apply that term to myself. Why limit myself to things seen as cultured, such as opera, when I can also enjoy things which are not like the Rocky Horror Picture Show?

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Worst. Celibate. Ever.

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boo
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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2007 13:35      Profile for boo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:

The general consensus is that the sterotypical girlie things, such as shaving legs, applying make-up, styling your hair, and submitting to fashion trends are not enforced by men, encouraged by men, nor done for the pleasure of men. The pressure is really coming from othr women.

I agree to an extent. I do think that some women dress for other women. But I also absolutely believe that some dress for men (this may not always be a conscious effort, just something they do based on "feedback.") And some do what they want to please themselves. I would say if I do any, it's the second and third. I don't really care what other women think of the way I look or dress. (I don't mean that in a, "I don't give a DAMN what SHE thinks" sort of way. I just mean it doesn't really occur to me to wonder if my girlfriends will like the way I'm dressing) I dress for myself, mostly, but I am acutely aware of what benefits I get from looking attractive to men, as well. Most of my experiences based on such are basically positive, though there have definitely been negative, as well.

quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
Some food for thought...
I started to stand up for my own abilities and right to be held to the same standard. And then I started getting nudgd into line by....wait for it...the ranking dojo women. Not the men. The women. They liked their double-standard. They were enforcing their double-standard.

That's very unfortunate. Your ability to defend yourself might actually save your life some day. It's not appropriate that that ability be curtailed simply because you're a woman. In fact, because you're a woman, they should make sure you get the best training possible.
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:

One final qustion: what and who defines what is masculine and feminine, anyway?

I think it's fairly self evident. But is that based on reality or our human definitions of the two? Obviously, much of it is societal. But "why" did society adopt the standards that it has?

To me, masculine is the opposite of feminine.
[Big Grin] Masculine is (in general, not always) bigger, stronger, hairier, less emotional, more logical, sexually driven, goal oriented, problem solving. Men are often driven by competition, a desire to excel and provide, ascend over other men, etc.

Feminine is, smaller, softer, physically weaker, more emotional, less logical, nurturing, compassionate. However, women (in general) are better at enduring sustained pain, more patient, dealing in compromise and are usually somewhat more interested in civilities.

Men tend to think more with their heads and their dicks, women with their hearts. Stereotypical I know, but often, stereotypes exist because they are based in truth.

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hecateluna
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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2007 14:13      Profile for hecateluna     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
One final qustion: what and who defines what is masculine and feminine, anyway? Beyond, the standard biological traits, that is.

I've been thinking about that some recently. The short answer of course is that I've got no idea. One of my best friends has recently, uh, decided that she (formerly he) is going to have a sex change. Beyond the initial "wait... what????", I'm just confused. I guess I never really thought about it, but the whole identifying as female thing (aside from going "look, I have breasts... neat!") never really happened for me. I mean, I notice that people treat me differently than they treat the kinds of people who don't have breasts, sometimes, and I care about that, but it's not like it's important to who I am that I happen to be a woman. (How I've been socially conditioned because I happen to be a woman, obviously, is more important.) But, apparently there's something important and different, or people wouldn't go through dangerous elective surgery to change it.

I don't usually wear makeup and bras and other girly things (once in awhile, I do, for fun), but I will when I teach (which happens for the first time in two weeks). Why? I'm not sure first year CS students which happen to be mostly male will concentrate very well on, you know, course material if I'm wearing a shirt that makes my piercings obvious. (I may be underestimating them, of course.) Beyond that, I don't think the people in charge of my department (which also happen to be male) would be particularly happy if I didn't conform to some social norm of "respectable" while they're paying me to teach poor impressionable little boys. I mean freshmen.

Also, it's true that women do bad things to each other... but there's an argument to be made that most (definitely not all--but most) of the television executives (and casters), advertisers, fashion designers and executives, magazine editors who get to strongly influence what we view as beauty, are male. I'm definitely NOT saying they're sitting in their little (err, big) offices going "Tee hee hee, we will SUBJUGATE those damn women by MAKING them fight amongst each other over who can look more like this outrageously 'perfect' image!!!" It's just that they're constantly throwing images at us of their idea of beauty, regardless of any intent. (I doubt seriously that this is good for anyone, male or female.)

