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Author Topic: Airport connection
littlefish
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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2006 10:20      Profile for littlefish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My flatmate finally has her replacement powerbook, and I'm setting up the airport extreme base station.

We have a cable modem, which is then plugged into a router. From there, downstream connections are wired into other rooms, and another goes to the airport.

Now there are two ports which I can plug into - one marked as lan, one as wan. Apple suggests (for reasons I don't know) that it should be connected through the wan port if the airport is used for connection to the internet. However, if I do this, useful things fail to happen. Although bonjour works for ichat, the shared itunes folders are not detected, and ssh'ing between the machines is more involved (can't use name.local), have to use an IP, which isn't static.

Is using the wrong port opening me up to a whole new world of pain, or should it all be OK, as it is behind the wired router?

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MacManKrisK

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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2006 10:39      Profile for MacManKrisK     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Since your AirPort is on your LAN and you're not using it as a gateway, I'd plug it into the LAN port. Most wireless routers separate the local network from the WAN port (that is, the WAN port is used if you want the wireless rotuer to be your Internet router/gateway) but see anything plugged into the LAN port as being local.

Of corse the usual disclaimer of securing your base station... WEP, MAC filtering, et. al. also applies.

My $.02, YMMV

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alfrin
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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2006 14:29      Profile for alfrin     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MacManKrisK:


Of corse the usual disclaimer of securing your base station... WEP, MAC filtering, et. al. also applies.

My $.02, YMMV

WEP?!??! Those keys can be broken in a matter of minutes these days, you might as well leave it as an open system. WPA all the way, so much better than WEP. I don't know about Macs or Airports so I can't gaurentee it is supported

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2006 18:34      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by alfrin:
quote:
Originally posted by MacManKrisK:


Of corse the usual disclaimer of securing your base station... WEP, MAC filtering, et. al. also applies.

My $.02, YMMV

WEP?!??! Those keys can be broken in a matter of minutes these days, you might as well leave it as an open system. WPA all the way, so much better than WEP. I don't know about Macs or Airports so I can't gaurentee it is supported
I use 128-bit WEP, made with totally random values. I probably should try cracking it some day using the tools on the Auditor CD (or Knoppix STD), but I haven't gotten around to it yet. Mind you, I always keep wireless networks isolated from meaningful ones, as they're nothing more than trinkets. [Wink]

As far as I'm concerned, 128-bit WEP is a strong discouragement to use a network. People who are committed to getting in might find a way, but I don't know terribly many people who are so inclined. [Big Grin]

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2006 18:47      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
dman, is there a step-by-step how-to somewhere for setting up WEP security (or any kind of security) on a WAN for a PowerBook talking with a Linksys router? If not, would you write one for me? [Big Grin]

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2006 20:05      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
dman, is there a step-by-step how-to somewhere for setting up WEP security (or any kind of security) on a WAN for a PowerBook talking with a Linksys router? If not, would you write one for me? [Big Grin]

Rhonwyyn: I have a hard time believing you're running a WAN. [Wink]

Just Google for instructions on setting up encryption on your access point. Oh wait, I have an even better idea! Read the manual that came with it! I guarantee it has instructions on setting up encryption. Macs are ridiculously easy to use, and will tell you when a network is available (and if encrypted, ask you for the encryption key). Just don't use passphrases and you'll be pretty secure.

Personally, I'm fond of generating 13 bytes from random.org and setting that as a key. Let's just see the Feds crack that in 3 minutes using a dictionary attack. [Wink] [I'm too lazy to Google for a relevancy link right now - anyone want to check for a /. story a few months ago about the Feds cracking WEP in 2-3 minutes?]

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2006 20:17      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
LIttle to no manual, dman. The CD doesn't work in my Mac, so I downloaded it onto my mom's PC, then transferred using my jump drive. It's a pdf, but has nothing to do with Macs, only PCs. Someone (Macmcseboy?) told me how to get into the control Website of my router, but I don't remember how to do that. Besides which, I had problems with it and had to reset it (somehow it didn't like my password?).

And WAN= Wireless Area Network, right?

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2006 20:35      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If there's one thing getting my degree in Computer Science taught me, it's to be pedantic, and back statements up with fact. If you don't know the answer, do not present it as thought it's a truth - either say "I don't know," or look it up.

In the case of WAN, all it takes is a Googling of 'define:WAN' - hell, before I made my post, I did such a check to be sure it was painstakingly obvious that it was /the/ most common definition of WAN out there.

