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Author Topic: would YOU use microsoft software
nerdwithnofriends
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Icon 1 posted April 23, 2005 16:20      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Alright everybody, now before we do anything I want you all to know that I am a linux nerd and I hate microsoft just as next as the next cyberjunkie, but I thought I would pose an interesting hypothetical question:

If microsoft adopted a unix-type platform (posix/sus standards, etc)... maybe like that's what longhorn will be or something, would you use it?

to take the question further, if it was unix-based AND didn't suffer from the usual microsoftian ailments, would you spend less time developing stuff for other open-source platforms? why or why not?

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"The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of a digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top of a mountain or in the petals of a flower." - Robert M. Pirsig

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spungo
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Icon 1 posted April 23, 2005 16:53      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think that once you get to understand them properly, you too will learn to love Microsoft's wonderful operating systems. I am particularly pleased with the product activation that comes with XP - it comforts me to know that no terrorist-funding pirates are going to benefit from Microsoft's deserved income. Remember - every dollar spent on viral software is a dollar in the purse of Communists and drug-lords. Only with Microsoft's NSA-devised backdoors can our security be guaranteed. Buying non-Microsoft products is not only un-American, it is also harmful to one's vital bodily fluids.

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Shameless plug. (Please forgive me.)

Posts: 6529 | From: Noba Scoba | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
n4dmx
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Icon 1 posted April 23, 2005 17:25      Profile for n4dmx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The only Microsoft products I use are the ones the person who signs my paycheck tells me to use. I use Slackware and IP cop at home, with various open source apps for different things. [Big Grin]

I don't really hate Microsoft, I just prefer Linux and I don't agree with a lot of the things MS does, and have done in the past.

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jordanv
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Icon 1 posted April 23, 2005 19:23      Profile for jordanv     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Would I use Microsoft software personally? perhaps.

I don't use Gnu/Linux just because it is more reflective of my moral standards, I use it because it is good for me. Maybe I never would use MS software (probably price as well as evilness), but that doesn't stop me from praising it when it's good.

Using Gnu/Linux makes me happy. If Microsoft stuff could make me happy, i'd use it.

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magefile
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Icon 1 posted April 23, 2005 19:34      Profile for magefile     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think the closest thing to what you're talking about would be OS X, which is essentially a GUI on a Unix system (ok, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but ...). Basically, as long as the OS is reasonably secure, and I can use some sort of repo (be it apt-type, like Fink, or yum-type, or whatever), I'd use it.

I use Windows at school, but Mac at work - which is actually what converted me. The last Mac I had before this one was back in '93.

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alfrin
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Icon 1 posted April 24, 2005 13:50      Profile for alfrin     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
my mommy won't let me use GNU/Linux [Wink]
actually she won't... why, i do not know, maybe it's the fact that they just spent $3k on a new computer for me, or what, but she is really paranoid, if i even think about using it she will take the comp away

I'm pushing it using firefox....

So i'm just building my own so she will have no jurisidiction over it...

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Art is Resistance / Resistance is Art

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted April 24, 2005 16:13      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Would I use more Microsoft stuff? Absolutely not.

You see, there's a myriad of reasons for this. They start with my long standing disdain towards MS due to the crap they've come out with thus far. I mean, if someone comes to school every day for 10 years, and kicks you in the nuts before class, and then comes in on the last day and says, "I've found Jesus, wanna be my best friend?" I'm sorry, I'm not gonna forgive and forget. Perhaps if they developed a better reputation and didn't piss me off the few times I had to use them again dealing with customer's computers and the such, I might get a little warmer towards them.

Then, there's the whole issue with Linux and UNIX showing me just how sexy a computer can be, and letting me fix the bugs in software that annoy me, and giving me the full source code to everything I write. I don't think I'd ever go back unless they at least provided me with the bare necessities that Linux provides me with on a daily basis - sed, awk, grep, bash, perl, cut, etc. I realise those can be used in cygwin, but I mean native.

And as the old saying goes, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

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magefile
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Icon 1 posted April 24, 2005 17:25      Profile for magefile     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Would you be friends with *anyone* if they walked up to you and said, out of the blue, "I've found Jebus"? To me, that smells like evangelism ...

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Let them be stupid - the market will sort it out.

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Luke Skywalker
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Icon 1 posted April 24, 2005 17:33      Profile for Luke Skywalker     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I do use MS, as Im not an Apple addict (yet), and I'm not to the point in my life where I've experienced the wonders and joys of Linux. So at the moment I use MS stuff. I havent had too many problems with it, most of them being user errors. Yes I get my share of bugs occasionally, but who doesent with any system?