Also, I should say, now that I'm married, I care a heck of a lot less about conforming to any of those kinds of standards, and I find myself actually not caring what people think about me (uh, about whether I'm pretty or not anyway). It may be because I have a nice supportive person who makes me more secure... but it also seems like it must be something to do with having wanted to impress men before.


Edited to add: Uhm. Who? Individuals, with tons of influence from the general consensus of society, whatever "society" is.

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ScholasticSpastic
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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2007 15:00      Profile for ScholasticSpastic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Masculine and feminine are crap.

Male and female (and those who occupy the intermediate portions of the spectrum) are real. I have a penis. I am male. I am not required to do any special things as a result of having a penis. I suppose the only truly penis-mediated behavior I engage in is female-proximity-induced stupidity. Of course, not everyone with a penis get's stupid around females. I've made a few men stupid, myself. (I'm a hot, sexy slice of gay-bait, baby!)

The same can be said for vaginas. Pink, frilly clothing and barbies and cooking and not liking rolling in mud is a bunch of crap. I fully expect any woman I mate with to be equally repulsed by pink clothing and willing to roll around in the mud with me.

--------------------
"As in repeating a well-known song, so in instincts, one action follows another by a sort of rhythm; if a person be interrupted in a song, or in repeating anything by rote, he is generally forced to go back to recover the habitual train of thought..." (Darwin, The Origin of Species)

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boo
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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2007 16:17      Profile for boo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by hecateluna:
there's an argument to be made that most (definitely not all--but most) of the television executives (and casters), advertisers, fashion designers and executives, magazine editors who get to strongly influence what we view as beauty, are male.

I agree. And I was shocked by who I saw specifically in the "fashion, design and magazine world." I had no idea until recently, but I watched a tv program about just this field. Everything from print lay outs to runway shows to commercials, etc. was covered. Not only were all the people (at least, in this show) making all the decisions male, they were gay. I don't mean men who happened to be homosexual. I mean, flaming gay men. The mincing, swishing sort of gay. While most of the female models were quite young, these men were often middle aged or beyond.

It really took me aback and made me think a lot about the whole subject. I had to stop because it hurt my brain. [Big Grin] I can't figure out how these men are literally, in control of what society is spoon fed in regards to fashion, design, beauty, etc. It's freaky. It's not even close to the reality that the average person lives. It makes no sense to me. I don't know how they go there, how they got the power, who gave it to them, WHY it was given to them. I have no idea. None of it makes any sense to me.

quote:
Originally posted by hecateluna:
Also, I should say, now that I'm married, I care a heck of a lot less about conforming to any of those kinds of standards,

To clarify, do you mean you care less about tying to look "girly" or "attractive?" And if that is what you mean, how does your husband feel about that?
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boo
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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2007 16:28      Profile for boo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
As always, it's interesting to hear different perspectives and opinions.

quote:
Originally posted by ScholasticSpastic:
Masculine and feminine are crap.

I disagree. [Smile] I love the differences, personally.
quote:
Originally posted by ScholasticSpastic:

I suppose the only truly penis-mediated behavior I engage in is female-proximity-induced stupidity.

And why do you suppose that is if masculinity and femininity are crap? Since the vast majority of people are heterosexual, that means most of us are attracted to the opposite sex. Why? It can't all be about the body parts. There has to be some attraction there. I submit it's the very qualities about the opposite sex that differ from you, that attracts you.
quote:
Originally posted by ScholasticSpastic:

Of course, not everyone with a penis get's stupid around females.

Meh. Most do. [Big Grin]
quote:
Originally posted by ScholasticSpastic:

The same can be said for vaginas. Pink, frilly clothing and barbies and cooking and not liking rolling in mud is a bunch of crap. I fully expect any woman I mate with to be equally repulsed by pink clothing and willing to roll around in the mud with me.

So would you say you are biased against "traditional" gender roles then?
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boo
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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2007 16:29      Profile for boo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
oops
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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2007 16:56      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
boo wrote:
I can't figure out how these men are literally, in control of what society is spoon fed in regards to fashion, design, beauty, etc. It's freaky. It's not even close to the reality that the average person lives. It makes no sense to me. I don't know how they go there, how they got the power, who gave it to them, WHY it was given to them. I have no idea. None of it makes any sense to me.

It wasn't given to them... those flaming gay men who are overly obsessed with feminine appearance are the ones who built today's fashion industry in the first place.