In the case of your access point, I am pretty skeptical about the manual - Linksys has pretty decent manuals if you take the time to read them. The silly Quick Start guides might be useless, but the full reference manuals are usually long and detailed. Really, it's a matter of logging into 192.168.1.1 and using _blank_/admin as credentials, and ideally doing this using Cat-5. I have no doubt that this information is on hundreds of websites, with some of the top ranking pages on linksys.com.

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shriver
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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2006 20:36      Profile for shriver     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Back to the original question:

quote:
Originally posted by littlefish:
Is using the wrong port opening me up to a whole new world of pain, or should it all be OK, as it is behind the wired router?

I don't know if this is an issue for you or not, but I've seen a lot of trouble with it on larger networks so I thought I would just throw it out there: The only issue I can see is that both your Airport and your Router may try to assign IP addresses to your LAN. If both devices are serving DHCP addies, you will have some conflict. Just be sure to turn the DHCP server of the Airport off.

quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
And WAN= Wireless Area Network, right?

Nice try, but WAN = Wide Area Network. For all practical purposes, it's a fancy way of saying "everything outside of your LAN".

WLAN = Wireless LAN

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2006 20:47      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MacManKrisK:
Since your AirPort is on your LAN and you're not using it as a gateway, I'd plug it into the LAN port. Most wireless routers separate the local network from the WAN port (that is, the WAN port is used if you want the wireless rotuer to be your Internet router/gateway) but see anything plugged into the LAN port as being local.

Of corse the usual disclaimer of securing your base station... WEP, MAC filtering, et. al. also applies.

My $.02, YMMV

Oops...sorry littlefish...this thread so quickly jumped into encryption discussions that I missed your initial question.

MMKK is absolutely correct. The LAN port is for use when the Airport is acting as an AP (access point), the WAN port is for use when the Airport is acting as your router [this should /only/ be plugged directly into your cable modem]). Apple's docs/recommendations are not intended for your network layout. (I have my network set up in a somewhat similar layout /except/ that I connect my iBook to a Cisco AP, using PoE, configured via ttyS0. [Wink] )

Mind you, I'll add that other configurations could be used, but the above is true for /most/ home configurations - people who like to play with this stuff (like me!) may choose somewhat unorthodox layouts, but such individuals usually have a network map posted above their main wiring area. [Razz] [I have 3 wired routers, 2 APs, and a FTTP ONT [Big Grin] ] (Oh, and I have a PIX Firewall in the trunk [read: boot] of my car. [But...it's 3U and only supports 48 concurrent connections, so I CBA to do anything with it.])

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2006 20:53      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Bloody 'ell. I read through the manual that came with my router. Nothing regarding Macs in it at all. [Frown] I asked around before buying it and people here said it would work with my AirPort card (which it does extremely well, no pun intended), but yeah, the manual isn't helpful. I spent a few hours back when I moved to Landisville searching for on-line security recipes but didn't find anything helpful. After that, I figured asking someone with experience would be my best option. [ohwell]

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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2006 20:55      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
code:
[Modem Ethernet port]
|
|
\/
[Back of Router - WAN port]
|
|
[translation using the router's NAT ability]
|
\/
[LAN port 1]-----> [Aiport]-----[wirelss network]--->[laptop]
|
|
\/
[Lan ports 2-4]-------->wired desktop machine(s)

assuming you have a four-port router with a separate wan port.


Hope that helps! As you can see, you plug your modem into the WAN port on your router - it's probably set aside from the LAN ports on the back by at least a centimeter or two, and it is most likely labelled.

From there, you would plug your airport into one of the LAN ports on the back of your router, and the rest of your hardwired machines into the remaining free LAN ports. Then you would configure the aiport to NOT assign DHCP addresses - it will automatically forward the request to the router if you have it configured correctly.

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2006 21:36      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
nwnf: If you still have the source ASCII, just paste in here inside UBB CODE tags. Use them like quote tags, and they'll give you a <blockquote><pre>foo</pre></blockquote>

P.S. I consider instructions for Macs mostly irrelevant and unnecessary. On modern operating systems, most networking problems can be tackled with nearly the same approaches - it's all syntactic sugar.

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littlefish
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Icon 1 posted January 26, 2006 01:24      Profile for littlefish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Cheers everyone.

FWIW, WPA does work with airport (at least it does with airport extreme. YMMV)

As far as I know, and I'm no networking guru, my netgear wired router is assigning IP's through DHCP, which are forwarded by the airport. I think I have NAT off (is that the same as port forwarding - that is definitely off). Most of the router settings are default (not the password!), and it seems sensible!

