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T O P I C R E V I E W
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Raging Dragon
Member # 2812
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 posted January 19, 2005 00:06
I found this on LGF, or www.littlegreenfootballs.com I'm curious what people think.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/Printer&cid=1105992533340&p=1006953079845
If the link doesn't work, I'll copy and paste it here.
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spungo
Member # 1089
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posted January 19, 2005 01:40
Filth. Lies. Scum. Nuke the right, I say. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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greycat
Member # 945
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posted January 19, 2005 05:55
Oh, yeah, I see... all the stories about how the Israelis kidnap Palestinian children and bulldoze Palestinian homes are just bias because the reporters are Palestinians. Uh huh. I suppose if you had Israeli reporters inside the West Bank you'd see that the Israeli invad-- oops, I mean, kind neighbors -- are actually saving kittens from trees and helping little old Palestinian women cross the street safely. ![[shake head]](graemlins/shakehead.gif)
Want an example? Here's a nice recent one:
quote:
Israeli Helicopters attacked on Monday afternoon, residential areas in the occupied Shaba Farms, in the southern Lebanon wounding two women.
You see, there's a funny dichotomy in the world today. If you kill people with a bomber, you're a military superpower. But if you kill people with a homemade bomb, you're a terrorist scumbag. See how that works?
Israel started this shit. Palestine is defending themselves from invasion as best they can, given Israel's superior force of arms (mostly supplied by the United States). If your home were being invaded, and your farms destroyed, and your children kidnapped, by some enemy with tanks and planes and rockets, while all you had was fertilizer, wouldn't you become a "terrorist", too?
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spungo
Member # 1089
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posted January 19, 2005 06:18
I can see what you're saying, Greycat, but I'm not entirely sure I agree.
Both sides have extremists who seem to have no interest in establishing a peaceful, meaningful settlement. Yes the Israeli army is full of callous hot-heads who like nothing more than to bull-doze Palestinian homes regardless of who lives there, and there are also the nutbag 'settlers' who claim that God alone granted them Gaza and the West Bank - the continuing development of Israeli homes in these places is at best insensitive, and at worst criminal.
But, on the other side, what should a nation do when it is being constantly fired at with Hammas rockets, and where no civilians feel safe getting on a city bus? The nutters on the Palestinian side still demand the eradication of the state of Israel - and whilst one may think that the creation of this state was undertaken with precarious ethics, the fact remains that the country is there, now, and everyone in the Middle East is obligated to accept this - no matter what side they're on.
The situation isn't black & white - there are morons and whackos on both sides, and seemingly little will by the bulk of the citizenry to employ common sense.
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magefile
Member # 2918
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posted January 19, 2005 12:23
I agree with spungo. I also think that the majority of the populace (in both Palestine and Israel) would welcome peace; however, both are afraid that if they elect less hardline leaders, that the opposing side will walk all over them.
I was hopeful when I heard that Abbas (aka Abu Mazen) was willing to talk. But now it seems (from some news articles I'm reading) that he doesn't care all that much for talking. Or at least, that he doesn't think that being willing to negotiate is a politically viable strategy for him.
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The Famous Druid
Member # 1769
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posted January 19, 2005 13:01
Leaving aside the actual issues in Palestine for a moment, does anyone else think it ironic that a right wing rant-site like lgf is complaining of lack of journalistic balance?
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jordanv
Member # 3189
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posted January 20, 2005 03:54
Why are we blaming the israeli's - they were offered free land and they took it.
Britain is to blame - a common theme of the 20th century as it panned out.
To say that Palestine should be given to the Jewish people because they once lived there is complete nonsense.
Im Greek - we settled most of the known world.
Give it back now.
or do i have to get Britain to say it to make it ok.
As far as I'm concerned, Israel is a terrorist state and anyone who supports it should face heavy sanctions from the EU.
The Palestinians are doing the only thing they CAN do - fight a cruel guerrilla war and try and force israelis out. Peaceful solutions: never going to happen when your opponents funding is near infinite and have nuclear weapons and backing of the world's super(stupid)power.
One of the races has to get out before they are made extinct by the other.
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spungo
Member # 1089
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posted January 20, 2005 04:03
quote:
Originally posted by jordanv:
Britain is to blame - a common theme of the 20th century as it panned out.
Im Greek - we settled most of the known world.
Huh? Never mind that we liberated your asses in 1945 from the Nazis - ingrate! ... and your football team are just lucky buggers! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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jordanv
Member # 3189
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posted January 20, 2005 04:31
British involvement in the civil war made the Nazi's seem like angels.