--------------------
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ScholasticSpastic
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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2007 17:15      Profile for ScholasticSpastic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ScholasticSpastic:

I suppose the only truly penis-mediated behavior I engage in is female-proximity-induced stupidity.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And why do you suppose that is if masculinity and femininity are crap? Since the vast majority of people are heterosexual, that means most of us are attracted to the opposite sex. Why? It can't all be about the body parts. There has to be some attraction there. I submit it's the very qualities about the opposite sex that differ from you, that attracts you.

Because male =/= masculine and female =/= feminine. I've been fortunate enough to know a number of very feminine men, many of which are now women. With preopperative hormone therapy, a transexual will acquire most if not all of the secondary sexual traits common to women. I am not, however, attracted to these transitional pre-women. Why not? Penises. Don't like 'em. It's too bad, too, because I'd have a great time if I could go for penises.

Gender roles are plastic. Sex is somewhat less so. The women I'm attracted tend to depart somewhat from the traditional gender role. I don't have a type and I don't always date women who aren't traditionally feminine. Femininity isn't a selling point for me, though. I like a good mind, a portable body (willingness to run up mountains with me), and an outspoken manner. Graciousness is good, too, but I grew up in a much more gender-plastic environment, so graciousness is not a feminine trait IMO- it's just the way everyone should be.

--------------------
"As in repeating a well-known song, so in instincts, one action follows another by a sort of rhythm; if a person be interrupted in a song, or in repeating anything by rote, he is generally forced to go back to recover the habitual train of thought..." (Darwin, The Origin of Species)

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2007 17:22      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The legislative wasn't about legal legislation it was about Kantian morals.

Hecta, it's the same thing. You're actually saying that it is acceptable to exclude all men from some gyms because some men are pigs, harass and assult women. What you are missing is that women also assult and objectify men. Men often don't complain about it because of stigmas in our society that women are weaker than men, that men shouldn't hit a girl even in self defence and that if a man is beaten up or raped by a women that it couldn't have happened or that he's a "weak." Your also forgetting that physcological effects are much larger than physical one (even in the case of physical assult). Not enough attention is paid "reverse" discrimination. There are lots of orginizations that don't let in minorities or focous on the goals of the majority and they are seen as evil instituitions; but when the reverse happens, it's somehow justified.

Recently, a school for the non-hearing lost it's non-hearing president, and the hearing vice president who has all the qualifications took on the role as acting-president while they were looking for a permanent president. The non-hearing community decented, and the board voted that he be fired from the post and a non-hearing acting-president be instated. The man was fired, and sued the school. The courts upheld the school's firing, and a non-hearing acting-president was appointed while they search for the right person to take the job on indefinitely. If it were a school for white children, and a racial minority was fired for being a racial minority, the outcry would be unstoppable and the laws would not allow the firing because of "protected class" laws.

I respect the right of private business owner to run his business in anyway he see fit. I also respect the meaning, intent, and reasons for civil rights legislation regarding equality of opportunity. Which one SHOULD win, I don't know. But, whichever society choses to win this debate should be applied universally.

While your case isn't about legalities, you have the same type of hypocracy in your arguments that courts did in the case of this school. You're making prejudgments about men in the gym setting, that, while being different judgments (and worse ones about the nature of men), are of the same type that your sister's boyfriend had about women in gaming. You can't have your cake, and eat it too.

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boo
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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2007 17:37      Profile for boo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
boo wrote:
I can't figure out how these men are literally, in control of what society is spoon fed in regards to fashion, design, beauty, etc. It's freaky. It's not even close to the reality that the average person lives. It makes no sense to me. I don't know how they go there, how they got the power, who gave it to them, WHY it was given to them. I have no idea. None of it makes any sense to me.

It wasn't given to them... those flaming gay men who are overly obsessed with feminine appearance are the ones who built today's fashion industry in the first place.

But how and why? I mean, why did anybody pay attention to what they had to say or design? Why didn't the people in power to make the decisions, finance stuff, etc. go with people who were less extreme? Just like with models, as a for instance. They say a model has to be at least 5'10" Well, somebody at sometime had to decide that. But how in the world did they come up with that figure as opposed to the 5'4" that is the average height of American women? Economics would suggest you'd do better catering to the masses then appealing to a tiny percentage of women. I don't know how many American women are 5'10" or taller, but it's got to be a fairly slim margin.