What a lot of acronyms!

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted January 26, 2006 05:35      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No, you must have NAT turned on, or else you would not be able to hook up multiple computers. Port forwarding is /not/ the same thing - it's used to work around a side effect of using NAT (more correctly PAT in Cisco parlance, or NAPT).

There are a lot of TLAs, but they serve important roles, so let them live their happy lives and make yours work a bit easier. [Smile]

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted January 26, 2006 07:11      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
quote:
Originally posted by alfrin:
quote:
Originally posted by MacManKrisK:


Of corse the usual disclaimer of securing your base station... WEP, MAC filtering, et. al. also applies.

My $.02, YMMV

WEP?!??! Those keys can be broken in a matter of minutes these days, you might as well leave it as an open system. WPA all the way, so much better than WEP. I don't know about Macs or Airports so I can't gaurentee it is supported
I use 128-bit WEP, made with totally random values. I probably should try cracking it some day using the tools on the Auditor CD (or Knoppix STD), but I haven't gotten around to it yet. Mind you, I always keep wireless networks isolated from meaningful ones, as they're nothing more than trinkets. [Wink]

As far as I'm concerned, 128-bit WEP is a strong discouragement to use a network. People who are committed to getting in might find a way, but I don't know terribly many people who are so inclined. [Big Grin]

Actually, there are script kiddy programs for windows out there now where you basically click a button and it finds your password pretty much guaranteed in < 3minutes.

Using 128 bit WEP is going to stop casual neighbours from jumping on your network. It won't stop war drivers, because they inevitably already have that software loaded.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted January 26, 2006 08:03      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
No, you must have NAT turned on, or else you would not be able to hook up multiple computers. Port forwarding is /not/ the same thing - it's used to work around a side effect of using NAT (more correctly PAT in Cisco parlance, or NAPT).

There are a lot of TLAs, but they serve important roles, so let them live their happy lives and make yours work a bit easier. [Smile]

Dragon I would not normally dare to contradict one of the Wise Ones, but Doctor littlefish said his wired router was the DHCP server, and usually the DHCP server does all the NAT stuff. I think his Airport is just acting as a bridge, and so (I presume) does not need to do NAT. Or am I wrong? Anyway if it's working don't mess with it!

/edit Actually disregard all the above, I've just worked out that littlefish is probably talking about his wired router's settings in the post that dragon answered.

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted January 26, 2006 08:35      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
No, you must have NAT turned on, or else you would not be able to hook up multiple computers. Port forwarding is /not/ the same thing - it's used to work around a side effect of using NAT (more correctly PAT in Cisco parlance, or NAPT).

There are a lot of TLAs, but they serve important roles, so let them live their happy lives and make yours work a bit easier. [Smile]

Dragon I would not normally dare to contradict one of the Wise Ones, but Doctor littlefish said his wired router was the DHCP server, and usually the DHCP server does all the NAT stuff. I think his Airport is just acting as a bridge, and so (I presume) does not need to do NAT. Or am I wrong? Anyway if it's working don't mess with it!

/edit Actually disregard all the above, I've just worked out that littlefish is probably talking about his wired router's settings in the post that dragon answered.

Your /edit is exactly what I'm addressing. [Smile] No pun intended. [Big Grin]

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Icon 1 posted January 26, 2006 15:33      Profile for Geordie     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
In a previous life I worked on some of the Airport training documents and this is what we said about the ports:

quote:
Depending on the type of network connection, your base station uses one or a combination of the following ports: Modem, WAN, and LAN. You use the Modem port for dialup Internet access (Earthlink, AOL, and so on). You use the Wide Area Network (WAN) port when your base station is connected to a broadband network (such as a cable modem, DSL, or an Ethernet network). The Local Area Network (LAN) port is used if your implementation plan calls for your AirPort Base Station to take the network connection provided via the Modem or WAN port and then distribute that connection to an Ethernet network.

The LAN port is also used to bridge AppleTalk connectivity between wireless and wired networks. (AppleTalk is an Apple-developed protocol that computers and printers use to communicate with each other.) For example, if you have an AppleTalk printer that you would like to be accessible to wireless clients, you need to connect your base stationís LAN port to your Ethernet network.

Any broadcast protocol would be similar to AppleTalk in this regard.

