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Message: HTML is not enabled. UBB Code™ is enabled.	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Xanthine: [QB] Some food for thought... Parts of this thread are reminding me of discussions I've had with labmates, both male and female. The general consensus is that the sterotypical girlie things, such as shaving legs, applying make-up, styling your hair, and submitting to fashion trends are not enforced by men, encouraged by men, nor done for the pleasure of men. The pressure is really coming from othr women. It's a subtle game we play with each other, a subtle game of eroding other women's confidence in themselves and thereby eliminating them from the competition for mates and jobs and so on. It's so subtle most of us aren't even aware of it, so subtle that even if we are aware we don't realize how often we're falling victim to it. Boo's comments about finding certain womn unattractive were bothersome to me until I realized that, honestly, what do I care about being attractive to boo? Or anyone really? There're the attraction standards of society that we all buy into at some point in some way, but, truth be told, the rules of attraction are as wide and diverse as the people who make friends and/or fall in love. And, while discussing hobbies and genders, here's a story to chew over. I do aikido. I've been doing it since I was twelve. I have a second degree black belt. These days, I don't train much. And this is why. I grew up in a dojo with a "hot mat". Once you had reached a certain level of skill, you were expected to give and receive hard fast throws. This was espcially true for the younger, less-injured crowd. Men and women were held to that standard. There weren't many women in th dojo, but that's another story. I myself never felt unwelcome. I would somtimes b the only girl on th mat, but that nver made me uncomfortable. And I was/am flexible and reckless enough to take very hard and fast falls without batting an eye. Then I went to where I am now. I attend a famous dojo led by a famous instructor. And there is a double-standard here. The women are not expected to give or receive the sam level of throws the men are. We are not supposed to give or receive a good pounding. It took me a while to catch on. I'm lazy, so I don't fall or throw any harder than I have to (the garbage in, garbage out principle - attack me like you're going to kill me and I'll throw you like I don't want you to kill me, attack me like a limp rag and I'll throw you like a limp rag). As a result, I just got kinda mopey that I couldn't train like I used to. And then one day I started to notice what was happening, and my brother did as well. So one day, before class, he just out and out attacked me, and we spent a good five or ten minutes tussling before class was called to order. But we thrashed each other good, and for a while after I started to stand up for my own abilities and right to be held to the same standard. And then I started getting nudgd into line by....wait for it...the ranking dojo women. Not the men. The women. They liked their double-standard. They were enforcing their double-standard. And I've been getting this unwelcome vibe. So I've cut way back on the aikido. It sucks, because aikido was good for my soul. But the atmosphere wasn't. It can suck to be a chick. It can suck even harder to be a chick who won't conform. Too bad it's the only game in town. One final qustion: what and who defines what is masculine and feminine, anyway? Beyond, the standard biological traits, that is. [/QB][/QUOTE]