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Author Topic: I swear, I'm going to be booted or killed...
Tut-an-Geek

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Icon 1 posted January 27, 2005 13:51      Profile for Tut-an-Geek   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Just as an FYI, completely unrelated to the matter:

There are some good monopolies out there. Just ask Teddy Roosevelt (ie, US Steel trustbusting by Taft). Monopolies are bad if they abuse their power, but are fine if they don't, and can in fact be good if they use their power to help the consumer.

Just a few thoughts...

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angryjungman

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Icon 1 posted January 27, 2005 14:35      Profile for angryjungman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm a bit late to this thread, but as a newly converted Mac user, I thought I'd weight in with my thoughts.

I used to absolutely, totally look down on Macs. To be quite honest, I had no reason to, as I had only used one in my life [my high school band director had one in his office]. I don't remember what model it was, but it was slow and didn't have a colour monitor.

Fast forward to about six months ago. I was talking with some GC folks on IRC [most notably Spiderman] and decided to buy a used G4 tower from eBay. Just to try it out. I was so enamoured with how well OS X worked that 2 or 3 months later I bought a brand new Powerbook. I also just ordered a MacMini.

I think OS X is great. For me, it's Unix that works easily and in a user-friendly fashion. Like Dman said, I can run my familiar Linux/Unix stuff and have the ease of use that Apple is famous for.

That's my $0.02 [that would be about 0.015CA]

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Meh.

Posts: 633 | From: princeton, nj | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
csk

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Icon 1 posted January 27, 2005 16:17      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by angryjungman:
Fast forward to about six months ago. I was talking with some GC folks on IRC [most notably Spiderman] and decided to buy a used G4 tower from eBay. Just to try it out. I was so enamoured with how well OS X worked that 2 or 3 months later I bought a brand new Powerbook. I also just ordered a MacMini.

So, the moral of this story is, don't hang around IRC, or you'll end up buying a whole bunch of computer hardware [Razz]

--------------------
6 weeks to go!

Posts: 4455 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
angryjungman

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Icon 1 posted January 27, 2005 16:37      Profile for angryjungman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by csk:
quote:
Originally posted by angryjungman:
Fast forward to about six months ago. I was talking with some GC folks on IRC [most notably Spiderman] and decided to buy a used G4 tower from eBay. Just to try it out. I was so enamoured with how well OS X worked that 2 or 3 months later I bought a brand new Powerbook. I also just ordered a MacMini.

So, the moral of this story is, don't hang around IRC, or you'll end up buying a whole bunch of computer hardware [Razz]
Exactly. [Big Grin]

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Meh.

Posts: 633 | From: princeton, nj | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Serenak

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Icon 1 posted January 27, 2005 17:41      Profile for Serenak     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hey!

I've never done IRC, that didn't stop me having a house full of old computer s**t (er.. incredibly valuable classic hardware and peripherals...)

Mostly Mac (can't bear to chuck it if it still works) but some PC stuff too (yeah - I'll fix it up soon and give the damn stuff away... or perhaps I'll try FreeBSD on it...)

Anyone interested in the pile of old stuff cluttering up my house welcome to enquire... (like that's gonna work - NOT)

C'mon I gotta try here...

Back on topic - I work with Mac, I love Mac, OS X seriously brought Mac into the 21st C...

Longhorn in 2006-7 minus half its touted features - sounds like Apple in the wilderness years (Copland? (wasn't that its codename?) Next Gen OS lost in confusion of developers not sure how/where to go next).

Hell, what goes around comes around... "Sometimes you're ahead, sometimes you're behind...)

BTW...

Bill G was on the TV News here with Bono and the PM giving cash for Africa... Whatever else I think about the guy I can't really knock that (altough it isn't like he can't afford it, I know)

Actually although I loathe what MS stands for and detest their 3rd rate and derivative OS's etc. Bill still comes well up in my Top 10 fantasy dinner guest list....

--------------------
"So if you want my address - it's No. 1 at the end of the bar, where I sit with the broken angels, clutching at straws and nursing my scars..."