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted January 26, 2006 15:59      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So from what Geordie wrote, I am indeed running a WAN. My housemate's computer is plugged into the LAN port on my Linksys router, the router is plugged into the cable modem, and the cable modem is plugged into the cable system. I access the Internet using my AirPort card and the wireless broadcast system in the router.

EDIT: Here's my question. Between Calli and me, we're stumped!

tried the 192.168.1.1 last night and got into the settings for my router. The front page is pretty self-explanatory, but here's where I get stuck: if I turn on WEP and make it mandatory, there's a button where I click to set the WEP key. So I clicked it, it asked for me to create a passphrase, then it created four sets of random alphanumeric code. I exited from that screen, went back to the front page... oh, ick. My AirPort symbol up at the top went grey, meaning no longer on a network. I selected it, found "linksys," and was prompted for my password. I entered the same password I used earlier for the WEP, but my connection was refused. I ended up having to reset my router since I couldn't get into anything else in the control panel. Do you know what I did wrong? (And yes, I tried entering the password a couple different times/ways, even tried the default of my system.)

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Icon 1 posted January 26, 2006 19:37      Profile for alfrin     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Rhon, I think you have a few things confused, the WEP key is one of the four randomly generate numbers, the passphrase you entered was most likely only there to help the random factor. Now if this was a WPA key it would be different and it would be the word. It should be noted never to set you WEP key or such untill you are sure you can actually connect to it wirelessly to begin with, then right down any number your router gives you that looks vaguely important.

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted January 26, 2006 19:53      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So then what's the purpose of setting up WEP if it doesn't do me any good? I'm getting d**n near frustrated with this thing 'cause I can't get straight answers anywhere. If security is so important, why isn't it easily explainable, and in concise steps, too?

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Icon 1 posted January 26, 2006 20:37      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
If security is so important, why isn't it easily explainable, and in concise steps, too?

They don't call it security through obscurity for nothing.

/tip waitress, try veal
//probably just that virtually no one capable of writing good technical documentation actually wants to write it
///yeah, slashies aren't technically correct, live with it...

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted January 26, 2006 20:57      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
R: Clearly you didn't read my clear concise steps.

I said "Really, it's a matter of logging into 192.168.1.1 and using _blank_/admin as credentials, and ideally doing this using Cat-5."

See the last part? Use a hard wired connection so that when you set the encryption, you don't get kicked out!!!

You were almost there. Except...you also didn't read my comment about "Don't use a passphrase." If you had generated a random key, from random.org, you'd have the 26 hex digit string in front of you, and have the password to enter into your Mac.

I have a problem with people not 'trying.' You full well know the adage "give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach him to fish, and he will have food for the rest of his life." If you ask us to spoonfeed you instructions, you will never learn the important concepts, you'll simply know some rote procedure which is only applicable in one instance. I provided the entire answer over the course of every post leading up to this one. Therefore I say there is no excuse. I do not buy the argument of "seeking answers in a friendly manner" completely replacing good old-fashioned research and reading the manual. I get paid decent money to be able to think on my feet, and make my own answers, rather than doing what others tell me to do. (And I just got a nice raise. [Big Grin] )

Also: You do not have a WAN - stop saying that. Saying it many times will not make it true.

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted January 26, 2006 21:16      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
dman (and anyone else who's listening):

A) I'm not using Linux, so I don't know what the slash is for when you write "_blank_/admin." All I know about slashes is the bit for logging onto our Intranet at work and there it's reversed like so, "employer/first.last".

B) I reread Geordie's statement
quote:
You use the Wide Area Network (WAN) port when your base station is connected to a broadband network (such as a cable modem, DSL, or an Ethernet network).
Right. I use the WAN port. There's big difference there, yes.

C) So what you're saying is that I have to memorize some gobbledy-gook to enter as my passphrase whenever I want to log onto my wireless network? Whatever happened to easily memorizable codes to negate the necessity of writing down secure phrases? [Confused]

D) In the Linksys control panel, I see at least three different places to set passwords. Do I need all of them, or will just setting one suffice?

E) Cut me a break. Dealing with Macs isn't as intuitive as it used to be. I'm still trying to figure it all out. I've only used Tiger for six months, if that, and then not too frequently or intensely. So yes, I am thoroughly confused by all of this because it's so backward to what I know on PCs.

F) Finally found what I needed. These people know how to talk to someone who's unfamiliar to the wireless network process: http://forums.macosxhints.com/showthread.php?t=48899

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Change the way you SEE, not the way you LOOK!

Posts: 3849 | From: Lancaster, PA | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged


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