The royal family wanted their little playground protected and spilled greek blood to do it.
Yes the soccer team were lucky.
That doesnt make England any more talented..a bunch of thug posers. Bring back Vinnie Jones.
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spungo
Member # 1089
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posted January 20, 2005 04:46
Oh, yeah - there's me thinking the Greek civil war had something to do with Greeks killing Greeks, and the impending threat of Soviet annexation. Gee, I guess a few decades of Russian control would have been a better solution than Greek self-determination.
During the Nazi occupation, Greece was a God damn mess of in-fighting between five or six Communist/pro-Nazi/leftists/whatever factions - the country couldn't even unify itself to repel the Germans. Churchill sought to liberate the place and instill a stable government - with the hope that this might prevent the Russians moving in - do you honestly believe that would have been a better outcome?
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jordanv
Member # 3189
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posted January 20, 2005 05:00
You seem to forget that the Russians never supported the Communist Parties of Turkey, Yugoslavia or Greece.
The British and Americans enforced a dictatorship. This unstable dictatorship led directly to the Junta of 1967.
Greece was worse off with Allied "liberation" than with the Nazi's.
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spungo
Member # 1089
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posted January 20, 2005 06:22
The Junta was supported by Washington, not London. Britain's role in Greece since the civil war has been solely to protect the people of Cyprus - i.e., to curtail the Greek Cypriot atrocities against the Turkish Cypriots (which, in case you did't know, were quite horrendous). Also, the need to prevent an Enosis - which would have led to the deaths of thousands of Turks. And, Britain tried its hardest to prevent all-out war with Turkey which was looming time after time. I don't know what history books you've been reading, but that sounds like an attempt to sustain peace to me - something Greece itself had no interest in.
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garlicguy
Member # 3166
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posted January 20, 2005 06:54
quote:
Originally posted by jordanv:
Im Greek - we settled most of the known world.
Hi jordanv,
"Settled"? Hmmmmm. What did *that* look like? Certainly not an armed invasion? "Most of the known world"? Get over yourself. In the millennia since Greece's high water mark, the remaining 95% of the world has come to the attention of Greece, which admittedly should be considered the seat of civilization. (No pun intended).
Ahem. Actually jordanv, you are 18yo and reflect the passion of that point in life. Reviewing your posts on this subject, your logic seems to go something like this: a) I believe I have interpreted what I've read and heard correctly; b) all other opinions are null and void; c) you all need to listen to me or I'll get really mad.
Now, since that is how your argument comes across, what exactly is the high ground you are trying to claim here? That it's your turn to play king-of-the-mountain? Following that logic, it seems silly to criticize the super powers forcing their agendas onto other countries, since you obviously would like to do the same. FWIW
And if that doesn't work, spray a little Windex on it.
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jordanv
Member # 3189
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posted January 20, 2005 07:24
Actually, im saying the opposite (my sarcasm is often hard to detect).
Israel should not have been created for the reasons they gave which was that the jews had settled there previously - I mean, in Mein Kampf Hitler actually said he intended to settle the Jews there to let them fight with the arabs. It was the wrong move - these people have been enemies for a very long time and its not going to go away. Who's worse? the fool? or the fools that implement his ideas after spending years eliminating him and his ideology.
Also, i think my grandparents and parents who lived through the dictatorship, civil war and nazi rule of Greece have more authority to comment on the issue than someone who wasn't there.
Yes, Britain ran out of funding so the U.S took over. Strangely enough, a teacher from my school was actually there during the war, and had the unfortunate experience of having a tank turret aimed at her - luckily she was saved by her blonde hair. She heard someone from the tank yell out "Oh my god she is an American". Britain must accept some of the blame for the disaster that is modern day Greece - not to mention buying fenced goods(Elgin marbles anyone?) from Turkey.
America..well they have always been whacko when it came to threats to "freedom, democracy, and the national interest".
As for a war with Turkey..well..400 years of slavery and massacres...This war has been going on in various forms since the First Persian war of 482 BC. Only now are things looking like they might change for the better although Turkey's support of Israel and lack of support from arabic countries is a point of contention.
As for the whole issue of Cyprus - isnt something like 60% of the GDP which comes from drugs,gambling and prostitution.
The EU has serious issues to face, especially now with Turkey and Israel.