Posts: 1936 | From: Suffolk England | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
magefile
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Icon 1 posted January 27, 2005 19:44      Profile for magefile     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I, too, hated OS 9 and previous. But I really like OS X. It wasn't just the lack of a command line, though - it was that the beige boxes had the last decent mice until the OS X boxes. The clear mice were OK (ish ...), but the iMac mouses were unergonomic.
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supergoo

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Icon 1 posted January 27, 2005 23:17      Profile for supergoo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:
Oh, and I will add an hypothesis as to why Mac people are elitist. The attitude might be a part of self-defense.

Hm, no wonder I get so defensive when people tell me "oh MACS SUK."

It's human nature to get defensive when people insult you or something you really like. I really like Apple computers mainly because they're easy--they allow me to do what I want without weeping and gnashing of teeth. Sure, they aren't too great for gaming, but I'm not a gamer
[Razz] . I can deal with comments like "PCs have a larger software selection," or "I just don't like macs because I'm not used to the interface;" these are legitimate reasons why people would prefer a PC over a mac.

What I really can't stand is MACS SUK.

In trying to counter the eloquent argument of MACS SUK, I look like an elitist snob standing up in defense of my beloved Apple. So Oz, this may be part of the reason mac users appear this way.

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Y los sueños, sueños son.

Posts: 675 | From: Boston 'burbs | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Oz, the Wizard of
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Icon 1 posted January 27, 2005 23:23      Profile for Oz, the Wizard of   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by supergoo:
In trying to counter the eloquent argument of MACS SUK, I look like an elitist snob standing up in defense of my beloved Apple. So Oz, this may be part of the reason mac users appear this way.

In my defense, I'm not a 'MACS SUK' sort of person, really. Oddly enough, it's not the platform, the software, or anything about Apples that put me off, it's the occasional fanatic. But those are fewer and farther between, particularly after this thread.

And people are known to occasionaly put me off, in general. [Razz]

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Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!

Posts: 707 | From: The Emerald City | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
SpikeSpiegel
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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2005 12:43      Profile for SpikeSpiegel     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tut-an-Geek:
Just as an FYI, completely unrelated to the matter:

There are some good monopolies out there. Just ask Teddy Roosevelt (ie, US Steel trustbusting by Taft). Monopolies are bad if they abuse their power, but are fine if they don't, and can in fact be good if they use their power to help the consumer.

Just a few thoughts...

hey! i thought you hadnt learned anything in your history class this year... [devil wand]

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its been a while

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2005 12:57      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by magefile:
the iMac mouses were unergonomic.

Quite agree (except I'd call them 'mice').

The 'hockey-puck' mouse on the original iMac was particularly bad.
I've replaced both of the mice that came with my iMacs, with PC-style scroll-wheel ones.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Serenak

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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2005 14:10      Profile for Serenak     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Even his Steveness admitted that the Hockey Puck Mouse was "universally loathed" - chalk that one up to form over function I guess...

BTW I *genuinely* love my one/no button Mac mice (above excluded) and personally loathe 2/3/5+ button devices (they SUK, your all gay (sic), </joke>) but that's just me - we're all different and that means some of you like things I can't stand and vice versa (and that is as true for films, music, literature, sexual practices, etc... just as much as OSs and hardware...)

I think the Mac is the best hardware/software combination available (especially for what I do) but if you think differently that's fine too - let's talk sense and stop this childish "my kit's better than yours and if you can't see it 'your gay'...

BTW even I (slavering MacBoy that I am) know that there are areas where other hardware and OS solutions may be a better choice... (can't think of any right now though... [Wink]

See, at least here at GC you can voice an opinion and not have the discussion descend into a slanging match... (one up to GCers I'd say...)

[Smile]

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"So if you want my address - it's No. 1 at the end of the bar, where I sit with the broken angels, clutching at straws and nursing my scars..."

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2005 06:54      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Serenak:
BTW I *genuinely* love my one/no button Mac mice (above excluded) and personally loathe 2/3/5+ button devices (they SUK, your all gay (sic), </joke>)

I feel the opposite way. The thing that annoys me most about the soap bar mouse is the way that the cable can get caught under the front of the mouse and stop you clicking - grrr. I also think that for most people a scroll wheel and an extra button is better.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2005 09:12      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
Until now, I didn't know that lynx could do SSL*! For that matter, I didn't know that links-ssl existed either. I'm going to have fun now!!!!

*I was puzzled when I first saw a /. comment link to that article, as I thought you'd be a moron to use insecure HTTP to do a monetary transfer, but lo and behold, you can do HTTPS with it. Sweetness!

