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Author Topic: Vista
stevenback7
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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2007 17:57      Profile for stevenback7   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If you had an xp machine right now which could handle the upgrade to vista, would you do the upgrade or stick with xp?

And no; switching to a mac is not an option and neither is going back to 95 or even further into the world of microsoft.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2007 18:47      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If the PC was an extra used for testing and goofing off only, I would. Otherwise, not a chance until the release of the first service pack at the earliest. I'm content to let others find the major, fatal flaws first.

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Richard Wolf VI
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Icon 2 posted January 30, 2007 20:53      Profile for Richard Wolf VI   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I won't upgrade, I'll upgrade when the OS gets solid enough and programmes I use daily become Vista exclusive.

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spungo
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2007 05:30      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If I ever own a machine powerful enough I may think about it... if only so I can bitch about it online with a glimmer of authority.

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Shameless plug. (Please forgive me.)

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Stibbons
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2007 05:34      Profile for Stibbons   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm in the process of downloading myself a copy of Vista Business (legally too - gotta love the MSDN), so once I find a machine powerful enough to run it that I don't mind junking then I'll give it a go...
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quantumfluff
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2007 06:10      Profile for quantumfluff     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The new Vista billboard
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stevenback7
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2007 08:22      Profile for stevenback7   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
nice picture fluff,

yeah even though my computer can run vista, i'm just not going to just because its going to take a year or so before most mayor flaws are taken care of (unless its like IE6) and by that time i will be graduating highschool and going to univ. where i most likely will need a new need computer espcially if i am going to go into the computer area. Plus i don't really want to spend the money for vista, its not like there is anything wrong with xp.

I just have a friend who had bought a new pc before xmas and got the free vista upgrade thing with it. and he just asked me what he should do and i thought i better ask you guys for a second opinion.

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uilleann
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2007 09:42            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Nothing wrong with XP? Oh no, you're a fanboy! There's a ridiculous amount wrong with XP (just mention getting printers to work, for one: bad device recognition and mysterious device duplication, and the incesssant, meaningless "Error - Printing" summing all of Microsoft's knowldge of system awareness) but I just don't think that Vista is the answer. I don't think any new Microsoft OS is going to solve the problems of the last one [Smile]

I don't know. It would be curious to see if Vista breaks the chain of Windows having bugs that have been stuck there year upon year, Windows release upon Windows release without ever being fixed. Will it, for the first time, recognise that, like $0.000 and 0.000˘, there is a vast difference between a belligerent printer that needs rebooting, and one that's not even connected to the USB socket at all? (Windows is too damn stupid to detect that a printer is not connected when the cable accidentally falls out, but if you plug it back in, it may ask you to reinstall the drivers and create a duplicate printer on next boot and not print at all after that) That there is no way you can print page "2/1"? I don't even want to know what "Error - Printing" means: since it's actually not printing. What is "Error - Printing - Restarting"?

It would be nice to see a version of Windows where everyday work, well, just works. If Vista can deliver on this, it might be worth it for, say, non-technical family members, who just want something that works!

I'd also consider it if it solves problems like not visually showing that programs are loading (unlike how GNOME/KDE/Mac OS X all do), and how a really rapid click is treated as a command to focus the control under the mouse instead of actually click it, a problem that plagues my dad and I alike. I am guessing that Windows, or applications themselves (it affects Paintbrush for me more than anything) lose one of the mouseup and mousedown messages leading to confusing instructions.

Nothing I've read about Vista so far tells me if it solves all these little things. I don't care about Aero/Glass, the annoying sidebar with the clock in, or the other eye candy, but if I can recommend it to my father as an OS that will just do, for the first time in his PC's life, what he asked it to and gives him decent feedback, I might be more interested.