And that's just one example.

I do have a bit of a theory but I don't have it fleshed out and am not motivated to think about it any further. But essentially it has something to do with these men consciously or subconsciously disdaining women for being something they are not, or would prefer to be, and that playing it out in their sadistic views of what models and women should be.

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hecateluna
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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2007 17:40      Profile for hecateluna     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by boo:
quote:
Originally posted by hecateluna:
Also, I should say, now that I'm married, I care a heck of a lot less about conforming to any of those kinds of standards,

To clarify, do you mean you care less about tying to look "girly" or "attractive?" And if that is what you mean, how does your husband feel about that?
Well, I mean, I do try to look in a way that I think is "attractive," which means my clothes fit properly and I shower, wash my hair, dry it, and run a brush through it. I don't worry much about what other people think, though. My top priority on clothes is comfort. Also, I've stopped dieting constantly. (I still work out... uh, sometimes, but that's mostly because I'd like to continue to be healthy.) I only wear makeup for very, very special occasions. I guess that does mean I'm not trying as hard to be "girly" or "attractive." Honestly, I don't think my husband has noticed. If he really wants me to spend our money on making myself look nice, instead of on shiny games, it wouldn't really bother me, though. [Smile] (If he noticed and it bothered him, I'm pretty sure he would have mentioned it--and I did used to annoy him once in awhile deciding what to wear or putting on makeup or something, when he wanted to leave.)

Anyway, yeah, sure, lots of gay men in fashion (though there are a surprising number of straight men in fashion as well)... but I think the people who have more direct control over the average American's idea of "beauty" are TV and movie execs/producers/casters/makeup artists/directors/etc. Who have a tendency to be straight men (with the possible exceptions of makeup artists, to be completely stereotypical but probably accurate). (They are influenced by fashion, I would assume, though.)

Edited to add: Also, I don't know much about fashion history (and, um, I am totally not motivated to research the topic, heh), but I seriously doubt that when the modern fashion industry started (the 50s???), the designers (and everyone else) were gay at all, much less... uh, ultra-femme. They're still not all (I might even suspect not most--but again, I really don't want to do that kind of research) like that. It's been a slow evolution to that, I would imagine.

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boo
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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2007 17:42      Profile for boo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ScholasticSpastic:
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ScholasticSpastic:

I suppose the only truly penis-mediated behavior I engage in is female-proximity-induced stupidity.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And why do you suppose that is if masculinity and femininity are crap? Since the vast majority of people are heterosexual, that means most of us are attracted to the opposite sex. Why? It can't all be about the body parts. There has to be some attraction there. I submit it's the very qualities about the opposite sex that differ from you, that attracts you.

I've been fortunate enough to know a number of very feminine men, many of which are now women.
You know many transexual men? [Eek!] I don't even know one. Nor any transexual women.
quote:
Originally posted by ScholasticSpastic:

With preopperative hormone therapy, a transexual will acquire most if not all of the secondary sexual traits common to women. I am not, however, attracted to these transitional pre-women. Why not?

Probably because they are huge, have broad shoulders, adam's apples? I'm not being flippant. I can easily see why you wouldn't be attracted to them. They usually still look like men, if only due to their size and gigantic feet, even if they now have breasts.
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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2007 17:46      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
GameMaster wrote:
Your also forgetting that physcological effects are much larger than physical one (even in the case of physical assult).

Would you care to cite your source for that conclusion, because it sounds very much like you just said "women can handle being beated and raped better than men" which is the most offensive thing I've seen on these forums in a very long time.

--------------------
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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2007 18:08      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Fashion and entertainment are about selling an image, a fantasy of who/what you could be. It is glorified, grown-up make-believe, and it's currently caught in a vicious cycle. They sell us this shit because we buy it; we buy it because that's what's being offered and we've allowed ourselves to believe that what they're offering is what we really want. We as a society, both at the consumer and producer levels, fell into this rut somehow (Marilyn Monroe was size 12, people - there was a time when women were supposed to have curves), and we'll find a way out.