On the point of all the backdoors and security stuff, I've never had a virus accidently put on here (though I have had a few been put on by me, dont ask), never been hacked, and belive that half of the problems with you people is that you dont know how to properly take care of a computer, and so ya, $#!t happens. Ok, so MS doesnt make their stuff foolproof. Who does? I bet that if as many people used Apple software, they'd find bugs in it too. Point is, that people dont, so they dont find them. Plus there isn't really a lot of software for Apple and also with that, hackers and viruses arent enabled or targeted for Apple stuff. Not saything that thay couldn't be, its just that people know that they have more of a chance of sucess with something involving MS, as more people use it.

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Use the Force, Luke.

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted April 24, 2005 17:58      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Nothing personal to you, mr Skywalker, but I've heard a million people say, "I think most people's issue with Windows is that they don't understand how to properly use it." And every time I hear this, I want to locate the person who said it, and slap the ever living crap out of them.

First, my background: I've been using windows since Windows 2.0. I was there for every version since then. I have fixed literally THOUSANDS of Windows boxes, and I'm still the one responsible for fixing the Windows 2003 servers at work and for my business when the people responsible for them get stumped by them, so claiming that I don't understand windows or how to set it up would be nothing short of absolute nonsense. Those of us who DO hate Windows are in the same position as me, and claiming such a thing is completely, and utterly, nonsense.

Anyway, on to my main bitch. Microsoft has claimed since day one that their wonderful 'innovations' and usefulness are what have 'brought computers into peoples home'. If they want to claim that they're responsible for bringing computers into everyone's home, so be it. I don't agree, since the Commodore 64 didn't run WIndows, and they were already becoming mainstream with the 286 and Apple, but whatever. We'll give them that. HOWEVER, if they are insistent on being the ones who make software that 'anyone' can use, they need to make software that EVERYONE CAN USE WITHOUT GETTING HACKED TO SHIT.

The point here is that "my aunt may" needs to be able to install and set it up and use it and run it without it getting hacked and turned into a zombie, so any amount of computer know-how and savvy should not be necessary. That excuse is absurd.

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californiarockr
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Icon 1 posted April 24, 2005 20:23      Profile for californiarockr     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by spungo:
I think that once you get to understand them properly, you too will learn to love Microsoft's wonderful operating systems. I am particularly pleased with the product activation that comes with XP - it comforts me to know that no terrorist-funding pirates are going to benefit from Microsoft's deserved income. Remember - every dollar spent on viral software is a dollar in the purse of Communists and drug-lords. Only with Microsoft's NSA-devised backdoors can our security be guaranteed. Buying non-Microsoft products is not only un-American, it is also harmful to one's vital bodily fluids.

I read that, and was seriously thinking "Whoa, would never expect that from Spungo".


I need more sleep.

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lol

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted April 24, 2005 21:46      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Alright, here's my (admittedly biased) view.

I do use MS, as I'm not an Apple addict (yet), and I'm not to the point in my life where I've experienced the wonders and joys of Linux. So at the moment I use MS stuff. I haven't had too many problems with it, most of them being user errors. Yes I get my share of bugs occasionally, but who doesn't with any system?
Me, with Linux. Not one virus, worm or hack that I've noticed. This is partly security through obscurity, partly Linux is a more stable OS and partly that I don't open e-mail attachments and do actually maintain my system. The only problems I've had lately are hardware issues.

On the point of all the backdoors and security stuff, I've never had a virus accidently put on here (though I have had a few been put on by me, don't ask), never been hacked, and believe that half of the problems with you people
You people? Which people?

is that you donut know how to properly take care of a computer, and so ya, $#!t happens. Ok, so MS doesn't make their stuff foolproof.
No, they don't. They then release bug notices so that Skript Kiddies can google for hacking utilities, but don't write a patch for eons... Where as with an open OS, there would be a patch the day after the problem is known.

Who does? I bet that if as many people used Apple software, they'd find bugs in it too. Point is, that people don't, so they don't find them.
And even more bugs ARE found in Linux... Because people READ the code, see the issue and fix it -- sometimes before any exploits have actually been encountered.