Don't ever underestimate racism; Greece has for a long long time been antisemitic (something i dont share). The Pro-Arab bias is incredible. As far as I know, Greece has been the only country to receive an apology from the Palestinians for a terrorist attack. yet again, Athens airport was(and still is) a haven for terrorists who have no problems getting through armed. Just look at the opening ceremony of the Athens Olympics - the three countries to draw no cheers: Israel, Yugoslavia and America(except for the Americans present, it was obvious that no Greeks were cheering). Hell, even Turkey got a pretty good cheer.
It is my opinion that had Greece become communist, it would have failed and a proper democracy would have formed from its ashes. what we have today is a bunch of idealists pressuring for socialist policies. Left wing economics simply can not work; in the material world, greed rules.
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littlefish
Member # 966
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posted January 20, 2005 07:57
quote:
Im Greek - we settled most of the known world.
Where is the unknown world hiding?
Seriously dude, whilst Greece may have had some nice contributions to philosophy and stuff, there are 3 major empires that have ever existed, being the Mongolian, Roman and British.
All three lost their power. This teaches us that the world is too big to be ruled by one body, and change is inevitable. Now, go read some more books and learn that every race is populated with nice people and nasty people and that arguing otherwise is what ignorant racist fools do.
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SpikeSpiegel
Member # 1452
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posted January 20, 2005 11:18
quote:
Originally posted by jordanv:
As for a war with Turkey..well..400 years of slavery and massacres...
Hundreds of years of oppression was exactly why the Zionist Movement to sprang forth in Europe and ended up in Britain giving the Jews the land of Palestine. Why the Jews chose miserable Palestine and not the hot latin american girls of Argentina is beyond me.
At this point in time, I do agree with the general consensus however that both sides are filled with nut cases and I believe that peace in Israel will never occur until all the nut cases on both sides are shot
What interests me as well is why the Palestinians haven't tried non violent protest and the like, it worked for Gandhi and MLK, it can work for them.
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Xanthine
Member # 736
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posted January 20, 2005 11:47
Spike, you've about summed up my position on Palestine and Israel.
The other option is wrap a fence around the whole region and let them fight it out. Sorta like a caged match but on a grander scale.
The thing with these situations (Israelis vs. Palestinians, Turks vs. Greeks, Serbs vs. the rest of the Balkans, etc.) is that so much blood has been shed on both sides that you can't even figure out who started what and who owes who now. At this point, it would be far better to just bury the hatchet, but the fanatics won't let that happen. I'm willing to bet money that your average Israeli and your average Palestinian would love to reconcile. But there's a small but violent and vocal minority that won't let that ever happen.
BTW, jordanv, Yugoslavia does not exist anymore.
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jordanv
Member # 3189
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posted January 20, 2005 18:55
quote:
Originally posted by littlefish:
Where is the unknown world hiding?
Seriously dude, whilst Greece may have had some nice contributions to philosophy and stuff, there are 3 major empires that have ever existed, being the Mongolian, Roman and British.
All three lost their power. This teaches us that the world is too big to be ruled by one body, and change is inevitable. Now, go read some more books and learn that every race is populated with nice people and nasty people and that arguing otherwise is what ignorant racist fools do.
No one ever said the British Empire wasn't great. The imposition of one culture on any other is ALWAYS going to be evil and lead to hate/violence. The Greeks started the tradition - there were Greeks and Barbarians, a straight racial dividing line. The Romans continued it. The Mongols..well..no one needs to be told they were violent. Empires based on dominance never have and never will work. THAT is my point.
For the last time, the Greeks conquering the whole world was a joke. Notice the word 'known".
I don't know where you get off saying Greece wasn't a great empire.. never heard of Alexander of Macedon?
Yugoslavia: Yes it doesnt exist, but Macedonia shouldnt. They are a slavic race with slavic culture and slavic language. How could they be Greek? Look at a map of Greece and you will find Alexander's birthplace of Macedon.
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The Famous Druid
Member # 1769
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posted January 21, 2005 03:16
Don't worry Jordanv, I got the joke.
Sometimes you have to explain humour carefully for the septics.
The canadians are all too busy shivering in the entrails of a recently disembowled caribou to find anything much funny at the moment.
And the poms don't understand any joke that doesn't involve arses, tory politicians in schoolgirl outfits, or sheep (preferably all 3).
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garlicguy
Member # 3166
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posted January 21, 2005 07:02
jordanv:
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
Don't worry Jordanv, I got the joke.
Sorry, I didn't. ![[Frown]](frown.gif) Perhaps you wouldn't mind using the occasional emoticon when being sarcastic until some of us (read: this old geezer) get to know your online personna a bit better.
Sometimes you have to explain humour carefully for the septics.