We as women could speed that process along by simply not buying the image anymore, but I guess that's hard. I can only guess though, as I grew up without television and glamour magazines were frowned on in my parents' house. Furthermore, my mother didn't wear make-up (these things get passed down). So there was a lot of social conditioning I missed. I did watch movies though, and listen to the radio. And use the internet when that hit the household scene. To this day, I do not own a TV, and I find the glamour magazines rather shallow and repetitive. So I'm still missing out on a lot of social conditioning, and since I haven't bought the image it's probably a lot easier for me to get on a soap box and cry out "If you don't like it then stop buying it!" than it is for others.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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nerdwithnofriends
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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2007 18:16      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
Fashion and entertainment are about selling an image, a fantasy of who/what you could be. It is glorified, grown-up make-believe, and it's currently caught in a vicious cycle. They sell us this shit because we buy it; we buy it because that's what's being offered and we've allowed ourselves to believe that what they're offering is what we really want. We as a society, both at the consumer and producer levels, fell into this rut somehow (Marilyn Monroe was size 12, people - there was a time when women were supposed to have curves), and we'll find a way out.

We as women could speed that process along by simply not buying the image anymore, but I guess that's hard. I can only guess though, as I grew up without television and glamour magazines were frowned on in my parents' house. Furthermore, my mother didn't wear make-up (these things get passed down). So there was a lot of social conditioning I missed. I did watch movies though, and listen to the radio. And use the internet when that hit the household scene. To this day, I do not own a TV, and I find the glamour magazines rather shallow and repetitive. So I'm still missing out on a lot of social conditioning, and since I haven't bought the image it's probably a lot easier for me to get on a soap box and cry out "If you don't like it then stop buying it!" than it is for others.

Amen. Maybe as a man I'm not qualified to say this, but ladies, if you're weak-minded enough to feel guilty that you don't look like models on whom hundreds of thousands of dollars are spent to look amazing, maybe you deserve to be caught in a vicious cycle.


Just ignore it! I think the overwhelming message from guys here is that we don't mind if you're not über-femmy; just be a woman, without doing the subconscious visual competition thing. If we appreciate your 'dressing up', it's not because of how it makes you look, it's because it shows that you care about how you present yourself. If you find an alternative way to present yourself that achieves the same effect without the same level of headache, then by all means go for it.

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"The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of a digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top of a mountain or in the petals of a flower." - Robert M. Pirsig

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maximile

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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2007 18:24      Profile for maximile   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
GameMaster wrote:
Your also forgetting that physcological effects are much larger than physical one (even in the case of physical assult).

Would you care to cite your source for that conclusion, because it sounds very much like you just said "women can handle being beated and raped better than men" which is the most offensive thing I've seen on these forums in a very long time.

Wow... and there was me thinking that that post was one of the most insightful and honest since the vegan thread. Let's hope this thread doesn't end in the same way.

I don't get it... every account of rape I've read about states that the psychological effects are worse than the physical; they can mess up your life for years after the event whereas most physical damage is usually dealt with by, say, a month's time? (Perhaps nine months in the worst situation, but I'd associate that more with the psychological pain than physical). And just trying to imagine it myself, it seems to make sense. Surely the physical pain would be insignificant compared to the feelings of confusion, anger, violation etc.?

I took his point to be that while men are on average more capable of dealing with the physical effects of assault, that's far from the worst part of the ordeal. Which seems to make sense to me. I don't see how you could interpret what he said in the way you did. He's not trying to belittle anyone's suffering, he's just saying that not enough attention is paid to "reverse discrimination". Which isn't something that has particularly occurred to me, but it seems like a reasonable thing to say.

And even if he had meant that women are better placed to deal with rape, would it really have been that offensive? I mean, it would be incorrect, and perhaps insensitive, but I don't see why it would rile you so much. That said, I fully acknowledge that I might be ignorant and insensitive myself about this, so I might change my mind if there are some persuasive posts coming up.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2007 18:40      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
maximile wrote:
And even if he had meant that women are better placed to deal with rape, would it really have been that offensive? I mean, it would be incorrect, and perhaps insensitive, but I don't see why it would rile you so much.

A couple of my friends have had their lives absolutely destroyed because they couldn't deal with what had happened to them. One eventually committed suicide. Yes, it really is that offensive to me, if that's what he meant.

My post asked that gamemaster offer a source for his reasoning that the psychological impact of rape is worse for men. I would still like to see a source.

