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T O P I C     R E V I E W
Colonel Panic
Member # 1200
 - posted March 19, 2008 17:38
Hillary Clinton, the only candidate for President who makes George W Bush look comparatively honest, is once again fibbing about the Michigan Re-Vote.

While she talks about principles of Democracy, the Re-Vote she wants is anything but democratic. It's more like Saddam Hussein.

Hillary says she wants everybody in Michigan to vote. But that is a lie. Hillary does not want the Democratic Party members and Independent voters who went out and made their votes count in the only election that did count on January 15th in Michigan: The Republican Party Primary.

Overwhelmingly, those voters are Obama supporters. And Hillary does not want Obama voters voting in the Re-Vote.

There are two rules operating here. The first rule says MIchigan Democratic Party Primary will not count, because Michigan voted a rule about the date the election was held. The second rule is one that would not allow people who voted in the Republican Party because their votes would not count in the Democratic Party.

The second rule is a contract. Offer. Acceptance. Legal Validity. Consideration. Contract with the people who ventured out in crappy weather in January and voted.

Hillary proposes breaking that contract and only obeying the first rule. That would bring a lawsuit from named disenfranchised voters who participated in the execution of this contract. And that suit would end up in Federal Court, and eventually end up being decided by the same Supreme Court that decided the 2000 election.

Good going Hillary -- a baldfaced liar.

The Michigan Legislature understands they made a law and now they must abide by it. That is not being reported.

Colonel Panic
Member # 1959
 - posted March 19, 2008 21:09
And it will cost an estimated $8-$10 million [Eek!] I voted the 1st time around.

That money could be used for so many more important things!

From woodtv.com

$12M 'guaranteed' for primary do-over
Posted: March 19, 2008 05:39 PM
Updated: March 19, 2008 11:01 PM
Also on WOODTV.com
Clinton pushes for Michigan primary do-over

LANSING, Mich. (WOOD) -- The governors of New Jersey and Pennsylvania have issued a statement that if there is a Michigan Democratic primary do-over then it will be paid for, guaranteed.

The Michigan Secretary of State office has estimated the election will cost $8-$10 million.

Governor Jon Corzine (NJ) and Governor Edward Rendell (PA) say they have solicited guarantors to support proposed legislation for the Michigan Presidential Primary Administration Fund. Those behind this move say they will deposit $12 million into the fund.

The governors say they "remain firm in our support of this critical effort and believe it is important not only to the people of Michigan and Florida, but also to the national Democratic party and to the future of our great nation."

A list of those prepared to serve as guarantors -

-- Gov. Corzine

-- Calvin C. Fayard Jr. - an attorney in Denham Springs, Louisiana and a member of Sen. Clinton's campaign finance team

-- John Eddie Williams, Jr. - an attorney in Houston, Texas

-- Fred Eychaner - of Chicago, president of Newsweb Corp. and a donor to Sen. Clinton's campaign

-- John Catsimatidis - a supermarket mogul from New York and a member of Sen. Clinton's campaign finance team

-- Bernard Schwartz - a New York businessman and a member of Sen. Clinton's campaign finance team

-- Brooke Garber Neidich - a New York philanthropist and a donor to Sen. Clinton's campaign

-- Roger Altman - of New York, an investment banker and senior economic advisor for the Sen. Clinton campaign

-- Haim Saban - of Los Angeles, a media entreprenuer and a member of Sen. Clinton's campaign finance team
Member # 1659
 - posted March 20, 2008 02:00
__________________________ FTM as they say in news follow the money.
Member # 3067
 - posted March 20, 2008 06:49
It's hardly the first time the Democrats have rigged a primary election in Michigan. In 1998 they blamed Republicans voting in the Democratic Party primary for nominating Fieger for governor, though how Republicans got Fieger to win Detroit was never explained. In 2000 they went with a caucus system, the only D you could vote for in the primary was LaRouch, so they were able to both prevent those mythical evil Detroit Republicans from throwing the Dem primary and vote en masse in the Republican primary. Now the Dems are worried that if they don't block people who voted in the Republican primary from voting in this new we-really-mean-it-this-time Dem primary that some Obama supporters might want a little payback. Boo-hoo, shouldn't have disenfranchised your own people the first time around in an obvious attempt to keep Detroit from nominating Obama.
Member # 4441
 - posted March 20, 2008 08:58
To use a common example, a party has technically rigged an election any time gerrymandering has taken place - and it's happened a lot in the past. That's what you get when the people making the laws are the ones running for office.