What I find interesting however, is that the outrageous pricing of Vista here lowers the cost offset of just getting a Mac in the first place [Wink] In his case, however, there would need to be a Mac flight sim as astoundingly gorgeous and mind-blowingly impressive as Microsoft Flight Simulator X as that's what I want to get him set up to run at some point; I had no idea we'd reached the point where anything that detailed was possible. But I guess we are, as Grand Theft Auto 3, my existing Gold Standard for world simulation, is quite old now.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2007 10:27      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
uilleann wrote:
I don't know. It would be curious to see if Vista breaks the chain of Windows having bugs that have been stuck there year upon year, Windows release upon Windows release without ever being fixed. Will it, for the first time, recognise that, like $0.000 and 0.000˘, there is a vast difference between a belligerent printer that needs rebooting, and one that's not even connected to the USB socket at all? (Windows is too damn stupid to detect that a printer is not connected when the cable accidentally falls out, but if you plug it back in, it may ask you to reinstall the drivers and create a duplicate printer on next boot and not print at all after that) That there is no way you can print page "2/1"? I don't even want to know what "Error - Printing" means: since it's actually not printing. What is "Error - Printing - Restarting"?

*replaces uillean's printer with a manual typewriter*

There... every complaint resolved [Smile]

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2007 10:48      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm not even going to check the specs on Vista. My home machine is closing in on seven years old. It's doing fine with XP, but I'm sure it won't handle Vista. I could upgrade, but I'd rather save up for a whole new computer. And, to be honest, when I do decide it's time to move on, I'll be getting a Mac of some species or another (probably a Mini). I've gotten rather fond of OSX, and it would make it easy to do some of my computational crap from home.

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Demosthenes
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2007 10:48      Profile for Demosthenes     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by stevenback7:
switching to a mac is not an option and neither is going back to 95 or even further into the world of microsoft.

You didn't say anything about FreeBSD, though. [evil]
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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2007 10:50      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
stevenback7_______________________In one word NO. I have a brand new Compaq Laptop here that does not have enough memory to run Vista. Then if I did up grade would Street Atlas that I use when traveling still work. I'll have to ask DeLorme, because I'm still having trouble with the install onto XP.

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Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2007 11:00      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It's extremely rare for me to buy the latest software. It's generally way too expensive, and not polished yet. In the case of Vista, the price probably won't come down, so there's a good chance I'll never buy it at all.

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maximile

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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2007 11:38      Profile for maximile   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
uilleann, I hope you someday go into game design, cause it sounds like you like the same sort of things that I do.
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Zwilnik

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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2007 11:50      Profile for Zwilnik   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by uilleann:
In his case, however, there would need to be a Mac flight sim as astoundingly gorgeous and mind-blowingly impressive as Microsoft Flight Simulator X as that's what I want to get him set up to run at some point; I had no idea we'd reached the point where anything that detailed was possible. But I guess we are, as Grand Theft Auto 3, my existing Gold Standard for world simulation, is quite old now.

Slightly less eye candy but *way* better physics and accuracy (plus the rather cool ability to design your own aircraft) is X-Plane on Mac and PC. As used by a lot of professional pilots for instrument training, as well as a by a lot of aircraft designers who try out their ideas on it first.

and back on topic, I'd rather stuff a Vesta curry into my PC's DVD drive than a Vista DVD [Wink]

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DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2007 13:04      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by stevenback7:
If you had an xp machine right now which could handle the upgrade to vista, would you do the upgrade or stick with xp?

And no; switching to a mac is not an option and neither is going back to 95 or even further into the world of microsoft.

Two of my three XP machines could run Vista no problem. If I do I am going to wait at least 6 months though and it will only be on my machine. The last thing I need to do is explain how to do things all over again to my wife.

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uilleann
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2007 14:21            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No, eye candy matters the most in world simulation. The aim is to able to drive (in GTA) or fly (in Flight Sim) around a world that's so lifelike that you feel it's real. GTA 3 is quite emotional for me, they did an amazing job. Touches like leaves and litter blowing in the breeze and car lights reflecting off a wet road, and the (albeit notably imperfect) halo around street lighting, is very powerful and addictive to me. Too bad I can't play it here ...

X-Plane is not well known, it seems; I found very few screenshots of it at all so few people seem to be either using, promoting or just plain talking about it. X-Plane might be on a par with Flight Sim 2004 from what I've seen, but even FS 2004 had trees on the landscape and X-Plane seems to have no ability to place interesting custom objects on the landscape at all; its limit seems to be texture-mapped ground to look like cities. FSX claims to have dolphins, birds etc and clearly has whole cities, forests, snowy mountainsides etc. I am astonished at how high up you can fly and still see every building, every tree, right into the distance. Microsoft may not be able to make an OS, but they know how to build a world simulator...