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Posts: 6364 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
ScholasticSpastic
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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2007 18:48      Profile for ScholasticSpastic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If we must have capital punishment, I believe cases of violent rape ought to be right up there with murder. You don't spend the rest of your life dealing with the emotional ramifications of being killed.

Boo, there are some very pretty transexuals running around. You're thinking kind of stereotypically about the issue. If I met a post-op tranny who was my type, I'd certainly date her. I doubt I will, though, because they're some of the girliest piles of lace I've ever had to deal with. Those girls really take gender stereotypes too far.

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"As in repeating a well-known song, so in instincts, one action follows another by a sort of rhythm; if a person be interrupted in a song, or in repeating anything by rote, he is generally forced to go back to recover the habitual train of thought..." (Darwin, The Origin of Species)

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maximile

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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2007 18:53      Profile for maximile   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Steen: I'm sorry to hear about your friends. And I'll of course understand if you don't want hear my opinion; feel free to ignore this.

But if that was what he meant, I still don't see how it's offensive. It's not making light of the pain of anyone who has been assaulted, it's just saying that it might be worse if the victim had been a man. (Again, I feel should point out that I don't think this is true, and I don't think that anything GameMaster said suggests that he does either).

His post, and especially the part you quoted, simply said that the psychological effects are more important than the physical effects, regardless of gender. It makes no suggestion that women don't suffer from the psychological effects. I think you misread his post.

Posts: 1085 | From: London, UK (Powys, UK in hols) | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2007 19:22      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
maximile wrote:
His post, and especially the part you quoted, simply said that the psychological effects are more important than the physical effects, regardless of gender. It makes no suggestion that women don't suffer from the psychological effects. I think you misread his post.

Well, let's look at the conext...
Men often don't complain about it because of stigmas in our society that women are weaker than men, that men shouldn't hit a girl even in self defence and that if a man is beaten up or raped by a women that it couldn't have happened or that he's a "weak." Your also forgetting that physcological effects are much larger than physical one (even in the case of physical assult). Not enough attention is paid "reverse" discrimination.

Three sentences. The first discussing how men often don't complain about rape (true enough), the third about how the same attention is not paid to men who have been raped (also true). Why would you believe that the sentence in between was about both genders and not specifically men?

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hecateluna
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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2007 20:19      Profile for hecateluna     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
Hecta, it's the same thing. You're actually saying that it is acceptable to exclude all men from some gyms because some men are pigs, harass and assult women. What you are missing is that women also assult and objectify men.

You are attributing some rather angry, insulting, and irrational language to me ("some men are pigs"), which I'm fairly certain I haven't exhibited (yet--I might be getting there). Are you f---ing kidding me??? (Seriously. I've misinterpreted someone here already. If you're kidding, then, yeah, I'm sorry.) What _you_ are missing is that I'm not actually stupid enough to not know that on rare occasions, men are sexually harassed, raped, assaulted, battered, etc. by women. However, to take rape as an example (which, to many _women_ would be a worst case), 99% of rape perpetrators are men (from http://www.montana.edu/msr/docs/stats.html#rapestats who cite Blezard, R. (2002). It takes a man. Teaching Tolerance, Fall, 2002). So, men, if you're genuinely worried about someone raping you, and you want to worry based on gender? MALE is the gender you should worry about. (Men are also far less likely to be victims of rape. One in 33 instead of one in FOUR. One in FOUR, PEOPLE!!! That means that if you know twelve women, it's reasonably likely that you know THREE WOMEN who have been raped.) (Note that my statistics are from a site dedicated to the topic of MEN being raped, so I doubt it's biased in my favor here. I think the FBI has these stats as well, but it's a heck of a lot of work to navigate their site.)

There is a possibility that men are less likely to report rape than women, I suppose. I doubt it actually, but it's not relevant. Regardless of that, the numbers are so overwhelming that it's highly, highly unlikely that the rates are remotely comparable.

Beyond that, I might believe that for many victims of violent crimes, the psychological effects of rape are worse than the physical effects. However, that BY NO MEANS implies that their psychological trauma is by any means comparable to the trauma that poor little gamer boys experience when women make fun of them. Let's be clear. We are comparing violent crime, including sexual violence which is difficult or impossible to avoid to verbal and/or emotional abuse which in my particular case can easily be avoided. So, I ask again... are you f---ing kidding me??? (Um, outside question to anyone, I failed to find the policies, am I allowed to curse here?)