I still remember the day I was like, "hm.. I wonder if" apt-get install lynx-ssl

[Eek!] it works!

*hugs* lynx.

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GregoryD
Maximum Newbie
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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2005 18:06      Profile for GregoryD     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
And now for the short answer:

Macs are built to be appliances. They have always had ultra-simple UIs that made them accessible to the English majors and the art nerds who otherwise wouldn't know a keyboard from a keychain. Since Apple controls the hardware, they are also uniformly white and pretty, much like their blindingly bright GUI. It's sort of like owning Scandinavian furniture. They aren't any more comfortable, they are markedly more expensive, and it takes months for them to deliver products that have the exact same function as cheaper stuff that you can buy anywhere. People can talk up OS X all they like, but the truth of the matter is that Mac snobbery goes back YEARS.

Which isn't to say that some of it isn't warranted. The graphic programs for the Mac were far ahead of their Windows counterparts for a long while.

Nowadays?

Owning a Mac means you own a pretty box, and if it isn't a Mac Mini, a pretty, expensive box. I don't know of anything that a Mac can do that a Windows or Linux or *BSD x86 based box can't.

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 2 posted February 07, 2005 18:18      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You neglected to mention:

The Mac OS immunity to viri.

The publishing/graphic design community almost exclusive use of Mac.

The GUI was an Apple innovation.

Educational software and Special needs software is most widly available for the Mac OS.

The Mac OS doesn't require daily/weekly upgrades to patch vulnerability.

Apple doesn't 'bundle' applications forcing users into using a browser/email client/productivity suite.

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(!) (T) = 8-D

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2005 18:29      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
The GUI was an Apple innovation.

I think you mean Apple stole the idea from Xerox bofore Microsoft stole it from Apple.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2005 18:30      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What the hell is a 'Xerox'?

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(!) (T) = 8-D

Posts: 5471 | From: One of the drones from sector 7G | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2005 18:45      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm afraid I must call 'bullshit' on this.

Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
You neglected to mention:

The Mac OS immunity to viri.

Only because the bad people don't care about OS X's small market share. It is not "immune" to virii - stupid people will continue to get viruses, OS X just requires a bit more social engineering ("Free Natalie Portman pictures," anyone?).

The publishing/graphic design community almost exclusive use of Mac.
Only because of tradition. The artists and writers demand it because they've used it for ages, and are comfortable with it. I will admit that it may be conducive to productive work for them, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's any better than being extremely productive on other platforms. There are people who can probably bang out high-quality articles in LaTeX on Linux faster than some people can in PageMaker on a Mac. [Wink]

The GUI was an Apple innovation.
No fscking way is that true - see TFD's comment.

Educational software and Special needs software is most widly available for the Mac OS.
Really?
[morpheus]Show me[/morpheus]
(small time developers tend to be able to produce software more inexpensively on a PC, due to the crappy programming it allows for, and that people are accustomed to using.)

The Mac OS doesn't require daily/weekly upgrades to patch vulnerability.
Actually, a number of my colleagues and I have found that Apple is worse than Microsoft these days about releasing patches - they put out an insanely large number of patches and security updates last year.

Apple doesn't 'bundle' applications forcing users into using a browser/email client/productivity suite.
It bundles software, but you're really not forced into using it. See my lengthy post about this. Do keep in mind that many users just use whatever is put in front of them.

Thank you, and have a nice day. [Smile]

--------------------
There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2005 18:56      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
What the hell is a 'Xerox'?

The Xerox Star which had a GUI when the Macintosh was just a twinkle in Apples eye. Apple poached several team members to work on the Lisa and later the Macintosh.

Then there was the Lilith which never made it out of academia, but was a very nice machine in its day.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2005 19:17      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
I'm afraid I must call 'bullshit' on this.

I call bullshit on (most of) your bullshit.

quote:

Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
You neglected to mention:

The Mac OS immunity to viri.

Only because the bad people don't care about OS X's small market share. It is not "immune" to virii - stupid people will continue to get viruses, OS X just requires a bit more social engineering ("Free Natalie Portman pictures," anyone?).