But me, in game design? Hm ... I don't have the creative talent, and I think my intensely passionate desire for realism would be at odds with gameplay, saleability, development time, development finances and actually running on real home computers [Razz]

Though I'm pleased to see that games are improving a lot over time, so we'll get there. By realism I mean games where the maps are vaguely plausible. A lot of games have level maps that don't reflect reality. Descent is a good example: there are people in the mines, but no crew quarters, no toilets, no offices, no meeting rooms, no staircases, no ships or Segways for them to get around on, in fact, there's nothing about the levels that even vaguely resembles what you'd expect to see in an ore mine. This trend still continues I think to this day.

By comparison, Goldeneye's levels were designed to match the film before any missions were created, so the levels were built with no plans whatsoever except recreating a film, so they're a lot more plausible, and that's very welcome.

But there are still things to consider. In Deus Ex, the incidental characters were all literal duplicates of each other, clothes, hair and all. In just about any game, the most powerful weapons a man can wield, don't put a scratch in the wall. Hell, in Descent you opened doors by shooting them, and that went for the Fusion Cannon as much as for a laser bolt. Magic Carpet let you blow holes in the ground and damage buildings, impressive not just for its day but, sadly, even now. And when you shoot a light bulb, the rooms should go dark!

One of my old favourite games was X-Wing, because that did go to an astonishing degree of detail. Shield strength focusing, power allotment, weapon configuration: all sorts of control over the ship's operation. Damage to different parts of the ship, damage repair. Quite a nice sensor console and readouts and of course, dynamic music! The only people in the world to realise that space has no "up" and you'd frequently encounter "upside down" ships, which was the sort of touch that makes me really impressed. I was always rolling so that I'd be the same way up as them.

I disagree with the notion that if your engines pack up, you slow down and stop, which was the game's only failing (assuming you're OK with the spacecraft-manoeuvre-like-aircraft premise, which isn't implausible if you have all the right rockets I suppose). You should just keep going and be unable to stop!

I tend to take the view that you need to get everything right, or nothing at all. The harder to try to be detailed, the more obvious the flaws are going to be. No-one will notice or care that Pacman or Galaxian are ridiculous, because they're not trying to simulate anything and are just plain fun. Start to simulate a 3D scenario and you'll start to make all sorts of design decisions that seem very odd. I know that some are not by choice, given obvious RAM, CD/DVD space, CPU power and developmet limits, and hence I'd be at great odds with everyone if I tried to design anything.

Thing is this ... why do cars in GTA 3, have triangular steering wheels?

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maximile

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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2007 15:44      Profile for maximile   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by uilleann:
...

[Applause] [Applause]

In Descent's defence, the mine was mainly automated, operated by the mechs that you fight. The only humans you see are the hostages, and presumably they do their wees in their blue space suits. (In Descent I and II, at least. I never played 3)

I think that the game Red Faction boasted about its "Geomod" capabilities; apparently all the scenery (including the walls) there could be shot to pieces. It didn't sell well, I think. I don't think we're going to see much advancement there for a while, especially when you have things like displacement mapping making bullet holes look so good. I'd love to be wrong though.

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uilleann
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2007 16:16            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
hm, yes, I think a friend had Red Faction and I did see some of that. I tend to see only small glimpses of each game at his house, whatever he's playing that day; I just sit and watch and get addicted to the music (which I later download).

That all said, I don't hate Descent: it was a very attractive and yet very chilling game, and one of my favourite games at that. Like any decent game, it's way too hard for me, but it was enjoyable nonetheless, when it wasn't freaking me out. The soundtrack as a whole was pretty bad, but there were some really, really nice tunes (levels 1 (Lunar Outpost), 3 (Lunar Military Base), 18 (Miranda Mine) and 22 (Neptune Storage Depot) in particular) and I'd use the FARMERJOE cheat to warp to those levels just to sit and listen to the music. I have all those tunes as OGG now, but they came from an OPL3 emulator, which has a dry, harsh tone that lacks the rich warmth of my real sound card.