TFD:
If "septics" is not a misspelling, kindly explain for those of us who are less enlightened. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
And finally, TFD, if you two get any chummier, we're going to recommend you get a room. Aussies... Whew boy! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Serenak
Member # 2950
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posted January 21, 2005 07:44
No he hasn't misspelt it
It's rhyming slang "septic tank" = "Yank"
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garlicguy
Member # 3166
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posted January 21, 2005 13:07
quote:
Originally posted by Serenak:
No he hasn't misspelt it
It's rhyming slang "septic tank" = "Yank"
Thanks Serenak. Not being exposed to nor adept at rhyming slang, I would have been wondering what 'skeptics' TFD was talking about. ![[blush]](graemlins/blush.gif)
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Xanthine
Member # 736
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posted January 21, 2005 14:25
/me kicks back and waits for Balkan Wars Part 987654321 unfold.
I'm an American mutt. Part Norwegian, part Scottish, part Irish, part English, part French and god knows what else; part Sioux if the family rumors are true. If I wanted to hate someone based on my blood, I'd be hating my own relations. So like many Americans, these deep-seated ethnic hatreds are very very difficult for me to understand.
The Greeks living in Greece aren't even the same ethnic group that built ancient Greece (of which Alexander the Great was part). Jeez.
We live in a different world now. Clannishness and nationalism gets you nothing but bloodshed and UN sanctions. And the formal name for Macedonia is The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. I suppose the part of Macedonia that's part of Greece could try to break away and join the rest of Macedonia, or the rest of Macedonia could try to invade, but the rest of Macedonia is currently trying to make nice with Albania because there are currently more Albanians than Macedonians in Macedonia and god help Macedonia if someone decides to build a Greater Albania. Why can't people just bite the bullet and focus on the now instead of the then???
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TMBWITW,PB
Member # 1734
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posted January 21, 2005 14:39
quote:
Originally posted by garlicguy:
quote:
Originally posted by Serenak:
No he hasn't misspelt it
It's rhyming slang "septic tank" = "Yank"
Thanks Serenak. Not being exposed to nor adept at rhyming slang, I would have been wondering what 'skeptics' TFD was talking about.
Reminds me of Goldmember
Nigel: I could've had it away with this cracking Julie, my old China.
Austin: Are you telling pork pies in a bag of trout, because if you are feeling quiddly, why not just have a Jay Arthur?
Nigel: What, Billy no-mates?
Austin: Too right, youth.
Nigel: Don't you remember the Crimbough din-din we had with the grotty Scotchman?
Austin: Oh, the one that was all sixes and sevens!
Nigel: Yeah, she was the traveling strife with the Morris dancer that lived up the apples and pears.
Austin: Yes, she was the barrister that became a bobbie in a lorry [mumbles] with a gattling gun, in a bottle of St. Regis . . .
Both: . . . in a tea kettle! And then she shat on a turtle!
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The Famous Druid
Member # 1769
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posted January 21, 2005 16:09
quote:
Originally posted by garlicguy:
And finally, TFD, if you two get any chummier, we're going to recommend you get a room. Aussies... Whew boy!
Are you suggesting I like a little greek now and then?
Not that there's anything wrong with that !
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jordanv
Member # 3189
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posted January 22, 2005 00:47
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
The Greeks living in Greece aren't even the same ethnic group that built ancient Greece (of which Alexander the Great was part). Jeez.
Yes and no. There is no such thing as a 'Greek'. There are several ethnic groups that are highly distinct.
Firstly, Peloponnesian Greeks - who are much closer to the Ancient Greeks of their region as interbreeding has been limited (except for Albanians - my grandfather's village all spoke albanian as a main language and Greek as a second language yet still regarded themselves as 'Greek').
Then we have the Northern Greeks of Macedonia/Thrace who are related through interbreeding to the slavic races and the Albanians.
Finally the Ionian Greeks (of which I can be regarded). We have the least Greek in us in terms of classical blood. Ionian Greek blood is basically a mix of Turkish, Persian, Arab, Jewish and Slavic Blood.
Basically, the Ancient Greeks bred themselves almost out of existence.
What we really need is increased EU pressure to form unified states, which are a step closer to the goal of a unified Europe.
Greek and Turkish relations are at the present moment the best they have ever been. The pressure to crucify Turkey over Cyprus comes mainly from Peloponnesian Greeks (who regard themselves as 'true' Greeks).
Hell the majority of Peloponnesian Greeks living in Greece won't talk to me because I am what they regard as "a turkish jew".
The Baltic region has much more in common than it wants to admit -its the hardliners of each race who are causing the real problems.
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