Windows was built originally to be a single user operating system that exists outside of any kind of network. DOS, Windows 3.1, Windows 95 were all made with the intent that one user would use them. While Unix based systems were built for networking, and multiuser environments years and years ago. There were many problems with the first systems, but they were roughed out -- as all of this was new. Windows NT, Windows 2000 and Windows XP all had to be rebuilt from the ground up to take into consideration things Unix/Linux/BSD were doing for years. Linux, Unix and BSD install with most users having only basic permissions... Windows, even newer versions, default to highest permissions for the primary user. The result of this is that average users of Linux are more secure from exploits and even user errors that take down their systems. The average user of Windows wants a system that works, and most don't even realize when they've been infected by adware, spyware or other malware. And the whole system becomes infected.

In the case of Unix/Linux, and average user might render his account useless -- but unless he's running as root -- he probably can't accidently infect the whole computer with malware. This is why most hosting companies run Unix or Linux. This is why most large companies servers are running Linux/Unix -- even if their desktops are Windows.

No system is 100% secure, no user is 100% safe... So, the other real issue with windows is when something that they know is broken gets fixed. With windows, users report errors to MS, MS looks into it, verifies that "yes there is an error," publicly posts the issue so that consumers know of it's existence (if they bother to check), and begin working on a patch. The patch turnaround time is horrible, no one is able to fix it themselves because the source is closed and every skript kiddie is begging Crakers to write a utility that takes advantage of the bug thats been reported. In FOSS, there would be a host of geeks working on the issue, a few dozen "patches" to the problem that kludge the system together, people look through the code of the patches, find the "best" one and include it in the source tree for the distro... Sometimes the whole thing takes mere hours, others longer... But always faster than MS could.

Moreover, why buy a car, when I can own a free tank? (anyone still have a link to that article).

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My Site

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NOP
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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2005 01:01      Profile for NOP     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Luke Skywalker:
Plus there isn't really a lot of software for Apple and also with that, hackers and viruses arent enabled or targeted for Apple stuff.

I recall seeing a virus on a Mac back in about '92. It didn't actually do anything as it was written to exploit System 6 at a time when I was running System 7. This was back in the day when very few people had Macs attached to the internet, so it was very unlikely that they could get hacked and viruses had to spread by disk rather than via the 'net. Now more people have Macs than back then, almost all of them get attached to the internet at some point and yet there are fewer (read: ~0) viruses for them, and they don't get hacked. Odd.
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jordanv
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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2005 02:06      Profile for jordanv     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
OSX shows how to make software that even morons can use, while still keeping it safe.
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Serenak

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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2005 05:04      Profile for Serenak     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Luke,

Your comments on Apple are so far off base I can't even be bothered to list how wrong you are....

[devil wand]

Edited to remove stupid goof....

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"So if you want my address - it's No. 1 at the end of the bar, where I sit with the broken angels, clutching at straws and nursing my scars..."

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CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2005 05:36      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have both Windoze and Linux running in the home. I keep the Win systems for the kids and the wife. My 'nix box is for me. I am very partial to Linux though Windows does have more software I need for doing things.

That said, I have yet to run a spyware or virus clean up on my Linux boxen. I have not had to shut it down in weeks. And I have not needed to run multiple programs to keep my system clean.

Where my Win boxes(XP and 2K) are under regular house cleaning. From temp files to spyware. And updates, let's not get started on updates.

Yes I will use MS stuff, for ease of use, and program compatability. But if I need to do anything with true stability I use Linux.

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Does he know our big secret?
Has one of us confessed?
'Bout the wires circuits and motors
Buried in our chest

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Mac D
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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2005 06:12      Profile for Mac D     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I love my Mac [hearts] My wife (Not knowing much about computers when I met her) Now hates to use anything but Macs. She beged me to get a Mini because "Their soooo cute" We have the 3 "big ones" running here, SuSe Linux, OSX and Winblows. We use the windows for one game and thats it. Now if EE would come out for the Mac we wouldn't need windows at all.

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There's nothing wrong with me, This is how I'm supposed to be.

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2005 09:06      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm not sufficiently bored to prepare a rebuttal. For now, I'll mostly agree with GM's comments, as I mostly take the Linux side of things - I could add a thing or two about Mac OS X's security, but I agree with Serenak that it's a silly effort.

Suffice it to say, you ("Luke") have no clue about Windows...

And as a reference point, let me include my current UA string:
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.7) Gecko/20050414 Firefox/1.0.3

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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magefile
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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2005 10:13      Profile for magefile     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Erm ... I agree with GM and dman, but I'd like to point out that UA string means very little - on a board where people are geeks, and in a post where you're describing your technical prowess, it means almost nothing.