I'll say this: if I had a PC powerful enough for Vista, I could play Descent again. Sadly, the best way to do this is DOSBox which is a PC emulator, so you need a stupid amount of power to emulate the architecture that you are already running which is nuts. Why not virtualise my existing CPU and simply emulate the peripheral hardware? For example, VMWare won't come with emulation for period hardware such as OPL3.

Good thing my 486 still works :> (I can still set it up and play all my old favourite DOS games if I wanted to)

But the question is this: if the PTMC mines were all automated, what did they need with jail cells?

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2007 16:40      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by maximile:
quote:
Originally posted by uilleann:
...

I think that the game Red Faction boasted about its "Geomod" capabilities; apparently all the scenery (including the walls) there could be shot to pieces. It didn't sell well, I think. I don't think we're going to see much advancement there for a while, especially when you have things like displacement mapping making bullet holes look so good. I'd love to be wrong though.
I played it. It was pretty solidly in the mediocre category.

One of my favorites for having a comparatively realistic-feeling setting was the Chronicles of Riddick (I played it on XBox, though). It wasn't perfect, but the settings look really good. You aren't destroying a lot of your environment other than lights, though, since you don't get many high-powered weapons.

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2007 17:31      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The way I understand it ...

Upon registration of VISTA, your personal information is automatically sent to people peddling stock tips, viagara and lots in Florida.

Colonel Panic

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Mac D
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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2007 10:37      Profile for Mac D     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Cp,

That is one thing that really bugs me about Windblows. It seems every new OS they come out with the more information they want from you. And it gets more to the point where you can't lie anymore (Name: Turd Furgeson Company: Frustrated Incorporated ....... )

I always put false information into that first part and they don't ask for all that much information with the older windows and the Macs. With XP they want everything. So Vista would be a no.

I do like SuSe where they basically ask for nothing.

I hate giving companies my info. Even if they say it's secured means nothing.

So no, They have enough of my phony information and I refuse to see if they want all of my info. It is getting to the point that it's way to much that they are asking. I just don't like to give that info out.

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maximile

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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2007 10:51      Profile for maximile   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by uilleann:
I'll say this: if I had a PC powerful enough for Vista, I could play Descent again. Sadly, the best way to do this is DOSBox which is a PC emulator, so you need a stupid amount of power to emulate the architecture that you are already running which is nuts. Why not virtualise my existing CPU and simply emulate the peripheral hardware? For example, VMWare won't come with emulation for period hardware such as OPL3.

Do none of the open source ports work for you?
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uilleann
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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2007 11:05            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hadn't heard of them. I can actually get a mean game of Descent going in NTVDM (without sound) for a little while, but then NTVDM hangs. This taught me another failing in Windows: if a full-screen application hangs, there's no guarantee of getting the screen back, ever. Even the ctrl-alt-del panel in 2000 was coming up underneath NTVDM, but I could nevertheless hit L for log out, and then coax all my applications to quit, while staring at nothing but a frozen Descent. Once my desktop was shut down, the screen came back, to the "Saving your settings" screen.

Thing is, Microsoft took out the precious ctrl-alt-del panel as of XP, and I'd be lost without that. I'd have to learn how to log out without it; I hope that XP's Task Manager has a Log Out feature (as 2000's does not), or hope that once I have Task Manager "active" (?) the Start key on the keyboard would respond (invisibly) and I could go from there. ctrl-alt-del, l for logout is so reassuring.

I feel safer in Linux in this regard: I can hit ctrl/alt/2/F2 (keep bashing all those in random combinations until I hit one that works -- I can never remember which it is) and ps -ax/grep/kill whatever has screwed up the GUI. Windows Vista I imagine is still too fragile, with no safeguards or way out if you fall at the mercy of a malfunctioning program, one that takes over the screem/mouse/keyboard.

Mac OS X makes the same stupid mistake, but at least I can SSH into that and restore its sanity remotely :)

As for Descent: thanks, I'll try that. But that alone isn't enough, as I have more games than that by far, including the wonderful Worms. (The original, not Worms 2)

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