Now, the thing about Michigan is that it broke the party rules by holding the election prior to Super Tuesday. Furthermore, Obama was not even on the ballot. At this point, even a recounted primary would have screwed up results, so I don't think it makes sense to redo them.

The thing I hate about Clinton is that she is making it quite clear that she intends to win this race whatever the cost. I don't want someone who will stoop so low to win; no moral integrity in the election means no moral integrity during the Presidency either.
Member # 2071
 - posted March 20, 2008 16:47
There is an alternative view, that the media are giving you fairy stories that Obama is some saintly knight in shining armour and Hillary the wicked witch of the west, whereas they are of course both human beings with their own strengths and weaknesses. Neither campaign has conducted itself in a morally irreproachable way, but that should be no surprise. Politics is a rough business. This hatred of the Clintons first whipped up by the far right all those years ago is an unedifying frenzy that feeds on itself. It also says to me that in America while your fairly recent past makes you hypersensitive to any suggestion of racism, misogyny and good old fashioned sexism are absolutely fine.

I am not a Hillary cheerleader, and do not favour either candidate over the other. On a more positive note I was particularly impressed with Obama's thoughtful recent speech on race and society.
Colonel Panic
Member # 1200
 - posted March 20, 2008 20:13

I've been active in politics, in either the Republican party or Democratic party since I was 18.

Prior to moving to Michigan, I lived in Iowa, where I worked as a Precinct Captain and ran one of those world-famous Iowa Caucuses.

I might know a little bit more about American politics than you. You think?

(Iowa, by the way, has the highest literacy rate in the USA, just in case you think the citizens of the state are a bunch of illiterate, slack-jawed, booger-sucking, pig-screwing farmers).

I lived five minutes away from the Iowa Democratic Party headquarters, which is located immediately across from the
Des Moines International Airport. Every time an airplane landed with a Presidential candidate I'd get a call to show up for a photo op. I've spent a half hour speaking with anyone in the Democratic Party who wanted to be President over the last 8 years.

And you're suggesting that meeting a liar in person had much less effect than a newspaper telling me she was a liar?

I also have some dandy letters from the likes of Senator Carl Levin and Governor Jennifer Granholm suggesting they know better than voters, and we should just let Hillary have her way. This was a whack job by Hillary and some back-room power brokers on the Michigan voter. You understand?

Read the posts from the folks who live here in Michigan and you'll see they are not happy with Hillary's antics either. How do you know so much living over on your side of the pond?

I've spent the last week writing a lot of the Michigan State legislators to suggest they vote against the "Coronation of Hillary" act, otherwise they're careers were over if they let this **** have her way. You understand? And guess what? They received enough letters to vote against Hillary's War on Democracy. Democracy won again -- just like in 1776 and 1812, got that?

And for race relations in this country, don't you live in the land that Knighted some boys who sang the praises of a slave-trading anti-abolitionist?


Is the real reason you have a problem, Cali, with Barack Obama, is that you are a freaking racist?

Colonel Panic
Member # 1659
 - posted March 21, 2008 02:48
________________________ Hi Yall, as Bilery would say. Back last fall when the DNC stated that Mich. would lose its delegates if the election was moved up, I wrote to the DNC and stated in no uncertain terms that if Bilery was the candidate I would have to vote straight ticket Republican. As a long time union member this is hard to do, I worked as a union shop committee person but finally would not take the politics of staying in office, I often locked horns with the higher ups.

So the gist is Super delegates may cost the Dems the election or at least my vote. One thing the internet has brought about is how much easier it is to check some ones voting record.
Ugh, MightyClub
Member # 3112
 - posted March 21, 2008 09:26
Colonel, your reply to Calli was fairly aggressive and a little out of line, if I may say so. Looking over your original post I didn't find any indication that you had met Hillary in person, nor any hint that your opinion is based on anything other than the news reports the rest of us are reading. I would certainly agree that the impression you get from meeting someone in person is more accurate than an impression based on second- and third-hand information. But you can't fault Calli for not knowing you spoke from first-hand information.

If nothing else, kindly refrain from baseless attacks on the character of other board members.
Member # 123
 - posted March 21, 2008 09:46
If nothing else, kindly refrain from baseless attacks on the character of other board members.


Colonel Panic, I don't know where that came from, but it's a loaded question that shoots your own arguments in the foot.


Member # 1659
 - posted March 21, 2008 10:27
_________________________ Snaggy I followed your link, But I am still puzzled. Where do Hillery and Billery buy their teflon rain coats?