I mean, I don't know what everyone else's experiences have been, but like most people, I've been TORTURED by my peers to the point of genuinely considering suicide, as a teenager (until 17 or so, when I started severe dieting and got a job, I was the fat girl who didn't wear the right clothes because my parents were dirt poor), and I've been stalked, harassed, and assaulted (not sexually--fortunately) by someone who could KILL ME WITH HIS BARE HANDS if he chose, and I've gotta tell you, they aren't even comparable. When you've experienced any of the latter? Get back to me. (I'm not looking for sympathy here--it was years ago, and I've mostly gotten over both ordeals, but I remember well enough to make a fair comparison.)

There are all kinds of questions regarding this so-called "reverse-*ism" you bring up, but I'm entirely unwilling to move on to that until the absurdity of your first argument is addressed.

You're making prejudgments about men in the gym setting, that, while being different judgments (and worse ones about the nature of men), are of the same type that your sister's boyfriend had about women in gaming. You can't have your cake, and eat it too.

I'm sorry, but I didn't make any judgments regarding the nature of men. I think you must have misunderstood something I said.

So, to sum up my anger and rant: Are you genuinely going to say that a person who is simply trying to avoid being one of the 25% of women who are raped is just as "wrong" as a person who is trying to avoid verbal or emotional abuse which he can end at any time during the course of the abuse? Because that's what I'm talking about here.


nerdwithnofriends:

Amen. Maybe as a man I'm not qualified to say this, but ladies, if you're weak-minded enough to feel guilty that you don't look like models on whom hundreds of thousands of dollars are spent to look amazing, maybe you deserve to be caught in a vicious cycle.

Yeah, except men, in general, have a huge tendency to stare at, make comments about, and give tons of attention (and money) to women who look in a particular type (think TV-stripper). It's not all men, but it's a lot of them. And for a straight woman, looking like that increases by a huge amount the number of men who want to date you. (I personally don't want a man like that anyway, I'd rather be alone--but I don't blame someone who feels differently.)

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2007 20:47      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Would you care to cite your source for that conclusion, because it sounds very much like you just said "women can handle being beated and raped better than men" which is the most offensive thing I've seen on these forums in a very long time.
I said nothing of the sort. My statement had no mention of gender in it. I was just saying that she was minimizing the psychological impact, and implying that in order for there to be real harm there has to be physical danger.

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2007 20:51      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
GM: Minority status is very fickle that way. IIRC, select groups are permitted to be exclusive. For instance, a church is permitted to deny people or actions based on its own rules, the Boy Scouts are permitted to exclude gay troop leaders, and Apple Computer is permitted to act like a monopoly player because it only has a small share of the market. Do any on these things seem fair on the surface? Not particularly - but it has been considered generally acceptable, and protected by law.

boo: Regarding models...I seem to recall reading some bunk somewhere about the tall thin models being as such to be able to wear any of the designer's clothes and to call more attention to the clothes than the figure holding them. This is utter nonsense, but these people live in a parallel universe and have long since given up reason. They are *not* trying to appeal to everyday people, but to management and the people who determine if their /normal/ wares (woo for punnage) will see the light of day.

nwnf: Sorry, but the attitude behind that post really doesn't seem helpful...but I guess you don't care about that. Just shouting something doesn't make it so - thinking awhile, and politely stating a though can help.

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nerdwithnofriends
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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2007 21:27      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
nwnf: Sorry, but the attitude behind that post really doesn't seem helpful...but I guess you don't care about that. Just shouting something doesn't make it so - thinking awhile, and politely stating a though can help.

Why not? Everybody here likes to think they're different from the rest of society in that they don't care what anybody else thinks, are their own individuals, blah blah blah. You yourself are known for your intolerance of stupidity (or anybody who doesn't know as much as you, for that matter); isn't predicating your own self-worth upon what people tell you to look like a form of stupidity?


The only way people learn is through mistakes; after people get burned enough times trying to cater to what we've already decided is a superficial standard, maybe they'll realize it's the idea of trying to appear like you give a damn, rather than the details of how you accomplish it, that matter most.


Unless, of course, you'd prefer to perpetuate this pattern of stupidity. But I guess that's your idea of being 'helpful', so carry on.

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