I have made a decent living working (Hardware and Networking) on Macs for well over 10 years. I've never seen a virus on a single mac. Why the hell would any loser write a virus, let alone for 3% of the machines running in the world. Would you be happier if I said pretty much immuned?

quote:

The publishing/graphic design community almost exclusive use of Mac.
Only because of tradition. The artists and writers demand it because they've used it for ages, and are comfortable with it. I will admit that it may be conducive to productive work for them, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's any better than being extremely productive on other platforms. There are people who can probably bang out high-quality articles in LaTeX on Linux faster than some people can in PageMaker on a Mac. [Wink]


I think we are making the same point. They are using Mac (I've even seen the Mac clones can't recall the name right now.....Star something) by choice, tradition or not. It isn't like one day some designed proclaimed 'From this day forth all decent designers will use the Mac'

quote:

The GUI was an Apple innovation.
No fscking way is that true - see TFD's comment.


Ok
quote:

Educational software and Special needs software is most widly available for the Mac OS.
Really?
[morpheus]Show me[/morpheus]
(small time developers tend to be able to produce software more inexpensively on a PC, due to the crappy programming it allows for, and that people are accustomed to using.)

Come to my work, I'll show you everything you need to know

quote:

The Mac OS doesn't require daily/weekly upgrades to patch vulnerability.
Actually, a number of my colleagues and I have found that Apple is worse than Microsoft these days about releasing patches - they put out an insanely large number of patches and security updates last year.

I'd like to see some numbers.

quote:

Apple doesn't 'bundle' applications forcing users into using a browser/email client/productivity suite.
It bundles software, but you're really not forced into using it. See my lengthy post about this. Do keep in mind that many users just use whatever is put in front of them.

Now you're just picking at words.

Let me say this. I don't own a Mac. Never would. I use 'em at work but it ends there.

--------------------
(!) (T) = 8-D

Posts: 5471 | From: One of the drones from sector 7G | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
GregoryD
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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2005 20:32      Profile for GregoryD     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I wouldn't say I'd never own one, because slap a mac mini in a small nook with a flat panel screen and a slide out keyboard with some airports around da house and you've got yerself a household-wide jukebox.

I see some of the Cap'ns points as well, I just don't think that most of them are the ones an average mac user would give.

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2005 20:38      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Vic: I'll agree more with the above post. [Smile]
The "Apple is utterly immune, and utterly perfect" argument never sits right with me, and I usually feel compelled to argue against it. [Big Grin]

Personally, I don't believe I've ever seen a Mac with a virus on it, but I'm glad that this time, you stated the *reason* for it. I think I will laugh in the face of the first person I see get a virus on their Mac. [Razz]

BTW:
http://www.google.com/search?q=+Security+Update+2004+site:www.apple.com+inurl:downloads
Certainly there are duplicates, for the various versions of OS X there, but there's hardly a shortage of updates there.

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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Tech Angel
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Icon 1 posted February 12, 2005 01:19      Profile for Tech Angel     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:

quote:

Educational software and Special needs software is most widly available for the Mac OS.
Really?
[morpheus]Show me[/morpheus]
(small time developers tend to be able to produce software more inexpensively on a PC, due to the crappy programming it allows for, and that people are accustomed to using.)

Come to my work, I'll show you everything you need to know

Having worked for nearly 20 years in the field of assistive technology (hardware and software and jerryrigged-from-junk-ware), I know that at one time, special needs software was one of the few areas where you would find product literature which proudly said "Soon to be available for Windows, too!" Regrettably, that's not the case anymore (and hasn't been for about 10 years). It really pains me to have to direct people with certain disabilities to a PC solution because what they need is "not available for Macintosh".

But Apple is coming back, even to the point of having vendor booths and making presentations at assistive tech trade shows and conferences. The VoiceOver interface built into Tiger will be a big step forward in this direction. Apple will no longer have to say to schools "Buy our iMacs and eMacs and iBooks for your students!" all the while knowing that, because no company currently makes screenreader software for OS X, these Macs are inaccessible to blind students and thus the schools risk being noncompliant with federal law. Now they'll have a different argument: "Such software for PCs costs around $1000; with a Mac, it's built into the OS!"

I'll be a happy camper once iListen and/or ViaVoice mature or evolve to the level of Dragon NaturallySpeaking (or if a Mac version of Dragon is released). For virtually every other disability need I encounter, I can do just fine with the Mac offerings.

--------------------
We must be the change we want to see in the world. -Mahatma Ghandi

Posts: 330 | From: the Great State of Confusion | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged


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