I know that this is not the joke forum but.

Bill and the misses pulled into a full service gas station and while the attendant was pumping the gas and cleaning the glass Bill noticed that it was one of Billeries former boy friends. Isn't ironic that I became President and he is still pumping gas. No it isn't Billery replyed if I had married him he would be PRESIDENT.
Member # 2071
 - posted March 21, 2008 16:24
Well thank you everyone but pish and tush! I am not discomfited by the Colonel, and actually I don't think he meant to cause me offence. Even Charles Manson who read many things into the Beatles' lyrics, did not realise that "Penny Lane" was a secret hymn to the slave trade! The Colonel is an ironist, and an intelligent man, so I assume he is sending himself up here. The alternative explanation is too awful even to contemplate! [Wink] As to whether I am a racist, that is not for me to judge, but the people I distrust most are those that deny any taint of racism whatsoever, as xenophobia and racism are incipient in all of us. So long as humans remain co-operative social animals who form themselves into groups, communities and countries, potential racism and xenophobia lies within all of us. It is the dark flip side to virtues like loyalty and patriotism that we rightly cherish. Any time I express views that differ from his, the good colonel always maintains that, as a foreigner, I have no understanding of US society and politics. My perspective is that of an outsider, but sometimes you see things from the outside that those inside the maelstrom cannot. And like the colonel, I have had a more than passing interest in politics for some years.

And Colonel I really don't have a problem with Obama, even though I don't think he is the Messiah, but I just don't know if he has what it takes to be President. There is a long history of Washington outsider presidential candidates. Most fall on their way to the nomination, those that make the nomination (e.g McGovern) usually get beat, and those few that make all the way to the White House like Jimmy Carter are often ineffectual and disappointing presidents. If you strip the mystique of martyrdom away from JFK, he too had a disappointing record. Even the Cuban missile crisis, his finest hour, was a direct result of his inexperience and mishandling of the summit with Kruschev which preceded it, and which gave Kruschev the mistaken impression that JFK was a patsy. It took his successor LBJ (to whom JFK also kindly bequeathed the Vietnam war), a wily and tough political operator, to get the civil rights legislation through congress. Obama may be different, but it's a gamble, perhaps that's what he means by the audacity of hope. I can see in this context how he might be more attractive to the right than Hillary, or even McCain. I believe that if McCain wins it it would be worse for the extreme right in the Republican Party than if Obama does, as he clearly recognises them as the whack jobs that they are and will aim to distance himself and his party from them as far as possible. Since garlicguy supports the most extreme candidate of all, Ron Paul, I suspect that this may be what actually lies behind his quite virulent dislike of McCain. So the extreme right will probably lose the next election, but still control the Republican Party.

If you cast your mind back to the last two presidential elections, you may recall that the Republican candidate was the scion of an East Coast patrician family who had erased that past by reinventing himself as folksy Texan country boy, with a string of business failures to his name, a former alcoholic who only managed to turn his life around by a commitment to religion so utter that it looked like a crutch. This history would suggest to me at least some unresolved psychological issues, yet the story told by your media in each election was of the character failings of the other candidate, nobody wanted to believe anything bad about GWB. Now it seems we are getting exactly the same fairy story except that it's Obama who nobody wants to believe anything bad about. I think it's all rather patronising and infantile, and the electorate and media should both grow up. I'm not being a smug European either. Politics and the media in the UK are just as trivial and offensive.
Member # 1659
 - posted March 22, 2008 02:24
_________________________ Callipygous I must remind you that William Jefferson Clinton was also an outsider, Gov. of AK.

The things that both outsiders did, Carter and Clinton was to get the Fed. budget under control, no small task Jimmy lost an election for it but he started the medicine.

I may take heat for this. Clinton /McCain I would vote McCain.

Obabma/McCain I would vote for Obama.

By the by all three candidates are now insiders as they are all Senators.

If Huckaby had not been such a "Good Book Thumper", I liked his flat sales tax or Vat instead of an income tax. It would give me pleasure to Know that Bill Gates and Warron Buffet would be taxed at the same rate as their household help.
Member # 3166
 - posted March 22, 2008 10:06
Ron Paul.

[Wink] gg
The Famous Druid
Member # 1769
 - posted March 22, 2008 14:19
If you're all looking for a real Washington 'outsider', I'd reluctantly make myself available.

Presidential decree #1 would be... "Stop driving on the wrong side of the road".
Member # 1659
 - posted March 22, 2008 16:20
___________________________ garlicguy

Again Ron Paul is an insider.

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