After all, my UA occasionally informs people that I'm running Firefox on a Commodore64, but (despite Con-tiki) that is quite obviously not the case.

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Let them be stupid - the market will sort it out.

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Rimaraf
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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2005 10:37      Profile for Rimaraf   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by nerdwithnofriends:

If microsoft adopted a unix-type platform (posix/sus standards, etc)...

Microsoft tried the UNIX route once, long ago, it was called Xenix. Eventually they passed it on to what is now SCO.

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blog

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maximile

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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2005 10:44      Profile for maximile   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I like to use the best software for the job I want to do. This means that I have a Mac, on which I run Photoshop, Final Cut and some 3d packages.

I also have MS Word installed. I think that they did a great job on the Mac version, and for a time it was the best word processor I could find. I would not have changed if it weren't for the fact that Pages has one an awesome feature that is great for writing screenplays - the "Following Paragraph Style" thing.

I try to avoid Microsoft products on principle, but there're times when usefulness has to come first.

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2005 12:34      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by magefile:
Erm ... I agree with GM and dman, but I'd like to point out that UA string means very little - on a board where people are geeks, and in a post where you're describing your technical prowess, it means almost nothing.

After all, my UA occasionally informs people that I'm running Firefox on a Commodore64, but (despite Con-tiki) that is quite obviously not the case.

Yes, I know...but it's my real UA string at the moment. [Smile] The only time I spoof the string is for sites that are programmed by [insert expletives here]. (The kind who *insist* on IE, for no terribly good reason, except their incompetence.)

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2005 13:27      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Mr Skywalker is partly right, here are bugs and security flaws in any operating system.

But he's wrong in his assumption that OS X or Linux are just as bad, but the probems get less attention because of the smaller user base.

There are 2 basic problems with Windoze...

1. It started out as a single user, single tasking operating system. Multitaking and multi user were added later, as afterthoughts. They tried not to break too many existing applications, or 'inconvenience' the users. They failed.

After months of stuffing about trying to get Windoze XP working 'the right way' I finally gave up, and gave my user account 'administrator' rights. It was the only way to get all of my legacy apps to work propery, but it also leaves me wide open to viruses and trojans.

In contrast, the unices have been multi-user/multi-tasking from the dawn of time, the mechanisms needed to make it work smoothly were designed in at the start, and they work.

2. Windoze has suffered badly from 'feature bloat'. ODBC, OLE, R2D2, you name it, some marketing droid has suggested it, and it got added to the OS. Even Microsoft don't know what half of that stuff does anymore, or which bits depend on which.

There was a story a while back about a MS subsidiary who were making the forced conversion from BSD to Windoze. For performance and stability, they needed to eliminate all the unused crud, and they called in the experts from Redmond to help. Months later, they gave up. Even the 'experts' couldn't work out which bits rely on which.

In comparison, the unices are typically fairly lean and mean. Sure, you can build a Debian system with all 8000 packages installed, but that's your choice, not something forced on you by lazy and incompetent OS 'designers' (for want of a better word). If you want, you can also build a 'bare bones' (but quite useable) system that fits in 50 MB and boots nicely from a USB key.

And when you install a Debian package, the package manager knows about all of the dependancies, and will tell you which other packages are needed to make it work.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Zargof McBain
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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2005 14:36      Profile for Zargof McBain     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
There is another reason why MS has such a problem with security that no-one has mentioned. The fact is all the MS software is so tightly coupled with the OS. This means that if there is a flaw in Outlook or IE then it can have much more devastating effects on the system.

If there was a problem with say Thunderbird, I suspect the worst that could happen is it would corrupt the user's mailbox. Unfortunate, but not disasterous.

Of course the other problem with MS is that they seem to user their customers as beta testers.

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Smile. It makes people wonder what you're thinking

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2005 14:37      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:

There was a story a while back about a MS subsidiary who were making the forced conversion from BSD to Windoze. For performance and stability, they needed to eliminate all the unused crud, and they called in the experts from Redmond to help. Months later, they gave up. Even the 'experts' couldn't work out which bits rely on which.

That would be Hotmail. [Big Grin]

Man, the employees there were pissed off about that mess, IIRC. I believe their internal stuff is/was still running Solaris for a long time after that, though.

Links:
http://seclists.org/lists/isn/2001/Dec/0070.html
http://www.securityoffice.net/mssecrets/hotmail.html

Some of this information is a bit dated, and perhaps they've finally made the move. That, or they just said "fsck it, this works well...the front end runs Windows, and that's good enough for us."

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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